IMGA target neutralization

[Jadeslade]

Shooting two is faster than taking the time to guarantee an A-there is a time penalty plus FTN for not an A. Any two on the paper is good.

I 100% disagree with you here. I understand the reasoning but I believe the logic behind it is flawed. It takes no longer to shoot an A (and KNOW it is an A) than it takes to shoot two anywhere.

OK-shoot 3 gun your way. DVC

[BigDave]

And bumblebees and bats aren't supposed to be able to fly either...at least based on the most common principles of aerodynamics and physics. But they, of course, do.

Jake, what I was driving at with the transitions and muscle memory comment is that in terms of the shooting challenge - your position relative to the first target, from one target to the next, the target size, etc. are all well known. Doug, JJ, Max, TGO, BE, Jet, and all other past champion spent hours building, among other things, a lot of muscle memory what is specific to those courses. When you don't have to think much or at all consciously about what its going to take to get from one target to the next, you probably spend a lot more of your energy on things like vision and shot calling. Just SWAG on my part, but I really don't think I'm too far off in left field here, either.

The top guns take two when they could take one, and they are doing it for a reason. (speaking of which, is there ANY of the top shooters who take a lot of single A-shots? who?) And, it's hard to argue with the results. I agree it flies in the face of "...it doesn't take any longer...", but it is happening.

Edited May 25, 2010 by BigDave

[StealthyBlagga]

...It takes no longer to shoot an A (and KNOW it is an A) than it takes to shoot two anywhere.

This is where you are mistaken. When doing fast transitions with a rifle, especially when looking down the tube of a scope, it is really challenging to stop the sight in the A-zone every single time. Often you slightly over- or under-swing, and so correcting to get in the A-zone is in fact slower. If you are looking for holes in the target, that is REALLY slow. If we are talking about pistol, then for me anything past bad breath range is too risky due to the ease of pulling a shot with a less-than-perfect trigger press (which is my modus operandi these days ).

[kellyn]

All I can say is this: I want all my competitors to use the 1 A on the target system.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Since I am not the best in the world or even the best in OK this probably doesn't carry much weight but I am starting to see your point Jack. I think the IMGA scoring system is flawed in that it doesn't give a penalty for not hitting A's. So your focus changes partially because an A isn't needed and because a lot of 3 gun courses of fire require you to have to process more information because of the weapons transistions, difficult shotgun loading, flying targets, etc. I personally have a tendency to get lazy when it comes to shooting paper as I can put two shots on brown with subconscious thought fairly easily while at the same time thinking ahead about how I'm going to manuever the non shooting problems that the course designer has put in front of me. I think this gets even worse with a rifle because the sights rarely track off of a large paper IPSC target during recoil so it's easy and quite possible to take one sight picture and two shots and have a very good chance of still putting two on paper and not spending the extra mental thought on the second shot but instead thinking about the tree your supposed to run to before you have to clear your pistol, grab your rifle, load it, go prone, find the targets in the woods and finally get to the actual shooting.

The Red Neck Tactical crew put on their first match with the LPH scoring two weekends ago. During that match myself and another experienced but new shooter were discussing the likes and dislikes about 3 gun vs uspsa. I said that I really enjoyed all of the planning, different target presentations, weapons transitions, etc. and he felt the opposite. Since I don't listen I am paraphrasing here but he said something to the effect in 3 gun the shooting is less pure. Meaning that it is almost less important than all of the other stuff. In a uspsa pistol match you are much more precise with your movements, target transitions, reloads, and most importantly the shooting simply because you have the extra mental capacity to process everything that's going on. This is even more true with steel challenge because it's the same every time you shoot it.

Now I'm starting to ramble but I think what I'm getting at is the IMGA target neutralization scoring allows us less than the best shooters to become sloppy in the shooting so we can focus on the game more and shooting less. Guys like Horner, Miller, and Butler are able to shoot faster AND process all the other stuff at a much faster rate. Maybe that's why I'm not at the top of the game, I'm just not smart enough yet.

In contrast, the new LPH scoring system that's about to sweep through the 3 gun game actually rewards you for slowing down to make a conscious effort to hit 2 A's on every target because of the .25 bonus for A's and .25 penalty for D's. I know that during our first four stage match under LPH the 30+ A's and two misses and those two misses cost me all of my bonus time. The next match I will be using the bonus from 100% A's to make up for my slow shotgun reloads.

That's all I got to say about that. At least until you remind me again that I'm not the the best or fuel the fire I just started about me being less intelligent than Taran and Kurt. LOL!

Edited May 25, 2010 by jtischauser

[bigbrowndog]

Jesse it Redneck Tactical not Tsctical, that sounds way to much like testical, more target focus is required for those keys you're punching remember to shoot a's on those as well.

or your super secret squirrel RT access dues will be increased!!!!

Trapr

Edited May 25, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Jesse Tischauser]

I thought it was testical all along and thought that was really funny but I gotta say tactical does make more sense now that I think about it.

[StealthyBlagga]

In practice, most of us are shooting at least one A on the target - in my case I try to shoot an A on the first shot then accelerate the second shot to "anywhere in the brown" - this approach seems prudent as the extra time for the second shot is minimal, and if it falls off the target there is a reasonable chance the A will be there. Now, if my first shot does not feel like an A then I may take the second shot a tad slower or even throw a third shot out there.

In my humble opinion, IMA scoring works well for multigun just as it is. It is simple, and it is very fast for ROs to run shooters through because nobody has to record actual hits... this translates directly into giving the shooter a more interesting and enjoyable shooting experience within the allotted time. Most of all, it is the same for everybody, and gives the shooter the opportunity to solve the problem as they see fit. As for "rewarding accuracy", IMA does this by penalizing inaccuracy (and quite harshly I might add). If the consensus is that shots need to be more challenging, then just add some smaller/partial targets, penalty targets and longer distances - this would achieve the desired effect without slowing down the non-value-added steps of scoring and resetting the stages. I can't for the life of me understand this obsession we seem to have with making the scoring methods more complicated and onerous for the ROs .

[Jake Di Vita]

This is where you are mistaken. When doing fast transitions with a rifle

I wasn't talking about shooting with a rifle. As I said in the earlier post, I don't have enough experience with them to have an educated opinion on it.

n practice, most of us are shooting at least one A on the target - in my case I try to shoot an A on the first shot then accelerate the second shot to "anywhere in the brown" - this approach seems prudent as the extra time for the second shot is minimal

How many times would you say you do this in a given match?

[kurtm]

Just so we can have a good base line here...Jake set up, or have one set up for you, a 12-15 target stage, couple of no shoots a swinger/bobber and a few chunks of steel, make sure some of the targets are out around 20-25yds. shoot it one A only. Now let it age a week or two and do it again with the good old 2 any where. put them both to time then come on back and tell us what you found out. All the Red Neck Tactical trainers have done this very thing (Like Kelly mentions)and have decided to do it with a few instead of one.....if you can shoot faster by doing one A you need to shoot 3-gun as no-one could even keep up with you....Jerry look out! KurtM

[Jake Di Vita]

Kurt,

I never said I would do that on every target. On partials at distance, shooting 2 is a reasonable deal. How about open targets at 5 yards? Do you shoot 2 on them as well? I'm not in a position where I can do what you ask right now, but when I am I will.

[ShooterSteve]

Jake, I understand exactly what you are trying to get across, but you have to understand that not everyone is a grandmaster, and not everyone can call shots like that. It is a skill that must be learned, and usually takes lessons from someone who is a very good shooter. It also takes a LOT of practice, which equals a LOT of money and time. Untill then, people have to use whatever method works best for them, as they strive to learn to call their shots in the proper manner which you have described.

[Jake Di Vita]

Now calling shots is reserved for Grandmasters who have had training from great shooters and only because they used a ton of money and time? C'mon...Calling shots is nothing more than knowing where your gun was pointed when it fired, which I first learned how to do as a B shooter. And my point is, if shooters can't do that yet - falling back on a crutch is not the way to make it happen...nor is it necessarily the most efficient way to negotiate a stage.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think we have all called an A hit that turned out to be just barely a C. If that happens just once on a even a large 15 paper target stage the 5 second penalty far out ways the time savings from calling only one A on each target. If you call your A when you break the shot but double check with a peak for the hole at the targets afterwards you could have already used more time than it would take to shoot two.

So in an entire match of say 100 rounds/50 targets of pistol or rifle. You could save .3 seconds per target for a slow shooter or 15 seconds per match. 2-3 FTN penalties on your called A's completely eliminates your time savings. If your fast with your splits say .2 or even .18 then you better really be calling all of those A's!

Edited May 27, 2010 by jtischauser

[StealthyBlagga]

Now calling shots is reserved for Grandmasters who have had training from great shooters and only because they used a ton of money and time? C'mon...Calling shots is nothing more than knowing where your gun was pointed when it fired, which I first learned how to do as a B shooter. And my point is, if shooters can't do that yet - falling back on a crutch is not the way to make it happen...nor is it necessarily the most efficient way to negotiate a stage.

I think most of us get what you are saying - we just think you are wrong. At least, what you are proposing is not the most efficient for me.

[kurtm]

I do know what Jake is saying, and I can call my shots very well, and I have put this debate to the timer time and time again...if you will exceuse me for that, and I can assure you that all the folks that win 3-gun matches have done the same thing, and I can tell you right now that two is faster in the long run, or I wouldn't be doing it, nor would Jerry, Mike, Kelly, Dave, Taran, Bruce, Tony, Eric, Daniel, Robby, Ted, Phil...etc.

[Jake Di Vita]

So in an entire match of say 100 rounds/50 targets of pistol or rifle. You could save .3 seconds per target for a slow shooter or 15 seconds per match. 2 FTN penalties on your called A's completely eliminates your time savings. If your fast with your splits say .2 or even .18 then you better really be calling all of those A's!

OK, and what are the results if you have no FTNs? Would you not have a sizable advantage?

Once again, let me state I think there is definitely a time and a place for 2 anywhere. It just doesn't make sense to me to do that at targets that I can hit with one alpha 20 out of 20 times.

Kurt,

Is there any time where you would fire one alpha instead of 2 anywhere? A duck at 5 yards for example? If you would still shoot 2, why?

[D.Hayden]

There's definitely times where I'll just shoot one, they just tend to be the exceptions.

When you're going through the shoot house at SMM3G this year, the last couple targets were basically contact shots.

An upper a/b presentation only, surrounded by no shoots. Things like that.

[kurtm]

Yes Jake there have been a very few times I have shot a single "A" about 16 targets worth since 1996, about 4 with a pistol and the rest with a rifle.....the average of my shooting one shot is about .0004 percent of the time

There is no such thing as a "duck" at 5 yards as the penalty for a failure to neutralizes is 5 seconds added and I guaranty that way back in the farthest corner of your mind you will hesitate ( let's say for about the time of a split .14-.17 or so) to make sure it really is an alpha, it isn't worth it to fire just once as the time of the split makes up for the hesitation...but like I said...go time yourself under real match conditions and let us know, untill you do that it is pointless to argue with us as you have no data from which to draw. Kurt

[Jake Di Vita]

Proper calling of shots eliminates hesitation. Regarding match conditions, penalties, or any other outside pressure - I'm not thinking about that stuff when I'm shooting and I would never change my game plan because I might mess up under pressure. That is a telltale symptom of a bigger root problem. Taking less shots is always going to be faster than taking more shots...unless you aren't 100% confident in your shot calling ability (thus creating hesitation).

When I have the resources, I will be happy to prove it to you.

[bigbrowndog]

Jake taking less shots may be faster but the parameters are not just the shots, there are size limits as well. Have you NEVER fired twice at a piece of steel? At steel challenge distances?

As Kurt said, firing two at a 45cm x 60cm aprox. target is faster for most of us, than one at a 28cm x 15cm aprox, one, and until you know what you can do you, do not have a basis for your theories, and there is a reason they are called theories and not facts. there are very few times that I would shoot one at a target, and it is strictly based on mag changes.

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

My brain doesn't work fast enough to even understand what this discussion is about, let alone trying to decipher, on the clock, whether or not a particular target is within my threshold of 100% accuracy of calling an A hit AND being able to fire an A hit as quickly as a C or D.

Part of the fun is shooting, so if I fire 2 rounds at each target, I'm having twice as much fun as someone only firing one round, right?

I'm going to go have a beer.

[Jesse Tischauser]

So in an entire match of say 100 rounds/50 targets of pistol or rifle. You could save .3 seconds per target for a slow shooter or 15 seconds per match. 2 FTN penalties on your called A's completely eliminates your time savings. If your fast with your splits say .2 or even .18 then you better really be calling all of those A's!

OK, and what are the results if you have no FTNs? Would you not have a sizable advantage?

Once again, let me state I think there is definitely a time and a place for 2 anywhere. It just doesn't make sense to me to do that at targets that I can hit with one alpha 20 out of 20 times.

Kurt,

Is there any time where you would fire one alpha instead of 2 anywhere? A duck at 5 yards for example? If you would still shoot 2, why?

10-15 seconds of savings for am entire match is only 3-6% of 500-700 total seconds. To me even if I was 97% sure I could call all A's I would still lay down two per paper because the risk just isn't worth the reward.

[kellyn]

I can think of 3 specific instances when I tried the 1 A system when shooting heavy metal/he man to save a reload (and 2 of them were with a rifle): 1 at SMM3G and 2 at RM3G. How do I remember them? I did not pull it off!

[kurtm]

Well Kelly you have just proved Jakes point...you didn't call your shots, you thnk you did, but you just arent on that kind of level you G.M. you! Don't feel too bad cause I got "bigger root problems" and can't trust my shooting at all. Maybe with this kind of help I will be able to win SMM3G more than twice or DPMS more than 4 times...well we can always hope. Thanks for the 3-gun tip Jake see you at RM3G where Daniel Horner stands no chance at all if you show up. KurtM