Renton's Championship Series match

[konkapot]

Now I'm confused.

Wingman made it sound like these classes are NOT for profit, i.e. personal sacrifice and for the "betterment of the sport." There are lots of sycophants in our community, but maybe it was true. If true, then the people who took the class should be honored to get some tips from Max and TT.

But now I read that this is how Max feeds his family. If that's true, then it's a business, and not done for the "betterment of the sport." In which case, I am a little surprised that unhappy customers are responded to like this.

I know a little bit about firearms training, and there are lots of better ways to respond to unhappy (or at least not completely satisfied) customers......and it sounds like maybe they were.

Wingman made it sound like a community service (complete with Teddy Roosevelt quote) but now it seems like it was a business.

Pretty strange thread.

Summary: Dudes take class; some are happy, some are not. The "not" dudes express an opinion and get jumped on by people who weren't there. One of the providers of the class jumps in on the jumping on.

This must be one of those internet things.

FY42385

Edited June 20, 2010 by konkapot

[SteveZ]

Edited June 20, 2010 by SteveZ

[Aristotle]

Steve, why instigate this? We don't need this type of mob mentality, a disagreement should be between those involved... have "we" not learned that already. It does not involve Tom, Dick, Harry... or Rick or Tom...

I've asked nicely before, if you want to talk and sling mud, would you please do so in another thread? I don't want my thread dragged down in the dirt. I opened this thread to share my clubs match. Funny, I share videos all the time (sometimes it get's mistaken as things other than it's true intentions...), the only one that gets traffic is when there's something negative to focus on...

[Kahrnage]

Now I'm confused.

Wingman made it sound like these classes are NOT for profit, i.e. personal sacrifice and for the "betterment of the sport." There are lots of sycophants in our community, but maybe it was true. If true, then the people who took the class should be honored to get some tips from Max and TT.

But now I read that this is how Max feeds his family. If that's true, then it's a business, and not done for the "betterment of the sport." In which case, I am a little surprised that unhappy customers are responded to like this.

I know a little bit about firearms training, and there are lots of better ways to respond to unhappy (or at least not completely satisfied) customers......and it sounds like maybe they were.

Wingman made it sound like a community service (complete with Teddy Roosevelt quote) but now it seems like it was a business.

Pretty strange thread.

Summary: Dudes take class; some are happy, some are not. The "not" dudes express an opinion and get jumped on by people who weren't there. One of the providers of the class jumps in on the jumping on.

This must be one of those internet things.

FY42385

I think their comments are out of character. They don't strike me as being anything but great people...I think they were just frustrated and vented a little bit. MM/TT are those guys you shoot with that are always taping and helping the squad move along and smiling while they do it. They personify shooters everywhere and give us all good names...just chalk it up to a bad moment as we all have them

[Aristotle]

Thank you TJ. I stand by my fellow shooters just the same, and if the the #@$# ever hit the fan, I'll stay loyal to my soil. This isn't high school and we need to let "those involved" work this out. Kinda like the kids in high school screaming "fight!! Fight!! Fight!!" Except we are not in High school anymore.

[SteveZ]

Steve, why instigate this?

I think your asking the wrong person that question.

[old506]

I appreciate someone who says it like they see it, on both sides in this case.

It reminds me of when I would ask for written references. Invariably all written references were positive (because the reference was handing the job applicant the written reference) and then I would follow up by calling and then they would give me the truth. I had one guy, a public servant, say how wonderful the person was on paper and then when I called he said that the person stole from him!

Why not say it like they saw it in the first place? Opinion isn't a crime and that isn't slamming someone either. I appreciate the info, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't attend a future training. It does mean that I need to check in prior to laying down my money.

Edited June 20, 2010 by old506

[SteveU]

This is a very disappointing thread. Not bad or violating the rules or anything, just sad that expectations weren't met and shooters who all want the same thing are in conflict. I was in Sudden Death's class and had a great experience. As an intermediate ( shooter, I benefitted a lot from the education. I took a lot of notes and felt that I was given a platform to improve myself. I didn't expect to shoot better immediately but that I would be taught what was important to learn. I also learned through the course what gave me the most trouble. That helped me decide which techniques I should spend the most time on to get the most benefit, and what I could tuck away and work on later. You definitely can't do it all at once.

Others in my class from D to A seemed to feel the same way.

We shot in an unbelievable Kentucky thunderstorm. I felt the round count was appropriate but also felt that I got a lot out of listening and not shooting.

That was only our experience and I'm sure 100% of people don't feel the same way. However, there are ways to constructively criticize, and if the expectation for the course wasn't met by all means provide the feedback. They practically begged for it. They gave multiple opportunities to provide it and ask questions. A lot of the feedback is valid and could be explained by the format of the course and how it differed from SD's. Also, clearly the objectives of the instructors and some students for some reason weren't aligned. But my read is that some of the comments B the students in this thread were intended to hurt rather than be productive. Those may be true feelings but don't further the argument, resolve the issue or reflect well on the poster. As you can see from Max's post, there were other ways to resolve this in a win-win way rather than a win-lose. If the intention wasn't to vent, but to provide constructive feedback, I would consider sticking to objective facts and your direct impression of them and leaving out parts that you know are merely inflammatory. ("rather buy bullets.. ") as they take away from your point rather than emphasize it.

[Ben Stoeger]

I appreciate someone who says it like they see it, on both sides in this case.

Why not say it like they saw it in the first place? Opinion isn't a crime and that isn't slamming someone either. I appreciate the info, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't attend a future training. It does mean that I need to check in prior to laying down my money.

Yeah I agree, this is a great thread. I am usually on the instructor side of things, but either way there is lots of good information on this thread on how to make your customers happy, and that’s really what this is all about.

[EmanP]

My appologies for the late response, I've been away for the last 5 days and finally had a chance to sit down.

First and foremost I agree with TJ that Max's response seems out of character from what we saw spending two days with him. We are all only human and respond as such, sometime good, sometimes not so good. Of course this extends to myself as well and it seems my ammo remark, although factual, came across very harshly.

Even though my intent wasn't meant as a hurtful blow against any individual, intentions aren't always everything and the outcome sometimes has a different result. I failed in trying to express that I felt it would be more productive to be behind the trigger running drills and pushing limits to the breaking point and then refining that. Instead it came out as a pointed attack and for that, I sincerely appologize. I would remove it but the forum software doesn't allow me to do that.

Max, you're right, I didn't give you much if any time for a response. Truthfully, I wasn't expecting one, didn't anticipate an offer of attending another class or as some suggested, a refund. Class was done and it never crossed my mind, so I guess that's why I didn't wait. We contracted you to come out and perform a service and you did. We both fullfilled our obligations. Obviously you felt you performed to your satisfaction and I had my own veiws as were expressed earlier and as in tradition with many individuals elsewhere when it comes to firearm classes as well as other things, I posted an AAR for the class. I wasn't doing it to spite anyone, mearly to help educate others.

After the class, I did still recommend it to someone else as I felt that they would have a lot to take away from it. I guess I've come to learn that a one size fits all cookie cutter class that will accomidate a wide range of shooters from D-GM is not something that I think I would put a lot of value into in the future for myself. It seemed to me when a 'Custom Course' was meantioned and a Custom Training Program would be provided after the class, I took that to mean that a custom course was designed for us and it was not just the given name of the class or drills document; the same or identical one that has been given to other students from years past.

I also did not mean to criticize anyone when I said it would be more comfortable for the lecture portion, the first portion, to be done indoors. It was mearly a suggestion for any future students since that is something that can be anticipated and since the idea of an AAR is to improve for the next go around, I thought it was relavent. In our case, we had a building although I'm not sure if we could have actually used it or not.

I was troubled to just learn though that TJ and I were targeted as closed minded problem children with better than thou attitudes and judged before we even put our equipment on. Whether it was because I stood with arms folded, TJ asked for brutal honesty or simply because we expressed concern long before the class, we would have appreciated a fair chance. All this aside, my earlier opinions and recollection of events still stands true. As is often the case when remembering things, different people have diffierent memories of what happened. Although I might not make many people happy with it, I tried to make mine as factual and accurate as possible. I'm sure there were things going on that I wasn't witness to, so I can only speak from my own perspective.

Edited June 24, 2010 by EmanP

[-M2]

TJ, Emanuel and the rest of the group-

First off, I want to apologize for my previous post. It was purely written on emotion and was simply out of character for me.

I thought there were much more to your comments/this thread and that is why I reacted the way that I did. It was speculation on my part and I would be happy to speak with you both in person to fill you in further.

I do appreciate your honesty and you are entitled to your opinion. Again, I thought there was much more to this and you have every right to post an AAR of your experience. It's just the way things were written and how the list of events unfolded that made me think it was more than just an AAR.

Again, I apologize for my comments and I look forward to clearing things up with you in person sometime soon as email, posts, etc... can be easily taken out of context. I'm not sure how to delete my previous comments but I would be happy to do so or have someone in charge take care of it.

-Max Michel

Double Impact Training

[Kahrnage]

I look forward to clearing things up with you in person sometime soon as email, posts, etc... can be easily taken out of context.

-Max Michel

Double Impact Training

Thanks Max.

We will be at Area1 on Friday only.

Maybe we'll see you there and can talk.

[Tanfogliofan]

The match that Ari had put together was outstanding! All of the stages had a variety of challenges making each one a stage you sit back and wonder if you chose the right route coarse. Considering how many people had showed up for the match, going from stage to stage was smooth and consistent. Definitely one for the books. I know I have all the YouTube vids from that saved to favorites!

The training course the day before was my first experience with this sort of thing. Getting the opportunity the learn from what I consider the Michael Jordan's of our sport was a blessing all and all. I unfortunately had to leave earlier than the rest of the guys but I feel I learned an enormous amount of information about the sport and how to play the game.

Travis, one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, had taken my game to the next level by teaching me about my stance, different ways of transitioning, and how to properly hold my gun. None of these things ever crossed my mind as being a weak point to my game. Travis explained to me about mental preparation before a stage, things in a stage that can deceive you into taking the wrong path, and about simplifying the break down of a stage into parts. Travis had opened my eyes to things I was completely blind to and had not thought of being a deficiency before.

Max, A guy that is as humble as a person can be, had guided me through most all of the stages with directions on what to do plus the reasoning behind doing it. Max had taken the time to watch me shoot the stages, point out where I may have saved some time by doing something different and the spots where I should have taken a little extra time on making the shot.

All in all, the experience was everything I thought it to and then some by miles. This was a chance in a lifetime experience that will permanently be engraved in my mind. I chose to go into this with a child's mind and seek out the answers to all my questions and ended up with greater ability, a better prospective on the game, and made some new life long friends. Thanks Travis and Max for your time, your teaching and your friendship.

Taking a training coarse from the best in the world? $600. Learning how to really play the game from the two Micheal Jordan's? PRICELESS!