Multi String Range Commands

[Cy Soto]

I'm just illustrating how requiring ULASC puts it back to "same" from the previous COF.

I certainly understand your point and I am not trying to argue against it. I have RO'd several shooters who have insisted in unloading their firearms between strings so that they can perform their "Make Ready" routine the same way every time. I have no problem with this and I am sure most other RO's won't either.

[Lee King]

Lee is correct in stating that you are still "in" the COF while doing so

If that's the case are we breaking 8.2.5? I'm guessing no because of "they may re-holster etc." But for arguments sake I'm focusing on the "require" part.

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun

after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided

this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded

or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

If it's not the case are we in violation of 5.2.1 and 5.2.2?

5.2.1 Carry and Storage Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty

magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone

found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range

Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective

action shall be made

Let me say I'm not against the practice. Nor do I think it's unsafe. The OP asked about procedures and the range lawyer in me started thinking of rules issues with strings and the back to back hot COFs. The incident I mentioned made me specifically think of 2 areas and I'm just debating the rules:

First, safety. Without defined procedures the risk of problems is higher (perhaps only slightly) because we're talking about hot guns. Second, we get outside of a few rules. If I were involved in an incident resulting in a DQ such as an event staff bumping me causing my gun to drop out, I would be tempted to argue the legality of the practice and stages in the first place expecting to lose but arguing nonetheless in a feeble attempt to stay in the competition.

It just seems an easy fix would be to require ULASC. This solves rules questions and takes away procedural differences with minimal impact to the practice and need for back to back COFs. Same thing with strings. A simple definition of the end of string would prevent range lawyers like me from arguing.

I'm an MD and I haven't had the need yet to do so. But, I would strongly recommend it to the RO's if it came up. Especially at a championship match where the fewer rules debates the better.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Lee King

[SA Friday]

I thought the rulebook used the word "unloaded" but I was mistaken. But if you are moving hot from a previous stage, you will still be hot to take a sight picture. While not against the rules, it is outside of a lot of people's normal make ready routine. I could see someone taking a sight picture and dropping the hammer. Yes they would be DQ'd and deservedly so. My point being, that you are already loaded changes the circumstances of this COF from any other. I'm splitting hairs on whether this is "fair" or not. We as shooters should be able to roll with it. BUT.. I'm just illustrating how requiring ULASC puts it back to "same" from the previous COF.

Lee, not trying to pick on you here, but ultimately everyone is responsible for their actions. The RO is responsible for their actions, and someone with a loaded gun is definately responsible for their action, especially with a loaded gun. If I have a shooter who wants to ULASC and then MR at the next stage or string, fine with me. Most shooters are comfortable enough to load for the next string or stage and move around with a loaded firearm in their holster.

Thousands of shooters deal with this issue every weekend without getting confused because we don't have a standardized range command for this. I see no reason to standardize a range command for this. I would recommend each RO think about this though and come up with something that fits and stick with it consistantly. It help when you have to deviate from the normal and address the unique. So far from this thread, I really like "If finsished, make ready for your next string/stage," and plan on using it consistantly in the future. It asks the shooter if they are done shooting, and if so, prepare appropriately for the next string of fire or stage (if appropriate).

[mactiger]

Lee is correct in stating that you are still "in" the COF while doing so

If that's the case are we breaking 8.2.5? I'm guessing no because of "they may re-holster etc." But for arguments sake I'm focusing on the "require" part.

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun

after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided

this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded

or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

If it's not the case are we in violation of 5.2.1 and 5.2.2?

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty

magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone

found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range

Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective

action shall be made

Let me say I'm not against the practice. Nor do I think it's unsafe. The OP asked about procedures and the range lawyer in me started thinking of rules issues with strings and the back to back hot COFs. The incident I mentioned made me specifically think of 2 areas and I'm just debating the rules:

First, safety. Without defined procedures the risk of problems is higher (perhaps only slightly) because we're talking about hot guns. Second, we get outside of a few rules. If I were involved in an incident resulting in a DQ such as an event staff bumping me causing my gun to drop out, I would be tempted to argue the legality of the practice and stages in the first place expecting to lose but arguing nonetheless in a feeble attempt to stay in the competition.

It just seems an easy fix would be to require ULASC. This solves rules questions and takes away procedural differences with minimal impact to the practice and need for back to back COFs. Same thing with strings. A simple definition of the end of string would prevent range lawyers like me from arguing.

I'm an MD and I haven't had the need yet to do so. But, I would strongly recommend it to the RO's if it came up. Especially at a championship match where the fewer rules debates the better.

RE: the three rules you cited---No, No, and No. No violations of any of those rules, because the competitor is under the supervision of the RO, and must follow the stage procedure by re-holstering. We are not requiring him to do that under the clock, and the 5.2 section rules refer to handgun carry outside the COF.

As for the rest, why complicate things?

Troy

[Lee King]

Lee is correct in stating that you are still "in" the COF while doing so

If that's the case are we breaking 8.2.5? I'm guessing no because of "they may re-holster etc." But for arguments sake I'm focusing on the "require" part.

8.2.5 A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun

after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided

this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded

or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1.

If it's not the case are we in violation of 5.2.1 and 5.2.2?

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety

area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range

Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case,

gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see

Rule 10.5.1).

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty

magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone

found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range

Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective

action shall be made

Let me say I'm not against the practice. Nor do I think it's unsafe. The OP asked about procedures and the range lawyer in me started thinking of rules issues with strings and the back to back hot COFs. The incident I mentioned made me specifically think of 2 areas and I'm just debating the rules:

First, safety. Without defined procedures the risk of problems is higher (perhaps only slightly) because we're talking about hot guns. Second, we get outside of a few rules. If I were involved in an incident resulting in a DQ such as an event staff bumping me causing my gun to drop out, I would be tempted to argue the legality of the practice and stages in the first place expecting to lose but arguing nonetheless in a feeble attempt to stay in the competition.

It just seems an easy fix would be to require ULASC. This solves rules questions and takes away procedural differences with minimal impact to the practice and need for back to back COFs. Same thing with strings. A simple definition of the end of string would prevent range lawyers like me from arguing.

I'm an MD and I haven't had the need yet to do so. But, I would strongly recommend it to the RO's if it came up. Especially at a championship match where the fewer rules debates the better.

RE: the three rules you cited---No, No, and No. No violations of any of those rules, because the competitor is under the supervision of the RO, and must follow the stage procedure by re-holstering. We are not requiring him to do that under the clock, and the 5.2 section rules refer to handgun carry outside the COF.

As for the rest, why complicate things?

Troy

I get for strings we're under the same COF. But back to back stages I'm missing that. You couldn't allow a competitor to walk from one bay to another hot (or could you?)

Based on that premise, I thought it was simplifying things.

[mactiger]

You could, but you'd have to supervise and accompany him the whole time. It's all about whether the competitor is under RO supervision or not. And, by supervision, I mean actively observing and directing competitor actions, not just standing there looking at him. (Too many people do that already.)

That's essentially what the interim commands are all about--RO supervision.

Troy

[Lee King]

You could, but you'd have to supervise and accompany him the whole time. It's all about whether the competitor is under RO supervision or not. And, by supervision, I mean actively observing and directing competitor actions, not just standing there looking at him. (Too many people do that already.)

That's essentially what the interim commands are all about--RO supervision.

Troy

Troy, Please understand I'm not trying to being argumentative. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the rules and reasons why some apply and some don't. I have done hot back to back COFs and don't have a problem with it. As a new MD I'm trying to understand the intracacies so I can better apply them to my matches.

With strings, it's part of the same COF. "Interim Commands" are used in defining how commands in relation to strings. So I get that.

Where I'm not following is in the case of back to back COF or Stages. The rules say Make Ready is the beginning of a COF and Range is Clear is the end. When the shooter finishes the 1st COF, we never "end" it because we allow them to walk to the next COF without the ULASC and ultimately Range is Clear. So can we call the 2nd stage a separate COF? Or am I making a bad leap from range commands to the definition of COF?

In MY mind, this should be analagous to walking from stage X in one bay to stage Y in another and all of the match rules should apply 5.2.1, 5.2.2 etc. Or rather, what allows you (in the rules) to walk from Stage X to Stage Y hot under RO supervision? Is this a case of "it doesn't say you can't therefore..."

[mactiger]

You are following pretty well, Lee.

With two stages on one bay, it's common practice to make ready for one and then go to the other one "hot", supervised by the RO. We've all done that. In that case, you are correct: the COF begins with Make Ready on stage "X", and is still "in effect" so to speak while the competitor moves to the other stage. It's analagous to strings, in that each string is a separately timed portion of a course of fire. Imagine a standards where you move forward for each string. The rules state that the competitor cannot be allowed to leave the start position with a loaded gun, unless he's under the direct supervision of an RO. That rule applies for each string in a standards as I listed above, and it also applies for movement from one course to another in a single bay. It would also apply if the RO wanted to accompany a competitor with a loaded gun from one bay to the next, but I don't see why that would happen. As long as the gun is safely holstered, all safety rules are followed, and the RO is supervising, movement away from the start position is OK. Take a look at 8.3.1.1

On a multi-string standards, with movement forward between strings, the interim commands are issued either before or after the competitors are moved from one box to another. They don't move until the RO says so, and accompanies them. It's the same general thing for movement between stages in a single bay.

It's all a single "course of fire" as far as the safety rules are concerned--if you drop your gun, or it falls out while walking, it's a DQ. It's two separately timed stages with regard to the match operation, but they are usually operated as a single "place to go" relative to the squadding schedule, and the course begins with MR at course "X" and ends with RIC on course "Y".

That concept is sometimes hard for RO's to get used to, and if they prefer to clear one stage and start over on the other, that's fine. There are all kind of reasons for doing one or the other, as you can imagine.

8.3.1.1, 10.5.11 and 10.5.13 are the most relevant rules. 5.2.1 mentions supervision and direct commmand of a Range Officer. All of these allow the RO to directly supervise a competitor moving with a loaded gun.

Hope this clears it up a bit.

Troy

[Skydiver]

A little thread drift here, but still related to multi-string commands and moving hot. I've got two interesting situations:

Situation 1:

While walking from position X to position Y, the shooter draws the gun and starts aiming at targets on the next stage but keeps trigger finger out of the trigger guard, and does not break the 180.

Situation 2:

Shooter has a Ghostholster. While walking from position X to position Y, the shooter as a precaution again a dropped gun keeps his hand around the grip, in case he forgot to lock the holster. Shooter did forget to lock the holster. So while walking he applies just enough pressure to make the gun pop out of the holster. The shooter had full control of the gun the entire time.

In both situations:

Is this a DQ under 10.5.1 for handling a firearm because although the shooter was under the direct supervision of an RO, no direct command was given?

What if the shooter argues that "the COF begins with Make Ready on stage "X", and is still "in effect" so to speak while the competitor moves to the other stage" and therefore allowed to take sight pictures under "Make Ready"?

Or is this perfectly legal but makes (most?) RO's nervous?

For situation 1, apply a procedural as per 8.7.2?

For situation 2, I doubt that this is a DQ for a dropped gun because the shooter had control of the gun the entire time, correct?

Edited August 4, 2010 by Skydiver

[Nik Habicht]

As far as moving shooters hot between stages in the same bay, I've been known to solve the problem this way: I set stage 1 farther from the back berm than stage 2 -- this allows for scoring and taping on stage 1, while stage is being shot downrange. (Yep, shooters are advised to pick a delegate to verify hits...) I also design stage 2 to start with an unloaded gun -- often the gun is on a table, but not always. Solves the problem of moving with a loaded gun (we unload the shooter at the end of Stage 1) eliminates the loading routine on Stage 2, by putting it on the clock.....

[coldchar]

Not saying its not legal, George pointed it out to me early on this chat, just saying in in my opinion it is coaching. Guess we could call it a friendly assist?

Edited August 5, 2010 by coldchar

[Nik Habicht]

Not saying its not legal, George pointed it out to me early on this chat, just saying in in my opinion it is coaching. Guess we could call it a friendly assist?

For consistencies' sake, back when the initial range command was "Load and Make Ready," did you consider that to be coaching? :P

[coldchar]

Not saying its not legal, George pointed it out to me early on this chat, just saying in in my opinion it is coaching. Guess we could call it a friendly assist?

For consistencies' sake, back when the initial range command was "Load and Make Ready," did you consider that to be coaching? :P

I think you have made the arguement for me. For consistency sake, "Load and make ready" as you know, is not the correct command to start. Make ready is. Therefore, when the "Make Ready" command was implemented ,would it not have been more consistent to eliminate the "Load if needed" as an approved example?

Would I consider it coaching, your original question, I think there is a rule saying we are not supposed to tell shooters to load? Now on a Level 1 match with a new shooter, I am quite capable of dropping a hint, such as "do you realy want to start with an empty gun." Now if George was on the line, I would take great glee in him not loading when he could have and would not say a word, just grin to myself. And I like George.

Jim

Edited August 6, 2010 by coldchar

[George Jones]

Now if George was on the line, I would take great glee in him not loading when he could have and would not say a word, just grin to myself. And I like George.

Jim

Hey, I'm not senile..... yet!

[Carmoney]

Whether you intended to or not, all you guys are reinforcing the point I made earlier.

Multi-string stages are nothing but trouble.

I understand they help expedite things at local matches and whatnot--OK, fine. But they should not appear at bigger matches, for all the reasons that have been touched on in this thread.

Or so it seems to me.

[Nemo]

Good original question Cha-Lee and good discussion all.

Since the "LOAD" was eliminated from the "LAMR" command, for consistency with the range commands I avoid using the "reload as necessary" in multi-strings. "If finished MAKE READY for the next string". I believe it offers all the information the RO needs to give the shooter and it's closest to the standard range commands than the crazy ad lib versions like "If you're finished, reload if necessary but don't if not and safely maintain a hot weapon and holster it safely if you so choose... blah, blah, blah"

Edited August 6, 2010 by Nemo

[George Jones]

maintain a hot weapon "

Aaaaarrrrgh!

Oh, no. I'm hearing that screeching again.

[sfchorn]

Good original question Cha-Lee and good discussion all.

Since the "LOAD" was eliminated from the "LAMR" command, for consistency with the range commands I avoid using the "reload as necessary" in multi-strings. "If finished MAKE READY for the next string". I believe it offers all the information the RO needs to give the shooter and it's closest to the standard range commands than the crazy ad lib versions like "If you're finished, reload if necessary but don't if not and safely maintain a hot weapon and holster it safely if you so choose... blah, blah, blah"

I like it. Concise and consistent with the original MR command. I'm going to incorporate this into my range vocabulary.