Bad Habits

[OkieZombies]

I want to start practicing more at home.... dry-fire, draw, reload, etc.

With that said, practice isn't useful if it just instills bad habits.

I'm finally getting formal training at the end of May so that might help with technique.

Some issues I have:

1. General shooting. Glock - I ALWAYS tend to pull shots left. If I go to a range, get a lane. Set up a target and aim at a bullseye, the farther the distance, the more the shot pulls left. They still group nicely. Under 15 yards, they are "A"s. After that, they might drift into "C" territory. I've tried to diagnose it. I think there is something subtle about the trigger that is causing this. There is the take-up, and then there is that stack. The stack and over-travel may be what's killing me. Without fixing the hardware (changing the trigger pull or installing aftermarket parts) what on my part can I do to fix this?

Other info: I am left-eye dominant and shoot pistol right handed. I use the pad of my finger. I use a high, thumbs forward grip. On my Sig and Ruger GP100, this problem is far less pronounced. Current trigger set up is stock recoil spring and 3.5# connector.

2. The Draw. Glock - I'm running a G17 with a stock guide rod. I feel the force of my muscles pressing tightly on the gun, and it feels too fast. I am not using a death-grip or over-muscling, but I think it's the combination of trying to move something that is 2 lbs with the amount of force I would use to do a 200 lb power clean. I have heard the metal guide-rods balance the pistol better. But it just doesn't feel smooth - the draw feels jerky.

From hands above shoulders - I come down, grasp Glock with web of hand, begin to pull up while closing grip. Support hand is at my solar plexus, the two hands meet and push forward.

Other info: This is less pronounced on my Sig because it's heavier and feels better balanced.

3. The Indian or the Arrow: I am sure GMs could shoot a hi-point better than me with an open STI gun.... but how important are subjective factors such as the feel of the grip, the feel of the balance, the feel of the trigger, to the performance of the shooter (and also maybe the enjoyment and competitiveness).

Size/Grip: For example, say Shooter A has really small hands. Would it make more sense for them to shoot a Glock 19 than a Glock 17? Objectively, we can say they are decreasing sight radius, grip size, and barrel length. But subjectively, does the increase in control and comfort make up for this?

Ergonomics: If based on feeling alone an XD or M&P feels better in the shooters hands - will there be any objective benefit in terms of handling and control for that shooter to use a more comfortable platform over another?

Driving: When driving the gun - is it okay to give up sight radius/length for something that is easier to see/balance/control? If a Glock 19 balances better than a Glock 34 - should the shooter just try to tinker with the balance of the Glock 34 or go for the 19?

Signed,

Curious

Edited April 2, 2010 by OkieZombies

[PeterMor]

For #1 have a look at this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=98853

[McAllyn]

While I don't have any empirical evidence, I would say that most people will initially perform better with a platform that is the most comfortable. (Not that subjective things like "grip feel" cannot be overcome.)

While most people in this game tend to look for the longest site radius, there are arguments for both sides, such as longer site radius helps for longer shots and shorter site radius (shorter barrel) makes for a lighter front end for transitions.

All in all, I'd repeat the thing I've heard over and over, "Get something that fits you and practice, practice, practice."

Mac

[Jake Di Vita]

1. General shooting. Glock - I ALWAYS tend to pull shots left. If I go to a range, get a lane. Set up a target and aim at a bullseye, the farther the distance, the more the shot pulls left. They still group nicely. Under 15 yards, they are "A"s. After that, they might drift into "C" territory. I've tried to diagnose it. I think there is something subtle about the trigger that is causing this. There is the take-up, and then there is that stack. The stack and over-travel may be what's killing me. Without fixing the hardware (changing the trigger pull or installing aftermarket parts) what on my part can I do to fix this?

Other info: I am left-eye dominant and shoot pistol right handed. I use the pad of my finger. I use a high, thumbs forward grip. On my Sig and Ruger GP100, this problem is far less pronounced. Current trigger set up is stock recoil spring and 3.5# connector.

If the sights are on the target when the bullet leaves the barrel, it's impossible to miss.

2. The Draw. Glock - I'm running a G17 with a stock guide rod. I feel the force of my muscles pressing tightly on the gun, and it feels too fast. I am not using a death-grip or over-muscling, but I think it's the combination of trying to move something that is 2 lbs with the amount of force I would use to do a 200 lb power clean. I have heard the metal guide-rods balance the pistol better. But it just doesn't feel smooth - the draw feels jerky.

From hands above shoulders - I come down, grasp Glock with web of hand, begin to pull up while closing grip. Support hand is at my solar plexus, the two hands meet and push forward.

Other info: This is less pronounced on my Sig because it's heavier and feels better balanced.

Basically, you need to do a couple 50,000 more draws.

Use the amount of force you feel works the best for you.

I would suggest you not pull the gun out of the holster until you have a solid grip. I would also suggest biasing the support hand to the strong side of the body during the draw. This enables you to get the support hand on the gun at the earliest possible moment of the draw stroke..

P.S. Oly lifting rocks!

3. The Indian or the Arrow: I am sure GMs could shoot a hi-point better than me with an open STI gun.... but how important are subjective factors such as the feel of the grip, the feel of the balance, the feel of the trigger, to the performance of the shooter (and also maybe the enjoyment and competitiveness).

Size/Grip: For example, say Shooter A has really small hands. Would it make more sense for them to shoot a Glock 19 than a Glock 17? Objectively, we can say they are decreasing sight radius, grip size, and barrel length. But subjectively, does the increase in control and comfort make up for this?

Shooter A should get the equipment best suited to his anthropometry. As others have said, it ultimately doesn't matter that much. Pick one, and practice. That being said, buy good equipment that you like and that functions well.

It's amazing how a lot of these things sort themselves out as you become a better shooter. Just grind away.

[JimmyZip]

[quote name='Jake Di Vita' date='02 April 2010 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1270252352' post='1185785'

Basically, you need to do a couple 50,000 more draws.

It's amazing how a lot of these things sort themselves out as you become a better shooter.

Just grind away.

Man that speaks to me right now.

[shooterbenedetto]

Dont get carried away from fast draws..get to that formal training

and practice religiously. Hope you never loose the drive is the key!

[Jake Di Vita]

I really don't believe formal training, especially in the beginning, is that necessary. There are hundreds of videos of the top shooters in the world in action. Video yourself and compare the two. Look for nuances. Someone who is diligent and hungry can teach themselves very well. This is especially true if money is an issue.

Most of the battle for new shooters is just getting the motor recruitment pattern for what we do efficient. Technique can and should be played with along the way.

[Graham Smith]

There is a really simple book titled "The Mechanics of X-Count Shooting" by Charles Stephens that is almost 100% about the basics - grip, trigger control, and follow through. It does a very good job of condensing a lot of very good advice into a few simple rules. (Caveat: there is a new "updated" version for sale that I have not seen, it may be better or it may be worse.)

As to the rest, just slow down and relax. Speed is the enemy when you are trying to learn the basics.

[jkatz44]

There is a really simple book titled "The Mechanics of X-Count Shooting" by Charles Stephens that is almost 100% about the basics - grip, trigger control, and follow through. It does a very good job of condensing a lot of very good advice into a few simple rules. (Caveat: there is a new "updated" version for sale that I have not seen, it may be better or it may be worse.)

As to the rest, just slow down and relax. Speed is the enemy when you are trying to learn the basics.

+1

Do not try to go very fast. First, just try to get all of the points. Once you start to learn more advanced techniques then speed will come.

[Chris iliff]

#1, I shot some Glocks when I first started shooting competitively, so did several of my friends. I did notice on two of my friends Glocks the rear site was slid clear off center. When asked they would respond with, "That's where it ended up after I sighted it in." My Glocks rear site was basically dead center and shot fine. Over time they slowly drifted the site back to the center. I don't think this was a gun issue, I think that it was a shooter issue. As they became accostomed to the Glocks and shot them more, I think they worked it out.

I'll never forget one friend, knee deep in brass, handing me his G22 in disgust, "You shoot this thing, I can't seem to get it sighted in." I briefly looked at the rear site and confirmed it was almost dead center, then promptly ran a plate machine clean at around 20-25 yards. "Nothing wrong with that gun," I said, as I handed it back to him.

I don't know the exact reasons for this shooting left, but I think it is a combination of the Glocks ergonomics and a lack of basic fundamentals on the shooters part. Glocks take some getting use to and if your fundamentals(trigger pull/grip) are not effective then the combination of things lead to this.

This is my experience and what I've seen on more than one Glock. I just always thought the above because of those experiences and the fact I could shoot those guns fine when the site was dead center. I hope this helps, in a nutshell, shoot the heck out of it and I'm sure you will work that "to the left" thing out. Good luck.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't know the exact reasons for this shooting left, but I think it is a combination of the Glocks ergonomics and a lack of basic fundamentals on the shooters part. Glocks take some getting use to and if your fundamentals(trigger pull/grip) are not effective then the combination of things lead to this.

He's shooting left because that is where the gun is pointed when the bullet exits the barrel. It isn't any more complex than that.

[Graham Smith]

I don't know the exact reasons for this shooting left...

Shooting down and to the left is often caused by squeezing and jerking the gun when the trigger is pulled. Here is a simple explanation of some of the things that can happen. It's intended for bullseye shooters and so it does not take into account the effect of the support hand (which can lend it's own effects), but it's a place to start.

[OkieZombies]

Went to the range tonight on the way home from dinner (it's convenient when the wife doesn't mind spending 30 minutes at the range on the way home).

I only shot my Sig 229.

NONE of my shots pulled to the left - regardless of DA or SA. The DA trigger is about 2x the weight and length of pull of the Glock, and the SA is about the same as the Glock (5.5#).

I think it may simply be an ergonomics issue. I've noticed it more and more with the Glock. This isn't to say I'm not improving and getting better with the platform - because I am. But, I notice that when shooting or even dry-firing, my finger moves from the pad towards the distal joint (that's the first crease right?). My hand is struggling to fit around the thing - and I thought I had big hands.

Glock is the only platform I've had this issue with, and it seems predominant only in the Glock 17. But either way.... it's either a mechanical problem similar to the thread in one of the comments aboove - or my hand just doesn't fit it.

To be fair.... at 10 yards, it may be an inch to an inch and a half left. It's not hugely noticeable and it still groups well. At 25 yards though, that 1-1.5" starts to turn into 4-5 inches.

Edited April 4, 2010 by OkieZombies

[Chris iliff]

I kinda turned my post into a long story, but what you are saying about the Glock is what I was saying. The guys I know who have experienced this with thier Glocks never experienced it with any other handgun. Just Glocks. That's what got me to thinking about it and trying to figure out why this was happening to them. As I said, over time this kinda fixed itself for them. I think that just shooting the Glock more and getting use to it, did it for them.

Of course, the bullet is going to go wherever the gun is pointing when it leaves the barrel. Nuances, gotta love them! Hope you keep shooting and get it all figured out, good luck.

[scap99]

I kinda turned my post into a long story, but what you are saying about the Glock is what I was saying. The guys I know who have experienced this with thier Glocks never experienced it with any other handgun. Just Glocks. That's what got me to thinking about it and trying to figure out why this was happening to them. As I said, over time this kinda fixed itself for them. I think that just shooting the Glock more and getting use to it, did it for them.

Of course, the bullet is going to go wherever the gun is pointing when it leaves the barrel. Nuances, gotta love them! Hope you keep shooting and get it all figured out, good luck.

Interestingly, this "phenomenon" is not relegated to Glocks only...XD platforms have their fair share of guys saying they shoot left. I've not had this problem with mine, but I can see if your finger is pushing the trigger away from your palm as you pull the trigger that the shot would go wide.

[OkieZombies]

This has made me think more and more about ergonomics than before, especially as it relates to accuracy. I could probably train, train, train and overcome that problem with Glock (and I love a challenge so we'll see what happens!)....

But there definitely has to be a certain quality to having a gun fit you out of the box. I guess that's why interchangeable backstraps are getting so popular - by the 4th Gen even Glock is doing it. I'm just wondering what took so long for manufacturers to start noticing! The Sig 226 finally came out with the E2, the Glocks finally introduced the slim frame a while back and finally came to modular backstraps in the 4th Gen.... compare the old HK USPs the the newer HK45 and P30. There are some major innovations in ergonomics going on.

I really think that's going to be the deciding factor in the next platform I invest in after trigger (manufacturer's must be noticing this too - everybody it adding short-trigger options, or going with Glock like triggers!).

Now if only they made a thing so you could know what size you need. Kind of like when you go to the shoe store and they measure your foot for both length and width, or the really fancy ones where they analyze your steps to see exactly the kind of shoe you need. You can run in over-sized shoes.... but it ain't helping nothing.

Edited April 4, 2010 by OkieZombies

[Matt Griffin]

I don't know the exact reasons for this shooting left, but I think it is a combination of the Glocks ergonomics and a lack of basic fundamentals on the shooters part. Glocks take some getting use to and if your fundamentals(trigger pull/grip) are not effective then the combination of things lead to this.

He's shooting left because that is where the gun is pointed when the bullet exits the barrel. It isn't any more complex than that.

Perzackly. Use the dummy bullet trick and observe what the gun does when you hit the dummy, then backtrack and figure out what your hands did right before the pull, etc. It's entirely a matter of observation when you have to correct big problems like this. Refinement of the correct stuff is different, that's just practice and dryfire.

H.

[Jake Di Vita]

Use the dummy bullet trick and observe what the gun does when you hit the dummy,

The problem with that trick is it doesn't differentiate between a flinch and compensating for recoil. Just dry fire until you can drop the hammer without disturbing the sights...then do the same thing in live fire.

[Matt Griffin]

Use the dummy bullet trick and observe what the gun does when you hit the dummy,

The problem with that trick is it doesn't differentiate between a flinch and compensating for recoil. Just dry fire until you can drop the hammer without disturbing the sights...then do the same thing in live fire.

True, but you shouldn't be compensating sideways. ;-)

H.

[Jake Di Vita]

Doesn't really matter how you compensate as long as you do it the same every time.

[Rob D]

This has made me think more and more about ergonomics than before, especially as it relates to accuracy. I could probably train, train, train and overcome that problem with Glock (and I love a challenge so we'll see what happens!)....

But there definitely has to be a certain quality to having a gun fit you out of the box. I guess that's why interchangeable backstraps are getting so popular - by the 4th Gen even Glock is doing it. I'm just wondering what took so long for manufacturers to start noticing! The Sig 226 finally came out with the E2, the Glocks finally introduced the slim frame a while back and finally came to modular backstraps in the 4th Gen.... compare the old HK USPs the the newer HK45 and P30. There are some major innovations in ergonomics going on.

I really think that's going to be the deciding factor in the next platform I invest in after trigger (manufacturer's must be noticing this too - everybody it adding short-trigger options, or going with Glock like triggers!).

Now if only they made a thing so you could know what size you need. Kind of like when you go to the shoe store and they measure your foot for both length and width, or the really fancy ones where they analyze your steps to see exactly the kind of shoe you need. You can run in over-sized shoes.... but it ain't helping nothing.

I would pick a gun, and shoot it as much as you possibly can. In a year or two when you're cruising through the classes, you can start to think about the subtle nuances of gun choices and you'll have a MUCH greater base of information to draw upon. Not only will you know more about shooting in general, but you'll know a lot more about your own preferences.

Like everybody else has said - pick on and practice, practice, practice. You may not understand which gun is really best for you until you have enough time behind the sights to know exactly WHY it's best for you.

Enjoy the shooting around OK! Keep those guys in shape for me, especially my Dad.

[Matt Griffin]

Doesn't really matter how you compensate as long as you do it the same every time.

Look, you . . .

[Jake Di Vita]

Sorry...think I'm half pit bull.