Zak Smith Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Does anyone know what combination of mounts are required to co-witness a DoctorSight with the A2 sights on a flat-top AR-15? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Hi Zak, The secret to making a red dot co-witness with Irons on an AR is to start with the Irons zeroed and find a widget or existing red dot that sits where you want it. I have not seen anything specifically designed to do this with an Optima type sight, but have found through trial and error that C-More type sights will very roughly center the lens in front of the rear Iron aperture when mounted on the rail in front of the rear sight with their standard rail adapters (this assumes a flat top configuration). For me, an OKO I picked up off a prize table dropped in place perfectly centered on my Limited AR and works just as you are seeking without any special widgets. It wouldn't be much of a trick to have an adapter block made to shim an Optima type sight up from it's stock rail mount adapter. Just use some clay, or whatever to build it up until you get something that puts the lens square in front of the rear aperture then measure the height needed and get someone to machine an adapter block for you. Once you get the red dot lens roughly centered on a zeroed set of irons, it's only a matter of moving the dot to where you want it over the existing iron sight picture, then confirm it at the range for the final tweak. Centering it by eye will get you real close. I zeroed my dot at home to center in my front aperture (I use the JP front globe with insert) and it was dead on when I checked it on a 200 yard steel plate. As to the why, I haven't answered that question yet either. I put the OKO on my Limited AR just for fun and because I didn't know what else to do with the OKO. It is blazingly fast up close without any canting like other dot mountings require and works well with irons on flash targets at up to 200 yards, it's just not fast at distance. I'm not sure if it is good for any competition use compared to other configurations. If I wanted a fast and accurate setup for Tac 3 gun, I would choose an ACOG or Low powered variable for the magnification it would bring to the table on the long stuff and just put the JP iron set on the handguard. So far it's a solution looking for a problem for me, but it is fun to shoot. BTW, the range of adjustment on an Optima/Docter is smaller than on other dots, so if you dont get the lens perfectly centered you could wind up driving the dot far enough to de-laminate it, whereas the larger C-More OKO dot sights give you a bit more dot movement and will be more forgiving of the mount position. How do I know about de-laminating the dot module, because I did it to a J-Point trying to compensate for a big mount/eye/hold offset. -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 If you can get an Docter mount that goes on a Picatinny rail, then you could try the Benny Cooley adjustable "gooseneck" mount. It will allow you to vary the height over the handguard, but I don't know by how much. You could also get a freefloat tube with a rail on the top and experiment with different risers to get the right height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 A cool setup that I've seen work pretty well, is a OKO sight on a FT AR w/ the GG & G flip up front and rear sight. However, I'm with Kelly. Note too, that form SMM3G, OKO is not on the approved Tac-Scoped Rifle list of optics. If you're going for a Tac-Scoped Rifle, and want the red dot as your optic, look at an Aimpoint, C-More or EOTech. For TSR, I'm using the JP-ACOG and his JP-SRTS on the handguard. Just my two Lincolns. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 A2 sights on a flat-top AR-15 WhatchutalkinboutWillis? Flat-tops don't have sights. A2s don't have flattops. You can get A2-like sights in a carry handle for a flat-top (aka A3) but then, there goes the flat-top real estate for your optic. If you want to co-witness iron sights with a Docter or other optic on a flat-top, you'll need some kind of flat-top rear sight. Yankee Hill, Bushmaster, ARMS, GG&G, DPMS, Cavalry Arms, etc. Or an A3 carry handle with an over-the-handguard Weaver mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Erik, I meant with an A2-style front sight tower using an add-on rear fixed sight for the flat-top like the LMT or ARMS #40. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Oops! I saw "A2" and my brain registered "carry handle" and ignored the contradicting flat top info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'm not trying to rain on any parades but I think co-witnessed sights are the work of Satan, the dark lord. Reddot and irons work exactly the opposite of each other. With irons you NEED to concentrate on the front sight. With a dot you should be concentrating on the target and superimposing the dot over it. What do you do with co-witnessed sights? You end up focusing on the frontsight/dot thingy and losing one the primary advantages of having a red dot in the first place. Plus, I'm a sensitive type who does not like the cluttered sight picture you get. One of the advantages of the red dot is the absence of front sight bases, wings, hoods and whathaveyou in your sight picture. If you're less sensitive, then this may not bother you. Now I know a lots of guys have co-witnessed sights on their D-Day-Dawnof the Dead-CrashhawkDown-RedDawn-practical/tactical rifles but I think flipups are a lot better option for backup irons, if a bit pricier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 AMEN brother Neil!!! Co witnessing is like wearing two rubbers, if one breaks you might be safe, but by wearing two you won't feel anything so whats the need for safety? More to the point! If you are co-witnessed you can't see the top of the front post due to the irritating red glow. Hence you will string shots from here to breakfast. If the dot goes out...at last you can see to do some accurate shooting, but are now looking through a tube or window that realy cuts down on the periferal vision. Flip up back up sights are fine for a primary red dot, but anyone I know that has tried co-witnessed sights soon scraped the idea as junk!! BUT you can spend a lot of money finding that out for yourself! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I don't mind co-witnessed at all (Colt/C-More Scout on A1 carry handle). Keep both eyes open and look at the target. The focal plane is so much farther away I don't notice all that iron up close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I'm trying out an interesting mount from Bennie Cooley: The Bennie Cooley Co-Witnessing Adjustable Mount (BC-CAM). Website is http://www.benniecooley.com. I'm just getting into the AR world. I got a good deal on a Bushy M4-A2 and an eotch (guy went to jail for not paying child support and needed cash ). The eotech was mounted on on the carry handle about 3 feet too high. I did some research and found the BC-CAM. The point is that the mount is adjustable so that you can put the red dot slightly above the iron sights. You can switch back and forth by changing the focal plane of your eye. I did a little bodging to try this out in the basement - read that as duct tap and wood shims. It seemed to work well. I've got a BC-CAM on order, so I hope it lives up to its promise. Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 give us a report soon gun geek, I am in the same boat, I will be mounting an eotech on my bushy A2 with a gooseneck, possibly a BC-CAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PacMan Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 Zak, if you truly in need to get the Doctor sight in the same sighting plane with your A2 rear/front sight tower, try the Bushmaster riser blocks. However, echoing kurtm and kellyn opinions, I suggest that you don't do it. For the costs and headaches, you'd better off getting an EOTech, slap it on the flat top and go. An ARMS #38 flip up rear sight will work with the EOTech and the AR front sight tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 The BC-CAM is a well made for an INSTRUMENT OF THE DEVIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted January 16, 2004 Share Posted January 16, 2004 I'll report as soon as I get the gear. BTW: I thought about leaving the duct tape and wood shims on my M4, but I figured I'd end up somehow in line for a Darwin award. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Saw an article in American Rifleman. I guess Rock River got the DEA contract. Don't know much on the rifle, but saw an EOTech, co-witnessed to iron sights. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Got the BC-CAM today. MOST AWESOME!!!! Took about 5 Minutes to install. 2 allen wrenches required (supplied), and a 1/2" box wrench to put an extra touch to it. Co-witnesses my iron sights (Bushy M4-A2) and an Eotech. It works in a pretty cool way. The irons are down about 1/8 inch from the dot. I don't even see the irons when using the dot (focused on the target). I can switch back to the irons very quickly and use them with out the dot being in the way. It is there and I can see it, but I can ignore it. If I have time, I could turn off the Eotech and just look through the window. I can see the stage now: 4 - 6 close targets (<10yds) 2 longer range (200yds) then back up close. Bet that'll drive you nuts with other optics. BTW, I tried to mount the Eotech on the hand guard as suggested in a few earlier posts. My guards are made by 1st SAMCO and they flex quite a bit when shooting. It would probably work if you never shot any more than 50yds out. If anybody wants'em I can supply pics. Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Puleeease.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdmoore Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I'm doing a bit of research on the eotech mount on the A2 handle. Many good things said about the BC-Cam One other mount of note is the one(s) made by PRI. Don't have any experience yet, but others report a perfect mount (it's made for it). I think they have one for normal handguards, and one for M4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 You don't like my stage? Geek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 My BC-CAM is on the way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 Speaking of the Benny Cooley mount ... How much does it obscure your sight picture? I have a Leapers gooseneck mount and while it works great for holding the red dot in the right place, it's really tough to focus on the front sight when you need it because of so much clutter. I found that I could maintain a better focus on the front sight when I use the small aperture, but I'd rather be able to use the larger. I know some people have used a mill and removed some of the metal on the sides of the "channel," but I'm not sure it's worth that much effort if something else will present a better view of the sights without modification. Remo ... don't forget to share photos when you get it installed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleL Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 I think co witness is a good idea. I zero the open sights but only use them if the red dot goes south. Just a back up. Trying to survive til breakfast.... (or something like that Kurt) Kelly and Kurt.. Nice seeing you fellas at SHOT. God Bless the USA!!!!! KyleL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 KyleL: If you are saying surviving till breakfast ( blatant night time statement), are you saying use Trijicon iron sights so you can see the green glow if the red glow goes away??? Down right Christmassy!! For field use I guess it is ok, as you have a "qwick" back up! But for 3-gun competition I have to say...ummmm.....already said it. Note Qwicky mart reference....just for a qwick breakfast. Be good KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now