rhyrlik Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 As soon as I saw the new 2004 VV reloading guide, I rushed to my local dealer to purchase a can of 3n38. I was inrtigued with the possibility of achieving 1200 fps. with 147gr. bullets in the 9mm luger pistol. I got the powder and attempted to load a batch of rounds from 6-7grs. I quickly discovered that 7 grs. is way too much powder for the 9mm case. It simply cannot be compressed down far enough to allow the round to fit a magazine. Well, it is possible with some bullet nose deformation. Since I did not want any bullet nose deformation, for accuracy's sake, I decided to settle on 6.6 grains as a physical maximum. This allowed me to load a Speer 147 grain Gold Dot to 1.150" without any bullet nose deformation. Last night, I tried the loads at my local range, without my chrony, for accuracy testing. The test platform was a stock S&W 5906. All loads from 6.4grs. to 6.6grs. shot well with all major brand primers. There were no pressure issues. The best ten-shot group occurred with 6.4 grains and a Winchester SP primer. This group was slightly over 1" center to center at a distance of 15 yards. The worst of the good groups was 1.75" C-T-C. I think that's pretty good. The best part was that I was shooting 147 grain bullets as fast as standard 115 grain factory loads, and I made major power factor in a 5906 of all guns. While I did not chrono the load, I am under the impression that it exceeded 1100 fps. The recoil and the VV manual indicate so. I'll chrono the load later this week and provide the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 I clocked that load yesterday and recorded a very disappointing 1025 fps. I thought it was doing at least 1100 fps. At least it is more accurate than any 147 factory out there. Oh well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 What length barrel does the 5906 have? Also, I'm trying to compare what velocity I could get from my gun. Have you shot any 147's loaded w/ 310 or 320? If so what velocity and charge weight did you use for those? Thanks Seth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 My 5906 has a 4 inch barrel. I haven't tried 310 and 320 with the 147's for fear of pressure spikes. I tried 330, 340, and 3N37. All I could get was 925 fps with 3N37 at the same accuracy level. 330 and 340 were closer to 900 fps. 3N38 was supposed to be the ticket for 9mm major, but not in a 4" gun. I could increase the powder and crush the bullet nose, but what would be the point in that? Maybe a 147gr. TMJ would work better? More case capacity at the same COAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwt Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Try HS-6 with 147's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 HS-6 maxes out 100 fps slower than my "reduced" 3N38 target load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Hi Rhyrlik, Try HS6 with a 124gr projectile. I get 1360 fps with a .355 124gr at 1.135" OAL over 8.6 gr of WW540 which is pretty much the same powder as HS6 (I will be switching to HS6 when I run out of 540). This is not a compressed load and I have been shooting it in a Glock for about a year now with great results. DO NOT just duplicate this load without working up to it carefully over a chrono! I don't see you having much luck trying to stuff enough powder under a 147 without compressing the heck out of it. I gave up on the heavies for 9major for the very same reason. I farted around with the VV powders a little but went to a well established 9major loading recipe because of the lousy results the VV powders gave me. The WW540 and 124-130 grain projectile major 9 route is a well trod path that was very popular back in the early nineties for 9x21 major in P9's. This is safe territory because it has been thoroughly explored before. Any other powder and bullet weight choice and you are definitely on your own. Do be careful, especially in a short barrel. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 George, try any hs7 with 124's? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 George,try any hs7 with 124's? John Hi John, Nope, already had some 540, and knew lots of folks who ran P9's so thats where I went immediately after striking out with 147's over AA7, VV3N38 & VV340. I also tried AA7 under a 124, just couldn't get enough in the case to get over 1300 fps. AA5 might have done the trick, but I figured the 540/HS6 route was the same path so thats where I went. The way I figure it for 9major, you look at what works with a specific bullet weight in a Super, and then you try that bullet weight with a slightly faster powder than what works in the Super to achieve a smaller powder volume for similar pressure in a shorter OAL. Basically a medium to slightly fast speed powder that is just getting packed down (not compressed), under a light projectile (124gr-135gr) will be the most efficient loading for this cartridge. This type of load should work well with a 4" bbl too. Shorter the bbl, the sooner the burning needs to be done. When you are working with short cartridge cases and magazine limited OAL's the case for faster powders under lighter bullets is made real well, real fast. Ya' just gotta be real careful! -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 I know that dwt make major with HS-6 with bullet weights from 124's to 147's in the Glock length (less than 1.160) 9mm's. No pressure signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 15, 2004 Author Share Posted February 15, 2004 Thanks George, What length barrel are you using in the Glock? I know that Glock polygonal rifling and chamber configuration are good for around 75 fps over conventional rifling in a given length barrel. My concern is pressure, because the load you cite is 1.7 grains over published max. Are you using the 17L? All my info shows a max of 6.5 grains with the 124 grain bullets at 1.135" COAL. Quoted velocities are in the low 1100 fps range from 4" barrels. This is at 35000 PSI. I iterpret this as giving low 1200 fps velocities from a 4" Glock barrel. Now, 8.2 grains may give me 1350 fps, but the gun may not hold. My 3N38 pressure readings fall within standard factory levels, per case head expansion measurements. How does your major load read? Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 What length barrel are you using in the Glock? It's a 17L with a 6.25" Barsto bbl. It is ported for the last 2.5 inches and I get a lot of gas bleed there. A 4" bbl will get similar results to a longer ported bbl. More important is the amount of case support your bbl gives and whether the headspace is adequate. It is also almost a certainty that a different spring rate will be needed to alllow reliable cycling at a higher PF than the gun was set up for originally. All my info shows a max of 6.5 grains with the 124 grain bullets at 1.135" COAL. Quoted velocities are in the low 1100 fps range from 4" barrels. This is at 35000 PSI. I interpret this as giving low 1200 fps velocities from a 4" Glock barrel. Now, 8.2 grains may give me 1350 fps, but the gun may not hold. If you are trying for major PF (1200fps x 147gr = 176PF), then it's a certainty that you will be exceeding all 9mm published max loads and the SAAMI pressure max. Nothing new here, you have to work it up over a chrono and watch the pressure sign anytime you take something up a notch, or Bam! (sorry Emeril). The 147 tests all showed some primer flow before 170pf, the 124gr load doesn't show the same pressure sign until 180pf and above. My 3N38 pressure readings fall within standard factory levels, per case head expansion measurements. How does your major load read I watch primers and they are not flowing, blowing or otherwise looking like there is a problem at 170pf. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 George, 17L with Bar-Sto ported barrel? That brings back some memories. I had a 24 with a KKM 357 Sig barrel. But I broke it. That is why I am overly cautious. I definitely will try your load, with a heavier recoil spring of course, and hopefully won't blow myself up. I think the 9mm+P+ pressure limit is 40000 psi, so I have some room to grow. As far as accuracy is concerned, can you match my 1" 15-yard group? Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I haven't tried it at 15 yards for accuracy, but I get about 3" off bags at 30 yards. I'm a lousy group shooter with a pistol though. Remember to lop 20 to 25 percent off of any load to start testing and only move up 2 tenths at a time. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 16, 2004 Author Share Posted February 16, 2004 I'm not going to let this 3N38 thing go, I'll try a 147 grain solid with 7 grains and see if VV is lying. I don't know how they were able to stuff 6.9 grs under the 147gr. XTP at 1.142 COAL. Incidentally, the max COAL with that bullet in a S&W is 1.125", otherwise the round won't chamber. Hey, but I won't have to worry about crimping either;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I used to push 147 JHPs to 1200 fps with HS6 or W540. I got 950 fps with N330 and I wasn't even trying to go fast. 3N38 is probably too slow. P.S. No way does Glock rifling give 75 fps more velocity than standard rifled barrels of the same length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 A while back I tried to duplicate the old VV data with 3N37, which was a 147gr at 1152fps. Here what I actually clocked: 147gr Gold Dot, OAL = 1.155 +/- 0.005, new Starline cases, WSP 3N37 5.0gr < 954> 922 (15.0) 3N37 5.2gr < 990> 951 ( 9.0) 3N37 5.4gr <1026> 967 ( 7.0) 3N37 5.6gr <1062> 979 (15.0) - up to here, no flattening 3N37 5.7gr <1080> 1012 ( 8.0) - here on, a little flattening 3N37 5.8gr <1098> 1033 (11.0) 3N37 5.9gr <1116> 1056 ( 6.7) notice about 60fps under published values * Why is this so slow ?! Number in brackets is the expected value interpolated from VV data (they listed 5.6gr and 6.1gr at 36300psi). -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted February 17, 2004 Author Share Posted February 17, 2004 I'm beginning to suspect that drawn jacketed bullets can be pushed to a higher velocity than plated bullets. That is why Speer bullets go 50-100 fps slower than Hornadys with the same powder charge. Glock polygonal rifling is also in some way responsible for the faster speeds. Polygonal rifling is known to allow higher velocities in rifles as well. In 308, for example, a 22 inch barrel produces similar velocities to conventionally rifled 26" barrels. Glock 9mm chambers are also much tighter than S&W and Sig chambers, further contributing to the increase in velocity. 3N38 isn't too slow, in my opinion. Rather, it is on the slow side for 9mm loading. VV lists a 6.9 grain load with the 147 XTP at 1200 fps. I wasn't able to reach that speed, but my CHRONY may be at fault as well. The battery is 2 years old. I'll repeat the experiment with a 147 FMJ or TMJ at 7grs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 George, I went out to the local range today with reloader in tow. I came up with some interesting results with 4 good powders. I started out with the old standby 3n37 I made major at 7.6 at1.135" The primers were a litle flat so I decided to abandon this powder as a presure risk. The next powder I tried was 3n38 .I clocked 1325 at 8.4 but noticed a 70 fps increase at 8.5 . I tried this test twice with the same results.I suspect that the presure is on the high side with such a spike so I have abandoned 3n38 as well. The next powder was hs 6 as you recomended. 7.9 gave me a nice 170 pf and the gun was very flat .The dot tracked well up a little and back to 0 no dip no ocilation. one thing I did notice is the gun hits a little hard in the hand. I was very impresed with this powder. I have set this aside for further shooting. All indicators say that the presure are at an exceptible level. Here is where the real surprise came in.I next tried hs7 I came up with a 9.2 grn load that clocks in at 1350 with 125's at 1.135"wsp I was surprised that this powder not only was flat but also very soft in the hand With a strong grip the dot barly moved and the only way I can describe it is That It hit like my 22magnum in the hand that is very soft indeed. All the above loads were shot thru a 5 " glock barreled open blaster in9 mm also as a comparitive mesure they were also shot thru a comander length sti open gun . both felt similar with results at 25 to 40 fps slower for the comander. also as a second control two cronos were used one an f1 chrony and the other a ced my quest is about over I will try blue dot next as the slow and dense powders seem to be the way to go . I like a dense powder because when reloading on my 650 I dont want powder spilling all over the place. John Nagel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenavd Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 When you were working with the hs7 were there any signs of pressure? Was the load compressed or was there space left in the case? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Mad, My buddy has seen nice results with HS6 and the Open Glock 9. I have wondered about HS7... If you are going to try Blue Dot...can you try to slip some AA7 in there also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 one thing I did notice is the gun hits a little hard in the hand. I was very impresed with this powder. I have set this aside for further shooting.All indicators say that the presure are at an exceptible level Hi John, Yeah, it is a snappy little powder I kinda like it that way though. It hits the web of my hand hard, but it also gives me a fast dot recovery (I use WW540 right now, but HS6 is pretty much the same thing). Absolutely acceptable pressure at 170 PF (1360fps with 124gr JHP). The softer inpulse of HS7 sounds interesting, I am guessing that a 9.2gr charge was compressed a bit. When I was testing I found that 8.9gr of WW540 was just compressed at the OAL I have to use (1.135"). It gave me a 1410fps average and was starting to flow the primers into the striker hole pretty noticeably (Federal SP100). -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Hey Flex, I tried to get AA7 to work at first because I use it in Super, but it's a dead end in a Glock with anything but heavy bullets. It takes 10 to 10.5 grains to move a Super out major (at 1.250" OAL). I couldn't get more than 9.0 in the case at 1.155" with a 124 and this was compressed big time. It got me 1280-1290, not good enough. 7.5-8gr of AA7 gets major with a 147 depending on your OAL and bbl length. I ran major 9x21, uncomped for a little while way back before Limited Division and the .40 rule. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 George, Flex The hs 7 load was not compresed at all.The heal of the bullet just settles the powder down a touch . I am sure that you could get more in the case withy a compressed load .A full case weights @14 grains. As far as dot recovery I found that the dot was usualy waitin on me I ran the load over the plate rack and informal testing with several "good " shooters yielded positive results. The powder is very dense so loading on a progresive is nice as powder stays in the case. Keep yall posted Johnnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 George, Thanks for the heads up on AA7. Mad S., Thanks for the info on the HS7. I'll eventually need something to try (I still have a jug of SP2, but when that is gone...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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