My experience with eating Paleo/Primal so far

[Leozinho]

For what it's worth, since I know it's been discussed here:

After initially scoffing at it as fad, I started eating paleo (or primal) about six weeks ago after reading anecdotal success stories mostly from the Performance Menu/Catalyst Athletics crowd.

I can't give any results from benchmark workouts, as I'm lifting heavy now and not into long met-cons anymore. But I have gotten leaner (borderline ripped) than I've ever been in my life, with a clear six-pack. And my adult acne has cleared up (which may have been caused by glutens.)

So, years of endurance work (44 mile ultras, iron-distance triathlon, Cat 4 cyclist, mountain climbing, military training) and months of CF/Military Athlete workouts, and I never had more that a faint 4 pack. Now I've virtually stopped cardio (except for BJJ when I can make it to class) and my abs are defined. This is at age 37, and I haven't even gotten my diet dialed in yet.

I'd say I'm not much than 80 percent compliant. It was easy to cut out the potatoes, pasta and rice. I've done a fair job of cutting out sugar. I do miss bread, but partly for the convenience factor of grabbing a sandwich at Panera for lunch. I'm developing an appreciation for vegetables that normally I wouldn't have eaten before, like broccoli. I know I need to eat more veggies. I have had some cheat meals with bread and ice cream.

Also, since I started this as part of a mass gain/get stronger cycle, I'm eating everything 'primal' I can get my hands on (including force feeding five eggs and some sausage for breakfast) and supplementing with whey protein shakes. I haven't been hungry once and I've gotten leaner literally unintentionally.

Take it for what it's worth. It's only been approximately six weeks. I was fit before I changed my diet, just not 'ripped.' My change in eating habits coincides with a change in how I train. I haven't had any blood work done.

I just recently discovered Mark Sisson's blog. Of all the paleo/primal resources on the 'net, I think I like it best. He's like me, a former endurance/carb junkie (though I was never anywhere near his level as an athlete), so I can relate to him. http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-to-the-primal-eating-plan/

Edited March 16, 2010 by Leozinho

[Jake Di Vita]

Nicely done brother.

FWIW, acne is absolutely an auto-immune issue. I've also read that all you need is one exposure to gluten a month to keep your gut under constant low level inflammation. Also note that to get leaner, cutting out the whey protein shakes will probably give you immediate benefit (being that whey is dairy and liquid food is inherently more insulin spiking than solid food). Especially since you are strength training, carbs are of little important to you. Lots of protein and fats.

How was the first month for you?

I'm a big Robb Wolf fan myself.

[Leozinho]

Nicely done brother.

FWIW, acne is absolutely an auto-immune issue. I've also read that all you need is one exposure to gluten a month to keep your gut under constant low level inflammation. Also note that to get leaner, cutting out the whey protein shakes will probably give you immediate benefit (being that whey is dairy and liquid food is inherently more insulin spiking than solid food). Especially since you are strength training, carbs are of little important to you. Lots of protein and fats.

How was the first month for you?

I'm a big Robb Wolf fan myself.

I didn't have the withdrawals, experience low energy or anything negative that some people do. Perhaps it's because I didn't start cold turkey/super strict. I kind of dabbled with cutting out grains first, before realizing that it is a sustainable way to eat. (I was initially skeptical that I'd have the willpower to not eat bread.) I'm not super strict even now, which has me excited. I've already seen positive results and I still have a lot of room to improve my nutrition.

My palate does seem to be changing, as others report it did for them. I don't know if it's psychological, but I now enjoy vegetables, such as broccoli, that I never liked eating before.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Leozinho

[dangucci]

I have also started to try and eat primal. I am not super strict and mostly I have just given up the breads, pasta etc. I think the biggest change I've noticed is I have a lot more even of energy levels during the day. I used to always have my afternoon crash but I feel pretty good all day now.

[Jake Di Vita]

My Dad has been eating Paleo and lifting heavy 3 days / week for 2 months now. At 55 years old and 5'11, he's gone from 215 to 187 with higher strength and energy levels. As of now he is approaching a 2x BW deadlift (I think he has it already on the right day). Sleep Apnea literally disappeared after the first 2 weeks. He'd likely be even further along had he been eating more meat and fat for this long.

Amazing how well this stuff works if you have the discipline to do it right.

[dbxdm9]

I started the Paleo diet about a month ago. I have lost, and kept off, 9 pounds and have much higher energy levels. No ups/downs after meals, no sugar highs/lows as I cut out all bread products. And, i can eat as much as I want, whenever I want. I plan to stay on it indefinitely.

[XRe]

Ditto all the above... I've found I need a surprising amount of fat to keep energy levels up, though (well, surprising to me...), but once I made it though the adaptation, it's been bad ass. Seeing serious WOD improvements, now... I've got 10 of Dr. Harris' 12 steps going (minus going grass fed, and I eat a lot of chicken). The PaNu blog is a good spot, too...

I have had some rather sophisticated blood work done. I have some issues going on that I'm working on figuring out, so I don't want to get too specific at the moment - but I definitely fit into the "seem to have high LDL" category, but when you look at the particle size distribution, they're almost entirely very large, "puffy" LDLs (ie, the ones that are believed to be non atherosclerotic...). This is an expected side effect of a higher fat diet. My trigs are nice and low. My HDL could come up, though... Working on that.

I'm definitely leaning out. I'm at about 11% body fat. I'm eating unweighed/unmeasured - I'm eating a lot more than when I was Zoning, and my recovery from workouts is greatly enhanced by the extra protein. I definitely enjoy my veg! Branching out into unexplored realms right now...

Also, I'm not eating a lof the "Paleo XXXX" foods that people make out of nut flours or whatever - tried a couple, like some almond flour based pancakes, and they weren't bad, but honestly, they're too much work... Next step for me is a dehydrator to make jerky!

[entropic]

Read this and thought I'd share my experience with the paleo diet....

I hate to think of myself as a dieter, but with my family's history of disease certainly caused by poor diet, I like to think of it as a lifestyle change instead of some fad diet.

A little background:

-24 years old, 6'1", 200lbs

-Grew up lifting weights to gain mass (from 16 to 22 years old)

-Two years ago, after a fitness epiphany, I switched to doing crossfit type workouts to try to gain functional fitness (one thing I can say for certain is that working out to gain all-around fitness is much more physically and mentally demanding than doing low-intensity, marathon sessions in the gym trying to get big)

I've tried the paleo diet for the last five months or so and have had little success with getting on it. I'm also only about 80% compliant to it when I try to implement it. Cutting out sugars, fried foods/bad oils, processed foods, milk, legumes, etc, is no problem. The real problem comes from my need for carbs. Namely, bread or pasta. When I'm eating paleo and working out every day, I find that I can't go to sleep at night without having an english muffin (or 3). I'll actually lay in bed for an hour or so and end up going to the kitchen at midnight scrounging for whatever sort of grain based food I have left in the house....sometimes just dry oats. In an attempt to stop this I've started eating my dose of daily grain-based food after working out since I've read that an insulin spike after exercise is good for recovery. It works for the most part...I'm not starving at night. As far as the diet's effect on my level of fitness: it's hard to tell since it is easy for me to gain fitness and cut fat without any attention to diet... just an hour a day of crossfit-type workouts (ie complex, varied, high-intensity).

Its hard for me to say that I just don't have the will power to get myself used to the diet. So maybe I'm just not getting enough calories and need to throw in another meal of lean meat, vegies, and nuts between dinner and sleep. But this is not what I'm craving...I guess there is a reason that I've heard some crossfiters call cutting out grains "getting of the crack"...it is tough.

I can say that I feel fantastic even when I'm only eating paleo 80%.

Anyways, that's my experience with it. Thanks for listening and for any feedback from some of the practical shooter/nutrition experts,

Dave

Edited June 15, 2010 by entropic

[XRe]

Dave - you are an addict. Admit it...

The crack is not just grain stuff, but sugar, as well. Trying switching to fruit or something, so you can at least get off the gluten. Also, eat more protein and fat - eat to satiety, not just a small amount. And, finally, get ahold of some Natural Calm and take that per the instructions on the package a little while before bed time.

An hour a day of CrossFit style metcons is a lot of load... You can try eating things like yams or sweet potatoes to replete the glycogen in your muscles post-workout, and that'll help with those carb urges, too...

You're going to have to put up with a month or so of adaptation to the style of eating - and it seems to work best if you just rip off the band-aid, and do it, rather than trying to go 80% - that 20% is maintaining your sugar addiction, and those urges will not ease up until you cut it out entirely...

[entropic]

Dave - you are an addict. Admit it...

The crack is not just grain stuff, but sugar, as well. Trying switching to fruit or something, so you can at least get off the gluten. Also, eat more protein and fat - eat to satiety, not just a small amount. And, finally, get ahold of some Natural Calm and take that per the instructions on the package a little while before bed time.

An hour a day of CrossFit style metcons is a lot of load... You can try eating things like yams or sweet potatoes to replete the glycogen in your muscles post-workout, and that'll help with those carb urges, too...

You're going to have to put up with a month or so of adaptation to the style of eating - and it seems to work best if you just rip off the band-aid, and do it, rather than trying to go 80% - that 20% is maintaining your sugar addiction, and those urges will not ease up until you cut it out entirely...

You're absolutely right, I am a addict . I have this weird fear (probably from my adolescent years spent trying to get big) that if I don't eat when I'm hungry, I'll be wasting my time in the gym. People who are on the paleo diet say they are never unsatisfied (after a few weeks), so maybe I just need to bite the bullet and see what happens after I implement it. I'll time a few WODs and take note of a few PRs and see if anything is adversely affected. I've heard it is impossible to lose body fat and gain strength simultaneously, but if crossfit has taught me anything, it's that strength isn't fitness. So maybe I can just aim to increase body-weight exercise reps while implementing the diet rather then trying to keep my powerlift numbers. I'm only 10% BF, and I like a challenge, so maybe it's not as big of a deal as I make it out to be. Thanks for the tips, I'll give the natural calm a look.

[Jake Di Vita]

I wrote a big long post then re-read XRe's and it was almost verbatim.

Rip and band aid off and tough it out. You won't regret it.

[XRe]

I have this weird fear (probably from my adolescent years spent trying to get big) that if I don't eat when I'm hungry, I'll be wasting my time in the gym. People who are on the paleo diet say they are never unsatisfied (after a few weeks), so maybe I just need to bite the bullet and see what happens after I implement it.

That's really it, man... I have times where I almost only eat two meals a day, because I'm simply not hungry. And, if you're hungry - eat. Just eat good stuff when you do it. I know a bunch of big dudes who are eating Paleo, man. Seriously, you can get big as hell with it, if you want (although it might take longer to get big than if you add in dairy, or something... again, Jake can give you some thoughts there, if he's inclined ).

Here's the thing... (this is going from memory, so apologies if I have this slightly off... the gist is right, though). Your body uses a hormone called leptin to regulate short term appetite - it's basically the thing that tells your brain that you're full while you're eating. Your satiety switch, if you will. Dietary carbohydrate inhibits the receptors in the hypothalmus that sense leptin in the blood, whereas protein and (to a slightly lesser degree) fat in the diet stimulate leptin production to some extent. So, you have a situation where when you eat a lot of carbs in the diet, it takes more input to feel "full", and if you're not taking in enough protein and/or fat, you'll feel hungry again rather quickly. On the other hand, eat a low carb diet (which necessarily has to be high in fat to have enough calories to do anything useful), and you'll feel full more quickly, and you'll stay that way longer.

The adaptation period comes in as your body has to switch around a bit hormonally to get situated to burn primarily fatty acids instead of primarily glucose (this is driven by blood glucose levels, but apparently is not an immediate thing...).

I'll time a few WODs and take note of a few PRs and see if anything is adversely affected. I've heard it is impossible to lose body fat and gain strength simultaneously, but if crossfit has taught me anything, it's that strength isn't fitness. So maybe I can just aim to increase body-weight exercise reps while implementing the diet rather then trying to keep my powerlift numbers. I'm only 10% BF, and I like a challenge, so maybe it's not as big of a deal as I make it out to be. Thanks for the tips, I'll give the natural calm a look.

I'm losing fat and gaining strength, even with other (minor) health issues going on that are retarding that progress. It depends on where you're at in your development curve, of course. And, yeah, if you're trying to do a huge mass gain, you're going to have to eat more, and probably higher caloric density foods, and you will probably store a decent amount of those calories, as well... but leaning out again after the strength cycle is not a hard thing to do and still maintain the new strength levels...

Don't confuse Paleo style eating with a calorie restricted diet.... While it's true that most people eating Paleo are, in fact, eating relatively low calorie (because we're not getting the huge load of refined carbs), you can eat Paleo and still pack in a ton of calories. This is a style of eating, not a traditional "diet" (which is "die" with a "t", right? ). Robb Wolf has several example meals posted that are over 1000 calories each, and are still Paleo... they're just calorically dense (usually using things like coconut milk). There are also psuedo-Paleo modifications that several folks have looked at that include adding in dairy for a mass gain cycle - I would only go there if you're trying to do mass gain, because you add in some additional inflammatory response with the dairy.

Personally, I'm still leaning out, and I'm not looking to get big - I'm looking to improve my power to weight ratio, which necessarily requires one to be strong, but as light as possible. For a 5'9" guy who has a largish frame, it's hard to get "small" without looking like I've been in a concentration camp or something. I'm approaching 10% BF myself, with a goal of having the abs "up" before I start thinking about anything else from a fitness perspective

[Flexmoney]

Read this and thought I'd share my experience with the paleo diet....

I hate to think of myself as a dieter, but with my family's history of disease certainly caused by poor diet, I like to think of it as a lifestyle change instead of some fad diet.

A little background:

-24 years old, 6'1", 200lbs

-Grew up lifting weights to gain mass (from 16 to 22 years old)

-Two years ago, after a fitness epiphany, I switched to doing crossfit type workouts to try to gain functional fitness (one thing I can say for certain is that working out to gain all-around fitness is much more physically and mentally demanding than doing low-intensity, marathon sessions in the gym trying to get big)

I've tried the paleo diet for the last five months or so and have had little success with getting on it. I'm also only about 80% compliant to it when I try to implement it. Cutting out sugars, fried foods/bad oils, processed foods, milk, legumes, etc, is no problem. The real problem comes from my need for carbs. Namely, bread or pasta. When I'm eating paleo and working out every day, I find that I can't go to sleep at night without having an english muffin (or 3). I'll actually lay in bed for an hour or so and end up going to the kitchen at midnight scrounging for whatever sort of grain based food I have left in the house....sometimes just dry oats. In an attempt to stop this I've started eating my dose of daily grain-based food after working out since I've read that an insulin spike after exercise is good for recovery. It works for the most part...I'm not starving at night. As far as the diet's effect on my level of fitness: it's hard to tell since it is easy for me to gain fitness and cut fat without any attention to diet... just an hour a day of crossfit-type workouts (ie complex, varied, high-intensity).

Its hard for me to say that I just don't have the will power to get myself used to the diet. So maybe I'm just not getting enough calories and need to throw in another meal of lean meat, vegies, and nuts between dinner and sleep. But this is not what I'm craving...I guess there is a reason that I've heard some crossfiters call cutting out grains "getting of the crack"...it is tough.

I can say that I feel fantastic even when I'm only eating paleo 80%.

Anyways, that's my experience with it. Thanks for listening and for any feedback from some of the practical shooter/nutrition experts,

Dave

Reading your post, it was screaming to me that you need more fuel. Your body is hungry, and it craves it's old favorite...one it knows from the past.

I don't know ANY particulars on this specific plan, but it would seem logical to plow through with extra calories...getting your body so full that it doesn't want any more fuel... Which would negate any cravings. Once you are well over the hurdle, you could then start to dial it back.

[Flexmoney]

Reading on...Dave already said the same thing....

- eat to satiety, not just a small amount.

[Jake Di Vita]

I agree with what has been said. Let me put it like this, I know 110 pound girls who eat 6 eggs and half a pound of bacon for breakfast every morning. If her body need that much fuel, how much do you think a grown 200 pound man needs?

Paleo plus dairy is fantastic for mass gain. The bad thing about dairy is it is inherently very insulin spiking, so because of that you can plan on gaining some fat with this method. However it has been my experience that muscle is a lot harder to gain than fat is to lose (not to mention that having more muscle will help you lose more fat). I guess the first step is determining exactly what your goals are and knowing where your current abilities stand. I'm personally more concerned with performance than appearance, so I don't care if my abzz are showing or not.

In my case, I was doing a lot of dairy (gallon of whole milk per day) and not very paleo outside of that (for a limited time). But in 3 months I gained 35 pounds to my weight and about 130 pounds to my squat. It's amazing how quickly the body gets stronger when you provide adequate stress, fuel, and recovery.

[XRe]

Let me put it like this, I know 110 pound girls who eat 6 eggs and half a pound of bacon for breakfast every morning.

I'm doing good to get in 3 eggs and 1/3 pound of sausage before my switch shuts off...

I'm personally more concerned with performance than appearance, so I don't care if my abzz are showing or not.

You can say it... I'm vain...

[Supermoto]

I have been thinking about starting this diet. I need to change the way I eat, but that is going to require a complete lifestyle change. I don't cook at all. I haven't turned on my stove in 5 months. But any diet that has large amounts of bacon in it, is something I can do.

Are there any books that have daily meals to eat? I need a plan to stick to, otherwise I'll just give up. Same deal happened at the gym, had a good 3 month plan, followed it religiously, at the end, I lasted 2 more weeks and then stopped going

thanks for any help

[entropic]

I agree with what has been said. Let me put it like this, I know 110 pound girls who eat 6 eggs and half a pound of bacon for breakfast every morning. If her body need that much fuel, how much do you think a grown 200 pound man needs?

Sounds like my breakfast some days only I'll avoid the salted meat and replace it with chicken of steak since I'm hypertensive when eating lots of sodium. My roommates in college thought I was crazy when I'd eat 4 eggs, a chicken breast, a bowl of oatmeal, and two glasses of milk for breakfast.

Paleo plus dairy is fantastic for mass gain. The bad thing about dairy is it is inherently very insulin spiking, so because of that you can plan on gaining some fat with this method. However it has been my experience that muscle is a lot harder to gain than fat is to lose (not to mention that having more muscle will help you lose more fat). I guess the first step is determining exactly what your goals are and knowing where your current abilities stand. I'm personally more concerned with performance than appearance, so I don't care if my abzz are showing or not.

The insulin spiking nature of dairy and it's possible effects on autoimmune reactions is why I gave up milk completely a few months ago. I don't miss it at all besides the fact that it was easy, cheap nutrition.

Mass gain really isn't a goal of mine anymore. I'm looking for functional strength and all around fitness. My legs and back still have a little catching up to do, but I'm feeling much more well rounded since I gave up anything resembling bodybuilding-type workouts a couple years ago. Getting my butt kicked sparring with middle age men with phenomenal conditioning really changed my outlook on fitness in general. I'm not concerned with appearances either. I used to be, and I think it just led to lots of strength asymmetries. Looking at my old workouts and my current ones, it really was easy to get a 400lb bench press compared to my goals now (being able to do lots of burpees, thrusters, pull ups etc)

[entropic]

I have been thinking about starting this diet. I need to change the way I eat, but that is going to require a complete lifestyle change. I don't cook at all. I haven't turned on my stove in 5 months. But any diet that has large amounts of bacon in it, is something I can do.

Are there any books that have daily meals to eat? I need a plan to stick to, otherwise I'll just give up. Same deal happened at the gym, had a good 3 month plan, followed it religiously, at the end, I lasted 2 more weeks and then stopped going

thanks for any help

Google "paleo diet" and you'll find lots of good resources. I'm sure Jake or Dave can recommend specific sites and books that are the best. It is a tough, seemingly restrictive way of eating. You will have to learn to like cooking though. I hate cooking, so I do it in quantity and only have to do it for breakfast everyday and a few times a week for other meals since I have lots of leftovers.

As far a fitness solution, all I can say is "Crossfit.com". Look through the workout of the day on the homepage and look through the bank of workout demos and explanations for anything new to you if you are interested. Everything is done with intensity as the primary goal (after of course not getting hurt). Give it a look if you haven't already discovered it.

Adopting both of these, you'll be able to save time in the gym since your workouts will have so much intensity and put that time into cooking and focus on diet.

Also, I've found crossfit easier to stick to because there is an active network/forum of people to keep you going with it... just open up the homepage everyday and suddenly the motivation to workout appears. That has been my experience anyways.

Edited June 15, 2010 by entropic

[Jake Di Vita]

Mass gain really isn't a goal of mine anymore. I'm looking for functional strength and all around fitness. My legs and back still have a little catching up to do, but I'm feeling much more well rounded since I gave up anything resembling bodybuilding-type workouts a couple years ago. Getting my butt kicked sparring with middle age men with phenomenal conditioning really changed my outlook on fitness in general. I'm not concerned with appearances either. I used to be, and I think it just led to lots of strength asymmetries. Looking at my old workouts and my current ones, it really was easy to get a 400lb bench press compared to my goals now (being able to do lots of burpees, thrusters, pull ups etc)

Mass gain isn't really a goal of mine either. My goal is to get stronger, and it is a hell of a lot easier to do that while growing.

A 400 pound bench is cool...what are your squat and deadlift numbers? I made the mistake of training endurance before strength...it didn't work out too well. I was 5'7, 155 pounds and had reasonable strength numbers for my size, then got my ass handed to me at a crossfit competition because I was going against people who had my level of conditioning or better and outweighed me by 50 pounds. Out of the 10 general physical skills you always hear about, I would contend that strength has a greater effect on all of them than any of the others do.

IMO, if you want to be a great crossfitter, you need at least a 450 pound squat and over 500 deadlift.

[XRe]

IMO, if you want to be a great crossfitter, you need at least a 450 pound squat and over 500 deadlift.

And possibly more....

I haven't tried these guys, yet, but if you want a ready to go meal plan that's Paleo compliant (including a shopping list, etc), these guys are compelling: http://www.paleoplan.com/

I don't mind cooking - in fact, I enjoy it when I don't have to do it... But, yeah, it's a lot easier to be very clean in the eating department if you're cooking it... You can eat Paleo-ish in restaurants, but you can't easily control the amount of salt they're throwing on the food, and they're likely using some kind of PUFA oil (polyunsaturated fat... ie, most vegetable oils) to cook with, so it's definitely not optimal... Plus, it's a lot more expensive to eat out that way...

You can buy bacon that's uncured, and doesn't have all the crap in it Bacon is meat candy, baby...

Go a step at a time - but your best bet long term is to eventually get to where you're buying locally grown organic produce, and locally grown, naturally fed and raised meats (ie, pastured pork and chicken, grass fed beef, etc). That's a big step to take right away, though - fixing the macronutrient intake (ie, what foods) goes a long way... Then worry about the absolute quality of those foods (the organic/natural food step)...

[entropic]

A 400 pound bench is cool...what are your squat and deadlift numbers?

I'm not really sure. I haven't sat at a bench in about 2 years...so I probably couldn't top 315 right now. I mentioned taking note of some PRs just for the sake of seeing which way my strength goes after starting to eat differently. I never max out anymore, although it probably would makes sense to do so a couple times a week. A 500 deadlift shouldn't be a problem with a little training. A 450 squat sounds difficult for me depending on how far down you consider a full squat.

You can buy bacon that's uncured, and doesn't have all the crap in it Posted Image Bacon is meat candy, baby...

Go a step at a time - but your best bet long term is to eventually get to where you're buying locally grown organic produce, and locally grown, naturally fed and raised meats (ie, pastured pork and chicken, grass fed beef, etc). That's a big step to take right away, though - fixing the macronutrient intake (ie, what foods) goes a long way... Then worry about the absolute quality of those foods (the organic/natural food step)...

Where do you find Pasture/grass fed eggs, pork, chicken, beef etc? I can't reasonably drive out to the country to find local eggs and chicken (surrounded by suburbia).

[markcic]

Where do you find Pasture/grass fed eggs, pork, chicken, beef etc? I can't reasonably drive out to the country to find local eggs and chicken (surrounded by suburbia).

Wholefoods, Wild oats, and Sprouts usually have a good selection depending on where you live.

[Supermoto]

Thanks for the info, I'll have to give this a try when I move and can no longer walk to my favorite sub shop.

[Sandro]

I am on paleo for athletes; here

Lost 7lb of fat and gained 5lb of muscle, my total wieght is 153lb now. That is of course with 60 days of CrossFit 4 times a week. I feel great and I am living a better life becuase of it.

Not major issues so far, the diet has really helped me reach my goals.

DVC,

Sandro

Edited June 15, 2010 by Sandro