9mm/glock 34 load data - overload

[INGOglock34]

First I want to thank everyone for putting so much good information out here. I think I have read so much tonight that I have confused myself in what I want to do as a I work on a 9mm load for my Glock 34. I have been loading for 6-12 months and everything so far has been 115fmj and now need to order more bullets. I have been thinking about going to something heavier like 124FMJ but seeing alot of information about 147 grain bullets also. Also seeing some people liking 124JHP over the FMJ. I think I can work out a powder load if I am starting with the right weight bullet. I am just wanting to make a nice accurate load that I have confidence in. I am mostly shooting steel matches but would like to try some other types of local matches. Should I try the 124FMJ as being a good middle of the road weigh or go for the 147fmj? Do the hollow point bullets provide more accuracy? I am also thinking to order from Precesion Delta or Montana Gold. Seem like in 147FMJ both compare to be about the same and more people prefer MG for anything lighter than 147. Once I order something and get a load worked out I will share whatever worked out for me.

Edited June 30, 2010 by INGOglock34

[GForceLizard]

I cannot tell any accuracy difference between Montana Gold and Precision Delta. The Montana Gold are more consistent in their size. My last 2000 PD 124gr FMJ contained a variety of bullets with snubbie noses and pointy noses. They loaded fine but if you measured the OAL from the tip of the bullet there was a variance. The PD shot fine even with this problem. I have not decided if I care enough to pay more for Montana Gold or even more for Zero bullets. All are fine bullets. You need to find what works in your gun and you like. The same applies to weight. You need to try them and decide if you and your gun like 124/125gr or 147gr.

[Rob Tompkins]

The different bullet weights impact the energy in the recoil and how you "feel" the recoil. As you know, PF is a momentum equation (mass X velocity) so all bullets shot at the same PF will have the same momentum, but not the same muzzle energy (1/2 * mass X velocity ^ 2 -- don't forget to divide by 7000 and 32.17 to convert to ft - lbf ). Because heavier bullets can make the same PF at a lower velocity, you get the same PF at a much lower muzzle energy with a heavier bullet.

Remember powder has mass and velocity and thus momentum and muzzle energy as well. Heavier bullets often need less powder to get to the same PF, that helps reduce some of the momentum and muzzle energy as well. Going from 115gr to 147gr bullet at the same PF will be nearly a 22% reduction in muzzle energy, not counting for impacts due to reduced powder. That's the energy and momentum considerations.

The other side of this coin is that because heavy bullets move slower, so does your gun's recoil system and the amount of time you experience the recoil event. That can have a big (if not bigger) impact on how you feel the recoil and your timing for second shots. Also, your grip is probably the biggest variable in this whole system.

I know folks who don't like 147gr bullets moving slow, it disrupts their timing and they prefer the "snap" of 115 gr bullets. Other folks are the other way around.

As others had said, try them out and see what you like best. As to brand, you need to figure out your cost vs consistency criteria.

JHP have no exposed lead at the base, FMJ do. It can make a difference in smoke and barrel leading.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Rob Tompkins

[Hi-Power Jack]

Should I try the 124FMJ as being a good middle of the road weigh or go for the 147fmj? Do the hollow point bullets provide more accuracy?

I've tried working up a load (with little time) and have noticed

that SO FAR in my testing, my gun prefers the 147 grains in terms

of accuracy - big difference in my gun with the loads I've worked

up - so, for now, I'm staying with 147's in my gun until I can find

an accurate load with lighter bullets.

And, I love the gentle push of the 147's vs the lighter bullets.

Years ago I switched from 115's to 125's and could see an "improvement"

for me in a softer recoil with the heavier bullets, but I had not tried

the 147's until last year. Love them.

Good luck with Your Gun.

[RePete]

I only load 147's for my 9mm's. A much more of push than a snap.

147gr AIM or Frontier Plated

3.9gr/Unique or 3.6gr/N320

Unique gives me a PF od 137 and N320 gives a PF of 133.

Accuracy and feel is the same.

[G-ManBart]

First I want to thank everyone for putting so much good information out here. I think I have read so much tonight that I have confused myself in what I want to do as a I work on a 9mm load for my Glock 34. I have been loading for 6-12 months and everything so far has been 115fmj and now need to order more bullets. I have been thinking about going to something heavier like 124FMJ but seeing alot of information about 147 grain bullets also. Also seeing some people liking 124JHP over the FMJ. I think I can work out a powder load if I am starting with the right weight bullet. I am just wanting to make a nice accurate load that I have confidence in. I am mostly shooting steel matches but would like to try some other types of local matches. Should I try the 124FMJ as being a good middle of the road weigh or go for the 147fmj? Do the hollow point bullets provide more accuracy? I am also thinking to order from Precesion Delta or Montana Gold. Seem like in 147FMJ both compare to be about the same and more people prefer MG for anything lighter than 147. Once I order something and get a load worked out I will share whatever worked out for me.

You've put a lot of questions in a fairly small amount of space! To me, the 115s and 124s feel quite a bit snappier than 147s at similar power factors. With either bullet the gun cycles and resets far faster than probably any human can keep up (like .05-.06 second) but they will feel different, so if you switch it will take several hundred rounds before you start to really get used to them. Initially you may feel like they're hurting your timing, which is why I think a lot of people try them and think "no way, I'm waiting on the gun"....they never got the timing down and compared things on the clock to see if it's better or worse.

It's just my opinion, but I think there are very few people who won't benefit from a softer feeling load/gun combo. If you're good enough that a lighter bullet will help, you'll probably know it. Some of, if not most, of the best Production shooters are using heavy bullets....not all, I'm sure, but most. A friend who's a Prod GM was joking with someone at a match and said "there's no such thing as too soft feeling ammo". I can't argue with that. I shoot rip-snorting stuff in my Open gun, but soft, mellow 147s in my Production rig. Pair up the recoil spring with the load and life will be good.

Hollow points tend to be more accurate than FMJ/CMJs because the method of construction allows them to be more consistent, that's it. From a weight and balance standpoint (center of gravity versus center of pressure in flight) they should be worse (in most cases), but in practice they're more accurate. For what we do there really isn't enough difference to worry about unless your gun shows a strong preference for one or the other.

I've used lots of Precision Delta bullets, but the problem with them right now is that they're typically several months behind in orders. Their 147s are $88/K shipped right now, which is pretty good, but you won't get them for a while. Montana Gold 147 CMJs are $310/3K (to a residential address) so $103/K but if you order them early enough in the day, they normally ship that day. Last time I placed an order on Tues AM, I had them on Friday....hard to beat that.

I will add that my M&P doesn't shoot PD 147gr FMJ-TCs very well at all. The best I've gotten out of them so far has been about 4.5" at 25yds, and that's not good enough, and the MG 147s cut that group size in half (actually 2" or less). I'm actually heading out in a bit to compare those two combos in a Storm Lake barrel...hopefully it will like the PDs better as I've got about 1,500 of them left. R,

[G-ManBart]

The other side of this coin is that because heavy bullets move slower, so does your gun's recoil system and the amount of time you experience the recoil event. That can have a big (if not bigger) impact on how you feel the recoil and your timing for second shots.

That's a good theory, but is proving less than completely reliable in actual tests. I know some folks doing slide speed testing, on a scientific level, and the results aren't always what you'd expect. I think there's a lot more going on that is hard to sort out because much of it is internal ballistics we can't easily measure. Burn rate, peak pressure, dwell time at peak, residual pressure, etc, etc, all come to mind as other factors that could have an impact. I guess that's a long way of saying "it all depends"

[Sarge]

I have been where you are now with loads. I only started less than two years ago but have just this summer settled on a load I would feel comfortable loading several thousand of and not worry. In my G34:

Montana Gold 124 FMJ 4.2 N320 oal 1.13

Here is some of the advice I got. Even though it costs a little more, buy in less than bulk quantities. Montana gold sells 1000 at a time instead of a full case. Shooters connection is one of the best places around for getting ZERO brand bullets.(Don't forget to sign up with shootersconnection.com as a forum member for special pricing) I think you can get 2000 at a time from them. I know those numbers sound huge to casual shooters but it takes many, many reloading sessions and trips to the range to find a load you, and your gun, really like.

Once you find what you like go in on a group buy with some buddies and get several cases.

Powder is the same way. Go local and buy a pound at a time. You can get 1500+ loads out of a pound with 9mm. I did not listen too well to this advice and in the last year have bought and sold 8 lb jugs of various powders. Lots of 9mm's are loaded with titegroup, solo1000 and my new favorite powder V V N320.

Same thing, once you find what you like get together with others and do a group buy through Powder Valley and you can get you big jugs of powder pretty cheap after splitting the hazmat and shipping costs.

Load development is ALMOST a waste of time without a chronograph especially if you want to get into USPSA. Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

Other than that, KEEP READING.

[G-ManBart]

Here is some of the advice I got. Even though it costs a little more, buy in less than bulk quantities.

Or ask for folks here to sell you 100-200 of different bullets. I've sent a number of folks 200 or so MG 115s and 147s, PD 147s, Zero 147 FMJs...etc. I've found that you can sell someone 200 or so, and cover shipping for $20-25 and break even. That's usually enough to get an idea whether you gun(s) like a particular bullet or not. R,

[Sarge]

Here is some of the advice I got. Even though it costs a little more, buy in less than bulk quantities.

Or ask for folks here to sell you 100-200 of different bullets. I've sent a number of folks 200 or so MG 115s and 147s, PD 147s, Zero 147 FMJs...etc. I've found that you can sell someone 200 or so, and cover shipping for $20-25 and break even. That's usually enough to get an idea whether you gun(s) like a particular bullet or not. R,

Been there and tried that. 100 or 200 is not nearly enough. I thought it would be plenty but after 3 or 4 chrono range trips then figure out what ran in the gun 100% then actually shooting at a steel match at "combat speed" a few times, I went through 1000 MG 147's like crap through a goose.

Of course, if the OP is only going to shoot casually then it might be enough because all that really NEEDS to happen is for the gun to work properly with a given load.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sarge

[G-ManBart]

Here is some of the advice I got. Even though it costs a little more, buy in less than bulk quantities.

Or ask for folks here to sell you 100-200 of different bullets. I've sent a number of folks 200 or so MG 115s and 147s, PD 147s, Zero 147 FMJs...etc. I've found that you can sell someone 200 or so, and cover shipping for $20-25 and break even. That's usually enough to get an idea whether you gun(s) like a particular bullet or not. R,

Been there and tried that. 100 or 200 is not nearly enough. I thought it would be plenty but after 3 or 4 chrono range trips then figure out what ran in the gun 100% then actually shooting at a steel match at "combat speed" a few times, I went through 1000 MG 147's like crap through a goose.

Of course, if the OP is only going to shoot casually then it might be enough because all that really NEEDS to happen is for the gun to work properly with a given load.

It really can be done with 200....easily. Run ten over the chrono (shoot a group if you want to multi-task). Now shoot three of four five round groups. We've only shot 25-30 rounds and we have an idea of what we'll need for powder charge, and if the gun seems to at least reasonably like that bullet. You can do 7-8 trips like this with 200 rounds. If you don't know whether it's got enough potential after that, something is wrong.

[Sarge]

Of course you are right. I'm not going to bicker in somebody elses thread.

[G-ManBart]

Of course you are right. I'm not going to bicker in somebody elses thread.

Nothing to bicker about...you were just talking about something far more involved than I was suggesting. The point was it's possible to get "an idea", as I said above, not do complete load development, reliability testing, match testing etc. Do the 100-200 test and if things are looking good, then maybe order 1K to do some serious development with. If things aren't promising after 1-200, look at something else. With pistols I haven't had much luck with subtle changes like OAL, minor powder increase, decrease, etc. More often, if the gun likes them, it shoots them at least okay with pretty much any reasonable combination, and if it doesn't like them, it doesn't matter much what you try. Not always, but enough that following the above has saved me a lot of time.

[Rob Tompkins]

The other side of this coin is that because heavy bullets move slower, so does your gun's recoil system and the amount of time you experience the recoil event. That can have a big (if not bigger) impact on how you feel the recoil and your timing for second shots.

That's a good theory, but is proving less than completely reliable in actual tests. I know some folks doing slide speed testing, on a scientific level, and the results aren't always what you'd expect. I think there's a lot more going on that is hard to sort out because much of it is internal ballistics we can't easily measure. Burn rate, peak pressure, dwell time at peak, residual pressure, etc, etc, all come to mind as other factors that could have an impact. I guess that's a long way of saying "it all depends"

Well, ok. True, I've not done high-speed filming to do a comparison. In a gross sense, less muzzle energy has to mean less energy going back in to the gun/slide; else Sir Newton has some explaining to do! I can imagine that different timing of that energy (due to a different shape of the pressure curve from using different powder) causing the muzzle energy to slide velocity relationship to be non-linear especially as springs tend to be at least slightly non-linear.

Do you have a link the referenced research? I'd be interested to read what they're doing.

Edited July 6, 2010 by Rob Tompkins

[G-ManBart]

Do you have a link the referenced research? I'd be interested to read what they're doing.

Hey Rob,

As an internal thing it may never get "published" in the normal sense, but when they finish up, I may be able to get a copy of the report. You'd think that major manufacturers would have an idea about actual slide speeds, but it turns out that they don't (or at least some don't). So, when a reliability problem pops up and they say "it's a slide speed issue" they can't give a reference for an acceptable range. More to follow...hopefully. R,

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

I am curious as to what criteria you use to sort your brass? Do you simply sort by manufacturer or do you go farther than that?

[RePete]

Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

I am curious as to what criteria you use to sort your brass? Do you simply sort by manufacturer or do you go farther than that?

That's fine for Bullseye shooters but for IDPA/USPSA it's a complete waste of time.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

I am curious as to what criteria you use to sort your brass? Do you simply sort by manufacturer or do you go farther than that?

That's fine for Bullseye shooters but for IDPA/USPSA it's a complete waste of time.

So if I wanted to sort my brass for bullseye shooting how would I do that?

[SA Friday]

Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

I am curious as to what criteria you use to sort your brass? Do you simply sort by manufacturer or do you go farther than that?

That's fine for Bullseye shooters but for IDPA/USPSA it's a complete waste of time.

+1 sorting brass is a complete waste of time for the accuracy needed in USPSA/IDPA/steel challange shooting.

To original poster; don't get too caught up in high levels of precision. Get a round that will hold 2 1/2 inches at 25 yds off a bench in the right pf range, load up a couple million of the rounds, then go shooting... It's nice to have a couple of different recipes for various components if there's a shortage of something on the market, but changing ammo means changing your shooting timing. That sucks, and not in a good way.

[Sarge]

I posted alot about the validity of sorting brass. I still sort. I sort by brand because it results in much tighter oal fluctuations. Which in turn got me an SD of 4 on my last batch of ammo in 9mm. Is it a waste of time? Maybe, maybe not. One thing I do get tired of hearing is that our loads don't have to be accurate. That is complete BS! I have loaded ammo that was perfect in every way until I tried to group it and found I could not put ten rounds onto a paper plate at 25 yards consistently. Accuracy not important? FYI that is a miss on a popper! I don't want, need, or search for bullseye accuracy with my ammo, but when I miss a target at 25 yards I want to KNOW it is my fault and not the ammo.

If you want to tighten up your ammo specs do everything mentioned above in other posts AND sort your brass by Manufacturer.

[Sarge]

Sort your brass if you want your loads to be more consistant.

I am curious as to what criteria you use to sort your brass? Do you simply sort by manufacturer or do you go farther than that?

That's fine for Bullseye shooters but for IDPA/USPSA it's a complete waste of time.

So if I wanted to sort my brass for bullseye shooting how would I do that?

I sort by make primarily. Then, if I can keep it separated I try to sort by number of times fired. That is tough with range pickups so I mostly just sort by brand.

Another reason I started sorting in the first place is I was getting setback with CCI and FC families of brass whereas Win and RP were fine. Seems the walls were just a tad thinner. I load the thinner walled stuff with a u-die.

[SA Friday]

I posted alot about the validity of sorting brass. I still sort. I sort by brand because it results in much tighter oal fluctuations. Which in turn got me an SD of 4 on my last batch of ammo in 9mm. Is it a waste of time? Maybe, maybe not. One thing I do get tired of hearing is that our loads don't have to be accurate. That is complete BS! I have loaded ammo that was perfect in every way until I tried to group it and found I could not put ten rounds onto a paper plate at 25 yards consistently. Accuracy not important? FYI that is a miss on a popper! I don't want, need, or search for bullseye accuracy with my ammo, but when I miss a target at 25 yards I want to KNOW it is my fault and not the ammo.

If you want to tighten up your ammo specs do everything mentioned above in other posts AND sort your brass by Manufacturer.

I quantified what I meant by an acceptable rate of accuracy, and I do it without sorting my brass...

[RePete]

I posted alot about the validity of sorting brass. I still sort. I sort by brand because it results in much tighter oal fluctuations. Which in turn got me an SD of 4 on my last batch of ammo in 9mm. Is it a waste of time? Maybe, maybe not. One thing I do get tired of hearing is that our loads don't have to be accurate. That is complete BS! I have loaded ammo that was perfect in every way until I tried to group it and found I could not put ten rounds onto a paper plate at 25 yards consistently. Accuracy not important? FYI that is a miss on a popper! I don't want, need, or search for bullseye accuracy with my ammo, but when I miss a target at 25 yards I want to KNOW it is my fault and not the ammo.

If you want to tighten up your ammo specs do everything mentioned above in other posts AND sort your brass by Manufacturer.

I quantified what I meant by an acceptable rate of accuracy, and I do it without sorting my brass...

IF you are going to sort, then by headstamp, lot number, number of times fired. Get the idea?

If I can get 3" @ 25meters offhand, then that's good enough for government.

Sarge:

If I miss the target Iknow it's me and not the ammo.

[INGOglock34]

I should have responded long before now but I have been shooting. I order both 124 and 147 FMJ from Precision Delta and I think i have settled on the 124 grain bullets as what i like the best. I am loading with 4.2 grains of HP38 for my G34. It is a good light load which is all I need for shooting steel, paper and 2 liter bottles. I was able to get the chrono working and measured speeds 1025-1035 range. I still have a bunch of the 147s to work up some more loads but so far the 124s are what I am going to shoot. Thanks for everyone who replied.