Available Cover

[Forrest Halley]

This example is intended to illustrate the ambiguity I see in the term "available cover."

I was shooting a match that required 12 shots in the form of 4 2+1's(2 body+1 head) all while retreating on a slight diagonal to cover that was ten or so yards from the last target. The four targets were spaced at least six feet apart in distance and lateral separation. The way the COF was designed you would be about 3 to 5 yards off depending on how well you steer in reverse.

My ambiguity is this: I am shooting a revolver and have run dry by the second target. "Cover" is 15 yards away and I am passing by 2 threats on the way to cover to initiate my reload. Does anyone else see anything wrong here?

At the very least I think it was a poorly designed stage because it is definitely not revolver neutral as targets 3 and 4 are now 15 and 10 yard shots where only the last shot for the auto is a 10 yarder. In this case I find cover to be unavailable when I must pass by two threats with out engaging them all for the sake of reloading in a safe place first. I find cover to only be truly viably available for reloading use when it is not farther than the threat. I understand that distance in gunfights saves lives also. Please advise.

[JeffWard]

This is why I don't shoot IDPA...

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Poor course design. I shot one similar and was told as a revolver shooter I had to take a knee to reload in the open. Anyway, it is just poorly designed.

Best match I ever shot allowed you to carry a back up gun

[Merlin Orr]

Poor design.....But it does look like all the classes have to do a reload behind cover. The CDP guys will have to do more long range shots than the SSP & ESP shooters so there is some sharing of the misery...

Let me guess. The stage designer does not shoot a wheel gun...?

[Steve Koski]

Advice: Ask the SO if you can reload in the open and continue firing as you back up, or if he wants you to hustle to cover and then reload.

[Forrest Halley]

Correct on the non wheelgunner. Let's not deviate here I'm looking for a definition of AVAILABLE COVER. The rules say that ALL reloads must be initiated from cover when cover is available. IS cover deemed available when the threats are 5 yds distant and cover is ten yards distant? How about when you must pass one or two targets with an empty gun on the way to cover?

As an SO I'd say cover is not available, but that is because I have shot CDP and ESR and don't believe either should limit you other than the round count in the gun. As a competitor I expect to make a good case that cover was not available due to the threats being between us or get a PE for reloading on the fly.

Now the debate begins about which is faster the PE and reload in the open or the run to cover and reload....all depends on your physical limitations...something IDPA was intended to cancel out. Seems like requiring the reload to be initiated from cover puts a definite advantage on young guy.

[Forrest Halley]

As an SO I must advise you of this: Ask forgiveness not permission. If it is not covered in the stage brief or COF walk through...don't bring it up. That is the number one way to have a COF clamped right into a box limited by another person's imagination often someone different than the stage designer. If you can think of a way to do it that is not expressly prohibited go for it. I am personally against asking questions because if I flush my plan and do the opposite of what I just asked when the buzzer goes off and now I knew better. Don't cheat, but don't crowd yourself out of options either.

[Duane Thomas]

This is why I don't shoot IDPA...

Let's cool the "This is why I don't shoot IDPA" commentary. If you don't shoot IDPA, what are you doing here? Did you just stop by to insult the sport?

[Blueridge]

While shooting the course of fire that you describe causes some problems that effect SSR, ESR, & CDP differently than the other divisions I cannot say that I have a problem with the stage as a whole. The idea of IDPA (the way that I see it) is to get you thinking about different situations. You will not always be able to engage all threats before you have to make a reload, and cover may be farther away than the threats. My personal choice in the stage that you describe would be to move in such a way that I would reach cover about the same time I finished the first six shots. That would then put me in a position to reload behind cover shortly after.

All of the SSR, ESR, and CDP shooters would be actually competing against others that had the same challenge, so I don't see the problem in the grand scheme of things. I may want to finish better than a SSP shooter when I am shooting ESR, but the immediate challenge is to finish better than the other ESR shooters in the match.

I shoot revolver in IDPA and USPSA, and accept the challenges at matches that I am faced with. I use a revolver that would better be suited for SSR, but weighs too much for that division. Therefore I shoot in the ESR division, using speedloaders, loaded with .45 Colt ammunition, competing with others using moonclips. It has been advised to me that I should reduse the weight of the revolver that I use, and have it cut for moonclips. I won't do either, as that is not my preference.

I am not saying that I "like" the stage, but I would step up to the challenge if I were faced with it. I recently shot a stage that had 3 targets, and you started at arms length to the center one (there was about a meter between the targets). You had to shoot 3 shots on each while retreating to cover (while carrying a duffle bag in your off hand, and shooting strong hand only). The duffle bag had to be carried until you got behind cover, and then you could drop it. At that point you reloaded, engaged the third target, and then engaged a fourth target from cover that was about 20 yards away. Not exactly the stage you described, but similar enough.

It is a sport, enjoy it.

[wilinaz]

My understanding is that if it is on the stage it is avaliable. The COF you descibed is what falls into the poor stage design definition. Requiring 12 shots in the open when the rules only allow a max of 11 in any gun is forcing all shooters to run dry. I hope this wasn't a sanctioned match. As far as making the shots more difficult for 1 class or another doesn't really mean much, you are only shooting against your class.

[John Z Sr]

Feel your pain, had a very similar stage last week, my approach was to shoot it like a normal person would and I was glad to get the 20 second FTDR penalty for doing the reload in the open.

[lugnut]

I personally wouldn't design a stage like that and I don't shoot wheel guns much. Nuf said.

[jmorris]

Does anyone else see anything wrong here?

At the very least I think it was a poorly designed stage because it is definitely not revolver neutral

Thats not as wrong as having to leave cover to pick up ammunition left behind and returning to cover before shooting to avoid a procedural. Even with the best set of rules you can what if them into something unintended.

FWIW I don't remember seeing revolver neutral in the rule book. It does say "...the problems shooters are asked to solve must reflect reality." At least in this case they do as reality is, you are empty after 6 and others are after 9 or 11.

Edited April 29, 2010 by jmorris

[Strick]

Correct on the non wheelgunner. Let's not deviate here I'm looking for a definition of AVAILABLE COVER. The rules say that ALL reloads must be initiated from cover when cover is available. IS cover deemed available when the threats are 5 yds distant and cover is ten yards distant? How about when you must pass one or two targets with an empty gun on the way to cover?

As an SO I'd say cover is not available,

That is the way I see it.

[DWFAN]

Correct on the non wheelgunner. Let's not deviate here I'm looking for a definition of AVAILABLE COVER. The rules say that ALL reloads must be initiated from cover when cover is available. IS cover deemed available when the threats are 5 yds distant and cover is ten yards distant? How about when you must pass one or two targets with an empty gun on the way to cover?

As an SO I'd say cover is not available,

That is the way I see it.

+3

[Forrest Halley]

Does anyone else see anything wrong here?

At the very least I think it was a poorly designed stage because it is definitely not revolver neutral

That’s not as wrong as having to leave cover to pick up ammunition left behind and returning to cover before shooting to avoid a procedural. Even with the best set of rules you can “what if” them into something unintended.

FWIW I don't remember seeing revolver neutral in the rule book. It does say "...the problems shooters are asked to solve must reflect reality." At least in this case they do as reality is, you are empty after 6 and others are after 9 or 11.

Sir,

Please refer to page 13 of the latest and greatest rule book under COF 22. CoF should be revolver neutral whenever possible. See Glossary for further details.

Revolver Neutral: A descriptive term for a COF which does not call for revolver shooters to do impossible things. The passage ends with "Think of revolvers when designating cover, reloads, and stage requirements."

I don't think the revolver was even considered when this stage was designed as any practical and reasonable shooter would have seen the cover as "a bridge too far" and reloaded at empty when it came. This was my first ESR match and I did as a good lemming running past two bad guys (with muzzle pointed downrange) to get to cover and initiate a reload.

For the shooter that mentioned something about dropping to a knee to reload: This COF required all shots to be fired on the move and stopping and dropping down to a position of disadvantage just doesn't seem right. Remember the targets were fairly close to the shooter as they retreated past. IDPA is tactics based and I would have had to tell that SO that his tactic was unacceptable after asking him to demonstrate exactly what he meant.

The rule about sufficient cover use to fire is sufficient cover to reload also gets me here. If I am not using cover to fire as I am rereating because it is not yet available should I not be able to reload and shoot some more as it is still not available?...i.e. I am on my way to it.

I am not saying that you should butt heads with every SO you come across, but not every person that is an SO is knowledgable and conversant with respect to the rules and mission of IDPA and has the best interest of every shooter in mind when providing a ruling on how the COF should be shot. I try to provide the shooter with the fastest legal method of shooting the course or the simplest depending on skill level. People tend to SO with the same generosity/attitude they compete with.

None of this is intended to bash IDPA or its rules. This is just a big vague spot in the rulebook for me and I seek clarification so that I can be a better competitor and SO.

[lugnut]

Forrest- good points and I agree. Sometimes it's difficult to consider ALL options for all divisions but this one would be pretty easy to fix up. In the end all revo's are competing against each other.. but SO's can do better than what happened to you. Did you have a polite conversation with the MD/SOs?

[Chris Christian]

I agree that this is a very poorly desaigned stage. From what I gather, you had to engage targets with 12 rounds while retreating to cover. Does that mean (and I don't have that COF description available to me) that EVERY SHOT must be made while retreating... if that's the case it can't be accomplished under IDPA rules because no gun gets to hold 12 rounds. And IF THAT WAS the COF then cover would not be available and shooters IMHO could reload in the open... in the absence of cover available... to complete the requirement that ALL ROUNDS BE FIRED WHILE RETREATING towards cover. Did the COF say that targets not engaged while moving can be re-engaged once cover is reached? If that is the case then the shooter can reach cover, reload, and engage using cover and not have to shoot the remaining targets on the move. As far as being revolver neutral... few COFs are, and as a revolver shooter I don't worry about it. But, the COF you describe is a very poorly designed one, unless it gives the shooter the option of emptying the gun, reaching cover, reloading, and engaging the remaining targets from cover. If that is the case, it's not overly bad.... but still not well done.

Chris Christian

[Forrest Halley]

I did not get into it with the guy that SO'd me because I had been ten years getting a moonclip out of a barrel on the previous stage and he was nice enough to run me through the stage even though he was not there officially working the match. It was later as I got better with the revolver that I realized that was a bogus stage. I have since chatted with the match director about it but he's got a likeable tendency to be set in his ways.

Mr. Christian: Idpa rules state that a reload must be initiated from behind cover when available. Emptying the cylinder counts as initiating the reload and is thus worthy of a 3 second PrizE. The COF was engage the targets with 2+1 while retreating to cover. It was a case of everybody went to cover and finished their reload and re-engagement. The issue I am airing is what defines available cover since I had to run by two threats and give them the chance to engage me in lieu of using the element of surprise/lapse in the threats OODA loop I had just generated to reload and continue the fight on the run. As I never pause in retreating/advancing to reload so this does not give me a competitive advantage I am still going to get to cover and have to take shots from it like everyone else.

[GForceLizard]

I'm sorry that I have no proof but this is what I was told when I took the SO course. Since there are 12 shots the other division shooters will need to keep moving but can reload from slide lock without diving under cover first. The exception for revolvers is they can stop moving and do their reload. After the cylinder is closed they have to start moving. I think this is one of the clarifications that's part of the new rule book when it comes out. No I don't know when that will be.

I'd like IDPA to have a rules clarification page on their site. Too much of this information gets to us 2nd hand. How do you prove it at a match?

[jmorris]

Sir,

Please refer to page 13 of the latest and greatest rule book under COF 22. CoF should be revolver neutral whenever possible. See Glossary for further details.

Sure enough, I guess it's time for me to reread it.

Revolver Neutral: A descriptive term for a CoF which does not

call for revolver shooters to do impossible things. This does NOT

mean that every CoF should require six (6) rounds or less. This

does mean that, if a CoF requires a tactical reload, the tactical

reload will be called for before six (6) rounds have been expended.

You cannot ask a person with an empty gun to retain unexpended

rounds. Think of revolvers when designating cover, reloads and

stage requirements.

I guess in the case above it's not impossible and the so can say "every one runs dry and has to go to cover to reload." I also agree that when the stage was put together "Think of revolvers" didn't happen.

[Steve Koski]

I think cover is available. It's over there. We can all see it. Who cares where the other targets are.

So shoot empty, hustle to cover, reload, finish the stage.

Simple as pie.

[kct45acp]

FWIW I don't remember seeing revolver neutral in the rule book. It does say "...the problems shooters are asked to solve must reflect reality." At least in this case they do as reality is, you are empty after 6 and others are after 9 or 11.

I just noticed your post with the rule and definition

Having shot revolver for the past several years almost exclusively, I have run in to some stage that were difficult for a revo shooter. I just ask enough questions to figure out how to do my best with the stage and go from there.

Not enough match directors shoot revolvers to understand the unique challenges the guns offer.

I would challenge any IDPA match director to shoot a revolver for 6 months(including at least one sanctioned match) to help increase there understanding of the round gun.

Some of them might find they enjoy it.

Wayne Ritchie

IDPA Area Coordinator

Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana

Edited April 30, 2010 by kct45acp

[Strick]

Not enough match directors shoot revolvers to understand the unique challenges the guns offer.

I would challenge any IDPA match director to shoot a revolver for 6 months(including at least one sanctioned match) to help increase there understanding of the round gun.

Some of them might find they enjoy it.

Wayne Ritchie

IDPA Area Coordinator

Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana

Not trying to turn this into a revolver thread but I don't fully agree with the above. The reason there are 5 divisions is so a ssr revolver doesn't compete against a esp 2011 9mm. Having said that I do agree that I have shot many stages that were not even close to revolver friendly and I try to take revolvers into consideration when I set up my stages. Things like the set up talked about in this stage is pretty obvious. However some revolver shooters complain when everything is not broken into 6 shot array's, so I think the entire revolver species get labeled as "the boy that dried wolf"

[Forrest Halley]

I just noticed your post with the rule and definition

Having shot revolver for the past several years almost exclusively, I have run in to some stage that were difficult for a revo shooter. I just ask enough questions to figure out how to do my best with the stage and go from there.

Not enough match directors shoot revolvers to understand the unique challenges the guns offer.

I would challenge any IDPA match director to shoot a revolver for 6 months(including at least one sanctioned match) to help increase there understanding of the round gun.

Some of them might find they enjoy it.

Wayne Ritchie

IDPA Area Coordinator

Arkansas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana

Great to hear from an area coordinator! Maybe you can suggest that Revolvers get to reload on the run as a rule change. That oughta help Jerry beat everybody including the autos. Ok so maybe that has less of a chance than having available cover clearly defined by a max distance to the shooter when the stage begins or a clear statement that the cover is available if it's on the stage anywhere.