EZWinScore in the real world

[Skydiver]

Latching on to Nik's suggestion, in the old thread, I'm starting this new thread asking how does your club use EZW in the real world.

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Do you use Palm's?

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

Other people jump in here and post other questions that feel are relevant.

We may also learn some tricks/tips from various people's responses, so please jump in.

[High Lord Gomer]

For our local matches that only have 20-25 people...

I enter the stages a day or two before and print scoresheets and make copies.

I register on paper when people show up.

In between shooting stages I go back to my laptop and enter the people and whatever scores are ready.

No palms, no other machines used, no verification.

I use the mouse very little.

I only DQ people who are beating me (and I do it as soon as possible).

I try to get the results ready as people are tearing down the stages.

I occasionally post the results to our website from the range using my Droid as a modem (using PDANet).

[lneel]

I enter stages as provided by the match director into my master Palm.

We register most people online before a match and I enter them into EZWinscore with squadding done at that time.

We have a sign-in verification/Squad list printed for those who registered online with spots open on squads available to walk-ins.

Walk-ins sign up via a regular sign-in list and are added to EZWinscore/squads as they come in.

Stages are sucked into EZWinscore and competitors are push from/to the master Palm with 10 Palm walk-ins defined for those real late comers.

Master palm setup is beamed to additional palms to match the number of squads.

All my Palms have SD cards and StageScore is set to write to them to insure no data is lost in the event a Palm dies. Each of my Palms has an external battery pack and will last ALL day IF it is turned on.

Each squad gets a Palm and a thermal printer. (Squads I like get a Bluetooth printer, I only have 3) and then everyone is off to the show.

At the end of the match, I beam from the squad palms to the master palm and then suck the data into EZWinscore. Scores are uploaded to USPSA as we drive from the range a local eatery.

Never again will I score via paper and spend 2-3 hours after the match entering data manually.

After Area 5 I will have Palms and printers for sale. I will keep enough for local matches but the rest has got to go. Daddy needs a new Open gun and I have WAY, WAY too many Palms and Printers. PM me if you have any interest.

[Jim Norman]

Latching on to Nik's suggestion, in the old thread, I'm starting this new thread asking how does your club use EZW in the real world.

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

We have an online registration form that we use to gather the names, USPSA #, Class and Div., etc. of the people that expect to show up to shoot. On match day they still need to sign the waiver and fillout a short form with any changes to their information. I do have a check list that I use to see who has showed up and to verify their division.

Do you use Palm's?

Yes. We use Stage Score, essentially very happy.

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

The Palms MUST stay on the stage, that way if you trash or otherwise lose a Palm you only lose one stage but you lose it for everyone. If the Palm travels, you can lose the whole match for that squad.

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

No. We use one PC after we get the info off the Palms. We do use multiple Palms and have at lease one Master Palm

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

No

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Not anymore. That is what we diod pre-Palm

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

No. but then again with the Palms this is essentially a non-starter

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

All depends, With EZ you almost need the mouse. It would be REAL nice if we didn't need to mouse.

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

At the end of the match, but we do have the RO on the squad come get one of us to explain the why.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

NO. Then again, we don't do re-entry except in rare cases of shooting a classifier multiple times or in multiple divisions.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Jim

[matt2ace]

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

I try to pre-register as many as possible, especially groups traveling together.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Pre-registration opens about a week before the match.

Do you use Palm's?

Yes, StageScore.

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

Palm stay with the squad. We found this was the easiest way to operate for monthly matches.

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

No need with palm scoring

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

No need with palm scoring

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Yes, If we did not use palms

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

Don't need to with palm scoring

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

I would prefer keyboard only, but use a mouse and the KB for entries

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

End of match. The squad RO will inform me of the details for the record and I do the entry a during the checking process.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

Very few re-entries, always ends up being the classifier. Typically, I do these as a manual entry of the score after I have downloaded the palm scores.

[GAPEACH]

Q's related to a local monthly match (major matches answered separately in a different post -- later)

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

Standard facilities used; most competitors are returniing and are registered from masternames.db. New competitors get automatically saved into masternames.db for next time.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Day of the match.

Do you use Palm's?

No.

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

For a local 1-day match? No, no need.

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

Most times yes (me!), sometimes no.

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

When we haven't scored at the range, of course, yes, what else?

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

Yes, of course. Either that, or print out verify sheets. You HAVE to verify your data entry, else you're not completely doing your job.

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

Score entry can be done entirely from keyboard using competitor numbers. Honestly, people, there's nothing wrong with having to use a mouse for some things. I's...WINDOWS. It's MEANT to be used with a mouse! Picking people out of masternames.db to register isn't tedious, it isn't "time-consuming", it isn't "painstaking:. It's simple.

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

I save them up in a "hassle" folder, along with PF changes. (I learned that from Joy Hyden while scoring the nationals.)

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

What issues? Re-entry works fine when used as designed and documented. I register everyone's "for match" entries first. Only then will I register any classifier reshoots.

[GAPEACH]

GAPEACH?!! Why am I logged onto Cindy's userid?!?!?! Last post was from Bill....

[wgnoyes]

There! That's better!

[Jim Norman]

Picking the names IS Tedious and a Hassle.

Look at the Steel Scoring Program. MUCH easier to use.

I am still looking to be able to import the required data for scoring from the sign-up form dump (Excel or CSV)straight into EZ. I DON'T need the MasterNames except with regard to classification updates. All that information is much more manageable in other systems.

Ez is NOT.

Jim

[wgnoyes]

Picking the names IS Tedious and a Hassle.

Look at the Steel Scoring Program. MUCH easier to use.

I am still looking to be able to import the required data for scoring from the sign-up form dump (Excel or CSV)straight into EZ. I DON'T need the MasterNames except with regard to classification updates. All that information is much more manageable in other systems.

Ez is NOT.

Yes it is, too. It's NOT tedious, it's NOT a hassle. I've already demonstrated that. (10 seconds to register one guy is far from tedious!) It works well, and it works fast.

You don't need masternames? Really? So when you start typing in a name, where's he going to fill in the information from?

Now, DOS EzScore did do something that would be nice, and that was you could go into masternames and tag names to enter (run up and down the list and space-bar the people you wanted to select them, then hit "okay" or some such and they were registered one after the other in order of selection as a batch. But that was in the days when you only had one division. I don't see how that would work now with 6 divisions. You see, you make a big deal about being able to just start typing a name and he goes and gets all the info and that sounds all well and good, but how would you select the division without going back to the hated reviled mouse? For that matter, what about powerfactors? Law? Military? Age? Foreign? Squad number? Squad-with number? Female?

I'm not against what you want, but once again, there are more pressing things to be done (steel challenge, match director's awards script, and you're jumping around about something that just simply, in my opinion, isn't broken.

[Jim Norman]

Steel Challenge is largely done and has the population method is essentially what I am looking for. As for divisions, same applies. As for Masternames, IF we are loading from the EZ program we need it, but on the otherhand, if we are loading from a defined database collected from our registration webform, then for that we would NOT need Masternames as such.

But, I will admit, I am not a computer programmer, but I am a computer user.

Jim

[wgnoyes]

Q's related to a major match (Level 2 or higher)

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

Standard facilities used; most competitors are returning and are registered from masternames.db. New competitors get automatically saved into masternames.db for next time. I've been scoring matches since 1992 and my masternames.db has over 2700 names in it now.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Major match registration is a months-long project. We start taking registration forms for Area 6 in December for a match that's in April. During that time, there's constant uploading to and downloading from USPSA's Self Service Squadding, classification updates, membership verifications, matching names to what USPSA has, reacting to USPSA membership number changes, and that's just within EZWS and the website. Paul Erhardt also wants lists of competitors for publicity and wire stories, and Cindy wants exported data for shirt lists, RO lists, and whatnot.

Do you use Palm's?

No.

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

400 shooters, 12 stages, 1 1/2 days to score it all. Let me think...YES! My computer room will be running three systems this weekend, networked together through wifi and sharing a central printer. Any system is available to key in stage results from any stage.

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

Yes, of course, for a major match.

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

N/A for a major match.

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

No. We key in a batch of scoresheets, then print the verify listing for that batch for that stage. The listing becomes the cover sheet that is folded around the scoresheets, and we note on the cover sheet on which system is was keypunched for later possible correction on that same system. Then it's handed off to the verify staff. When they're done with it, they file it by stage number.

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

Data entry with competitors labels on scoresheets with the competitor number on the label is entirely a 10-key exercise. We can key in 4 to 5 scoresheets a minute on any given system.

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

In a multi-system shop, you DEFINITELY hold DQ's (and PF changes) for the end after the final merge. Otherwise you have to make sure you apply an individual DQ to all the systems in the room, else you risk having a mess. When you're running master/slave(s), the concept of "change control" becomes a big deal for the sake of data integrity.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

No classifier reshoots or re-entries in a major match.

Now, Jim hops around wanting his auto-fillin feature for registration. You want to know what I hop around for? I want to see a real client-server system where multiple systems are all updating the same match database and we don't have to care which system keys in what. But that represents a fairly significant software licensing issue for the database access method for a real multi-user SQL server. (Even the free ones aren't free when it comes to redistribution.) And to be honest, it might be so daunting for the average person whose computer skills only just barely qualify him or her as a marginal browser user and email sender to set up a network that there wouldn't really be all that many of us making use of what would be a big deal to design and implement.

The other I want which is doeable (I'm doing it now with an external .ASP application that does SQL queries against the completed match) is a simple 1-2 page report per division of who won what (Top 16, Top 8 Women, Match Winner and Title Winner for each, stage winners for each, Class winners, category winners) that I press a single button and it comes out, and I can then hand it to a certain nationals-level match director who has screwed up awards ceremonies before and then blamed stats and tell him "here, all you have to do is read this top to bottom and you'll do fine". (Dates from 2003; Joy and I are STILL steamed about that!)

[LChico]

Local match

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

No. We register on a paper form. That way anyone can do the EZW registration (myself or one of 5 backup scorekeepers) while we take turns shooting.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Day of the match

Do you use Palm's?

No

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

N/A

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

Not for the local match

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

Yes. Again, we rotate through me & Mike & Julie & John, etc. So everyone gets to shoot.

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Never

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

Yes. Only for local matches

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

I try to never use the mouse. . .

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

At the local match, pretty quickly. Often the shooter leaves the range. Not much chance of it being reversed.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

Since we are registering from a separate sheet, that is nearly impossible.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited April 16, 2010 by LChico

[LChico]

Major match - Level 2 or higher

How does your club use EZWinscore for match registration?

No. I 'register' in an Access database or an Excel spreadsheet. There are too many things I need to keep track of at a major match & EWS is simply the scoring program. It doesn't track my shirt sales, revenue from fees, shirts or other charges, refunds, match staff, or multiple days of shooting. From the other two 'registration sheets,' I can run custom reports, send mail merge email messages, and literally track the entire match from one place.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

Unlike probably every other major match stats person, I put everyone into EWS after I complete squadding - I do not use the online squadding - and I usually do that about 3 days before the match starts.

Do you use Palm's?

No

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

N/A

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

Yes. Master & slaves are not networked. Low Tech but reliable

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

Yes. Multiple folks for data entry & verification (done on paper).

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Never

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

Only for the last 2 or 3 scoresheets - we call for a "screen verify" & someone literally stands at your shoulder to provide a second witness. We don't stop to print the last 2 or 3 verify scores per stage, so that we can start printing stage results quicker.

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

I try to never use the mouse. . . Especially at a major match

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

DQ's, power factor changes & any "demographic" changes are put in a folder. The changes are made in all computers at the same time.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

Since I register everyone at once, and in alphabetical order, it is not a problem.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

Edited April 16, 2010 by LChico

[LChico]

I understand that things are done differently at other ranges & other matches. I don't use Palms, but understand that some stats officers & match directors love them. I don't use on-line squadding, but understand that it has many fans. I do not network my computers, but there are stats people who swear by this. I don't use barcodes, but this also has its fans.

I find the entire label creation area useless. I always have to export registration to create labels. The labels that come with the program either have too much detail (the stage name) or not enough (I prefer categories on my labels).

I would like the "No penalty miss" box off the screen when not required for the stage (much like B's disappear when you select Classic targets, or the NS box disappears when you tell the program the stage does not have NS targets). This can be an option to select on stage set-up. "Does the stage have No Penalty Miss Targets?" Yes or No. And if you select YES, it should add a column for NPM to the scoresheet (this was an option in the old DOS based EasyScore).

I would like a simple back up routine. I want a key that copies the db match file to a USB drive. I back up frequently at major matches.

I would like a system that "remembers" my settings. In "Enter Scores," I always un-check the "use score verify box," and check "Show zeros." It would be nice if I did not have to do that every time I re-open the screen. I am sure other stats people have custom set-ups they would like to save.

I would like a squad list that lets me select a range of squads to print, rather than the entire match. On a half-day format that runs 4 days (like Summer Blast did), I'd like to just print the squads for that rotation, rather than the entire match.

And, like Jim, I would prefer to not use the mouse to register. In Steel Challenge, you start typing in a name, and have the registration list move to the correct shooter. I have over 3200 names in my master database file.

Alternately, ForScore (IDPA) lets you designate who is a local shooter. It basically creates a subset of the local match competitors. You can toggle the master list to only show your local group. That really cuts down on the 'search' time for local matches. If someone is not on the local list, you can quickly toggle to the entire list to check if the shooter is there, before you enter them as a new shooter in the database.

Again, I don't expect everyone to agree with my choices for improvements to EWS. I don't think my way is the only way to do things, or even the best way to do things. But I have been at this long enough to know what works for me.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Skydiver]

Now, Jim hops around wanting his auto-fillin feature for registration. You want to know what I hop around for? I want to see a real client-server system where multiple systems are all updating the same match database and we don't have to care which system keys in what. But that represents a fairly significant software licensing issue for the database access method for a real multi-user SQL server. (Even the free ones aren't free when it comes to redistribution.) And to be honest, it might be so daunting for the average person whose computer skills only just barely qualify him or her as a marginal browser user and email sender to set up a network that there wouldn't really be all that many of us making use of what would be a big deal to design and implement.

What's wrong with Firebird SQL? It lets USPSA keep the EzWinScore source code closed, but is free for redistribution without any viral effects of the GPL.

http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php?id=about-firebird&nosb=1

Sort of on the tangential topic of licensing, I'll ask the obvious: why not make EzWinScore open source? Won't opening up the source let people contribute their time and talent to get some of the features that are most requested, or fix standard pet peeves? USPSA can still hold the reins and say that only binaries built from the main trunk will be the sanctioned version, but people can add in the requested features into their work branches and submit those code changes to the EzWinScore dev team for application into the main trunk.

[wgnoyes]

Sort of on the tangential topic of licensing, I'll ask the obvious: why not make EzWinScore open source?

It's written in powerbuilder. You're talking about a total rewrite into something else. Well.... so are we, for that matter!

[wgnoyes]

...

I find the entire label creation area useless. I always have to export registration to create labels. The labels that come with the program either have too much detail (the stage name) or not enough (I prefer categories on my labels).

I clammoured for and got put in the generic scoresheet labels that are there starting in 3.0. I saw those out of Bruce Gary's pre-processor MSAccess program at a Nationals and liked the great big competitor number and name, and that you didn't have to stick this specific label on this stage. Just print out 15 labels a shooter, stick in his match packet, and you find the scoresheets on the stages. (You also don't have to wait around for the RM to bring stage X a reshoot scoresheet.)

I would like a system that "remembers" my settings. In "Enter Scores," I always un-check the "use score verify box," and check "Show zeros." It would be nice if I did not have to do that every time I re-open the screen. I am sure other stats people have custom set-ups they would like to save.

I want the "use score verify box" turned on. I'm so used to it, my keystroke sequence would be all off it if were gone. (That'd be like I've been playing the Beethoven Waldstein sonata for the past 40 years and here comes someone whose uncovered a major unknown revision.)

I would like a squad list that lets me select a range of squads to print, rather than the entire match. On a half-day format that runs 4 days (like Summer Blast did), I'd like to just print the squads for that rotation, rather than the entire match.

Print the entire listing to pdf, then pick and choose the pages you want. That's what I do.

And I don't know ANYBODY that uses the barcode labels! I've tried them. Yes, it works, yes, it absolutely eliminates keying in for the wrong competitor, but it's actually a bit slower to use.

[Skydiver]

Sort of on the tangential topic of licensing, I'll ask the obvious: why not make EzWinScore open source?

It's written in powerbuilder. You're talking about a total rewrite into something else. Well.... so are we, for that matter!

I don't think it'll need a total rewrite. For anybody who'll want to contribute, they'll have to buy Powerbuilder on their own. (Hopefully it's a version of Powerbuilder that is still available for download/purchase from Sybase.) Beyond that barrier to entry, why not open up the source?

The current product info page for Powerbuilder claims native support for Microsoft SQL Server. Why not use SQL Server 2008 Express as the database engine? It's free, can be freely distributed, and supports the client-server access for multi machine operations.

[Skydiver]

...

I would like a squad list that lets me select a range of squads to print, rather than the entire match. On a half-day format that runs 4 days (like Summer Blast did), I'd like to just print the squads for that rotation, rather than the entire match.

Print the entire listing to pdf, then pick and choose the pages you want. That's what I do.

That's an excellent tip!

[Byrons]

There are any number of free and freely redistributable database engines. Microsoft SQL Server, Oracle, MySQL, etc. That is not the issue. The problem is that to connect to the databases would take a change to the program, and possibly an upgrade to a more recent version that would allow it to communicate correctly. Beyond that, as soon as you start touching the database from multiple instances of an application you run into concurrency issues. What do you do when two people enter the same person? What about two people trying to enter scores at the same time? Issues like that have to be addressed in the database and/or application, and that means extra programming effort.

As to the cost of a total rewrite, that can be done without any additional licensing cost IF you switch languages. You can do it free using Microsoft .NET and SQL Server for instance. Of course that does not address the cost of the developers, but you may be able to pull it off using slave - I mean volunteer – labor in an Open Source environment. This is something I’ve advocated before, but it is not an easy thing to pull off and would probably take a year or more to get it completed correctly. If it were rewritten using a current Microsoft environment you would greatly increase the pool of people that could maintain it, thereby increasing speed and frequency of feature updates and reducing costs.

So, how bad do you want/need feature changes?

There are things that can be done outside the EZWinScore to ease your life if there is really something that needs to be done. I’ve written apps that pre-populate the database with names, exported to SQL databases, run reports, etc. Since the database is accessible, there isn’t much you can’t do.

Sort of on the tangential topic of licensing, I'll ask the obvious: why not make EzWinScore open source?

It's written in powerbuilder. You're talking about a total rewrite into something else. Well.... so are we, for that matter!

I don't think it'll need a total rewrite. For anybody who'll want to contribute, they'll have to buy Powerbuilder on their own. (Hopefully it's a version of Powerbuilder that is still available for download/purchase from Sybase.) Beyond that barrier to entry, why not open up the source?

The current product info page for Powerbuilder claims native support for Microsoft SQL Server. Why not use SQL Server 2008 Express as the database engine? It's free, can be freely distributed, and supports the client-server access for multi machine operations.

[raz-0]

Yes it is, too. It's NOT tedious, it's NOT a hassle. I've already demonstrated that. (10 seconds to register one guy is far from tedious!) It works well, and it works fast.

You don't need masternames? Really? So when you start typing in a name, where's he going to fill in the information from?

Now, DOS EzScore did do something that would be nice, and that was you could go into masternames and tag names to enter (run up and down the list and space-bar the people you wanted to select them, then hit "okay" or some such and they were registered one after the other in order of selection as a batch. But that was in the days when you only had one division. I don't see how that would work now with 6 divisions. You see, you make a big deal about being able to just start typing a name and he goes and gets all the info and that sounds all well and good, but how would you select the division without going back to the hated reviled mouse? For that matter, what about powerfactors? Law? Military? Age? Foreign? Squad number? Squad-with number? Female?

I'm not against what you want, but once again, there are more pressing things to be done (steel challenge, match director's awards script, and you're jumping around about something that just simply, in my opinion, isn't broken.

*SNIP*

and I've already shown that a typical selection of someone off masternames.db takes (animated timed example I have shown) around 10 seconds, and let's say at the most twice that? I don't think that's a big deal. Assume 20 seconds for a shooter off masternames. 3 a minute. You can populate a 90-man show in a half hour. (I'm more careful than that and thus slower, since I'm making sure I haven't skipped anyone on the paper signup sheet, as I enter scores by competitor number.) "Timeconsuming"? "Painstaking"? Come on, now.   

Entering people into a match is horrifically time consuming and annoying. Yeah, your animated timed examples may take 10-20 seconds. That's when you are effectively "racing" through the UI to time it and portray it in a positive light. you yourself close off with the fact it takes you longer per shooter. 

I mean seriously, why do I have to leave the screen where you type in new people. Autocomplete with a pull down menu right on that screen would mean I can cruise. It would also mean clicking save would make sense. Alternately, allowing me to control click to select multiple people on the masternames screen, even with it oddly separated by letter, would speed things up considerably for the regular attendees of monthly matches. Also, even when picking them off of the masternames list, just assume I want to save the person. I'm not selecting them and clicking add for my health. 

If you are signing up people to an ad hoc monthly match of reasonable size where everyone is a walk on, the UI is pretty slow and tedious. 

Also, being able to shift click or control click to move more than one person on the squadding screen would make squadding a WHOLE lot faster.  That is ESPECIALLY painful on a laptop with a track pad.  With control click, squadding our smaller indoor match would go form taking a few minutes to taking probably 15-20 seconds. 

Jim's not embellishing.  I was doing the scoring for our twice a month indoor match.  EZ-winscore was slow and tedious enough it constantly had people bitching at me for how long it takes to get things going, and consequently I quit attending and doing anything for the match. 

EZ-winscore is obviously set up for a match where you register ahead of time, have multiple people scoring, and will likely be entering part of a shooters match results rather than all at once.  It's not a particularly good fit for the one man show doing scoring for a whole match at once at the end of the match, and where signups are all walking on at the beginning of the match day. 

I moved this form the other thread due to window confusion and having multiple thereads open in multiple windows. 

But I'll add an answer  to the complaint of how would you handle division, senior, military, etc. It's simple. Handle it like the squadding screen. Except have shift and control click to drag and drop. For example, hav ea division screen. On the left are the registered shooters. On the right are all the divisions.  there you go. That's a mouse and tab centric way of doing it. 

Better yet, eliminate select form master names, and have all match entry done from the user info tab. Except have the first field be the last name, and have an autocomplete pull down list.  I type in N, and i hav ea choice of all N names, follow on with o, and there's Jim Norman X people down.  Then you have divsion work similar. Class is type a single letter, have the next few tabbings take you through senior, super senior, etc. Then tab takes you to SAVE. THEN tab takes you to all the record keeping and contact stuff you don't need to score a match, but might want only once or twice per shooter over a long period of time. There, that's a keyboard-centric way of achieving faster data entry.  (ohyeah, and when you click save, just save, put the cursor back in the last name field, and blank all the fields. that way I can get moving again ASAP without a mouse involved). 

Feature creep makes things a mess. It has made EZ-winscore a mess, and doubly so for certain types of users. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt by someone. When I use it, I can see for the most part how and why it wound up like it is. but that doesn't mean what sucks to use doesn't suck. 

As to the OPs questionnaire.  

As the former scorekeeper(for years) and guy who did lots of work for our 2x a month indoor match:

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

No. the match is geared towards easing new shooters into the sport, and we don't want to place barriers there for them like pre-reg.

Do you use Palm's?

Yes. 

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage? 

Stay on the stage

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

One Machine

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

No.

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Yes.

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

no.

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

I'd like to be able to just key stuf in as fast as possible. But the program makes it impossibel to not be mousing every other minute. 

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

end of the match. 

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

When scoring paper only, we do all the data entry at once after the match is over, so we don't have much issue with re-entry unless we fat finger someone. 

As the co-director of the Central Jersey match.

Do you pre-register days/weeks before the match, or do you enter competitors the day of the match?

No. 

Do you use Palm's?

No.

If you use Palm's do they go with the squad or stay on the stage?

N/A

Do you use multiple machines (master/slave) to enter scores?

No.

Does somebody enter scores while the match is going?

No.

Does somebody take home all the scoresheets and enters all of the scores after the match?

Yes.

Do you use the checkboxes in the verification for stats pages?

no.

Do you use a mouse often or try to keep your hands on the keyboard?

I'd like to be able to just key stuf in as fast as possible. But the program makes it impossibel to not be mousing every other minute. 

Do you handle DQ's as they come in, or only at the end of the match?

End of the match.

Do you have to be paranoid about matching entry forms with shooter numbers because of EZWinScore's issues with RE-ENTRY?

We score paper only, we do all the data entry at once after the match is over, so we don't have much issue with re-entry unless we fat finger someone. 

[wgnoyes]

It's not slow and tedious to me. The example was NOT specifically selected for artificial speed; that's really how it works for me. Again, I'M NOT AGAINST ADDING SOMETHING LIKE JIM WANTS!! (and I'm also not the one who makes the decision yet -- have any of you gone to Roger Maier with this?), but please don't paint it as being a critical showstopping problem, because it isn't.

[wgnoyes]

Roger has said that even with the "free" SQL servers, there are licensing issues when you redistribute for sale. I don't know, I'm not a software attorney.

Yes, of course there are enqueue/dequeue issues with multiple people updating the same database. (Same record? Not likely, as there's only one scoresheet per stage per competitor, but still possible for other things in the database, of course.)

Powerbuilder is still pretty expensive, and I've looked at it, and the only good reason I can think of to stay with it is the time and expense required to write it again in something else.

Edited April 17, 2010 by wgnoyes

[Byrons]

If you are going to allow more than one client to touch a database at the same time there will be concurrency issues, and if the database and application are not designed to account for the issues there will be anomolies. Most often they will be minor, such as two people changing the spelling of the same name at the same time and one losing, or more serious, such as deadlocking that can bring the application to a standstill. When multi-user databases were invented, Gremlins celebrated by inventing new, more painful, and harder to find software bugs.

I don't believe the database licensing should be an impediment and most licenses are now written so you don't have to be an attorney. I understand the time and cost issues, and something that exists and is adequate is often the right choice. However, if you're adding features there comes a point where an obsolete technology becomes an issue.

If users are rising up in protest - and I don't know that they are - maybe a middle ground is to open it up to a project by members in parallel and may the best product win. An incumbent developer obviously has a vested interest in continuing the project, and even if their motives are pure, also tends to get tunnel vision. Supply the group of software slaves with the current technical documentation and wish-list and a contact in USPSA, then turn them loose and see what they produce by x date. On x date, review the product and make a decision - Throw it away and banish the slaves, keep it as-is, make further modifications using the slaves, or turn the source over to a software house to refine.

The following links are to the licensing documents for Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Express, and Oracle Database 10G Express products. Both are free, and freely redistributable. Microsoft requires that you register to redistribute though.

http://www.microsoft.com/sqlserver/2008/en/us/express/redistregister.aspx

http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/database/xe/index.html

Roger has said that even with the "free" SQL servers, there are licensing issues when you redistribute for sale. I don't know, I'm not a software attorney.

Yes, of course there are enqueue/dequeue issues with multiple people updating the same database. (Same record? Not likely, as there's only one scoresheet per stage per competitor, but still possible for other things in the database, of course.)

Powerbuilder is still pretty expensive, and I've looked at it, and the only good reason I can think of to stay with it is the time and expense required to write it again in something else.