Front sight aquisition

[hf219]

I tried the search function couldnt find something close to the question at hand.

On the draw stroke, at what point are you aquiring the front sight.

I ask this as I think a light bulb exploded over my head this past weekend. I haven't practiced for quite some time. Once again, as I was relearning how to draw, I noticed my first shot and how I was placing the shot. I would execute the first shot from the holster as my arms reached their full extension. Essentially I was using a natural point of aim and full extension as a trigger for my first shot, with sight picture being a rather small part of the equation. The drill was on a 6" plate at twenty yards, surrender draw. My draw times were around 1.3/1.4 on average with hits. If I tried to go faster, crash and burn, gauranteed miss. I was trying to go faster, move out of my comfortable zone and decrease my times.

HERES WHERE THE LIGHT EXPLODED OVER MY HEAD. I was shooting with a friend and he asked me when I picked up my front sight. He said it looked as if I was at full extension and THEN started to settle down to aquire what I needed to place the shot on the target. When I pushed to go faster, I essentially was breaking the shot at full extension and a miss would occur. When he made the comment I put in bold letters, it was like a door was unlocked. I was using a transition type of sight focus. He was right, that is exactly what I was doing. I thought, that I feel confident enough about my NPOA that I could pull my eyes off the target and to my sights earlier. The time Im mentioning may not be exact, I roughly use it as reference to see how far out I need to start looking at my front sight. When I aquired the front sight satisfactorily to get the hit while at full extension, I was say at the 1.3 mark. When I broke the shot with my arms fully extended with very little front site visual patience and a miss, close to a 1.2 time. These are rough averages.

So, with this in mind, I figured it would take me a 10th of a second roughly to aquire the front site and get an acceptable sight picture to get a hit on this drill.

SO, I started to pull my sight off of the target and aquire the front sight roughly a 10th of a second or slightly sooner out from the full extension. Doing this I would have the sight setteled down and tracking smoothly into the target, which trustingly ended at full extension. I ended up breaking the shot at full extension with the sights locked in. I immediatly brought my draw time down to 1.2 consistently. Pushing out of the NEW comfort zone, id be in the 1.1 or under area with a hot and cold hit ratio. Sometimes 9 out of 10 sometimes 4 out of 10. When I settled down and went for solid hits, I still maintained 1.2 with what seemed little effort. I throw this conversation out there, to see if im on track or what. I had some new insight with transitions last year which has helped me tremendously. I thinking, the way I used to follow my sights into a target on a transition is what im doing now with my draw stroke. I guess my draw stroke was essentially comprised of point shooting, which obviously doesnt work on a 20 yard 6" target. The added time to aquire the sights AFTER full extension killed me on my draw times. One other thing I noticed that as I tried to turn up the speed, it became a whole new thing to learn as in how much earlier I had to aquire the sights. A tenth of a second put my eyes just before my wrists in catching the sights. It ended up being a good focal point to aquire them. It got a little harder with the minut speed increase as to how much further away I needed to look. I trust that my NPOA will put my gun and sights within a very fine area of the target in question. Its the fine tuning of sight alignment and the time it takes me as to why Im pulling my eyes off of the target and onto the sights. I cant remember wether this concept has been thrown out there before. But im sure someone here will put me on the right track. Thanks H!

[Flexmoney]

Harry,

It sounds like you had a bit of a tuning fork "twang" at the end of your extension.

Getting your vision in to drive the process (< who'da thunk it ) allowed you to be aware of that.

Some relate the end of the draw extension to reaching out to ring a door bell. I like to relate it to putting on the brakes to stop a car. If you slam on the brakes, the car shudders a lot as it comes to a stop. If you ease off the brakes at the end, then the car can come to a smooth stop. (Same thing ought to apply to transitions...snapping too hard and then slamming on the brakes can give that shudder/twang.)

You cranked up your vision, and became more aware.

Good stuff!

[Flexmoney]

BTW, I think you are dead on with regards to having a good index and nature point of aim (NPA) to get the gun where it needs to go...and not, then, require lots of extra input and steering (which takes time).

Let me run this at you...

Once you had this realization...and you took a solid tick off the clock...when you went to push the envelope again, how did you do so? Where you just pushing on the gas a bit more?

If so, ask yourself... What got you the last increase and break-through? The vision, right?

So, maybe the question needs to be, how can you get more visual input? (I'll leave you with that, for now.)

[BSeevers]

Simple answer to at what point do you acquire the sight?

As soon as I need to. That "awakening" usually starts out with as soon as possible, which is where you are at.

[hf219]

Kyle, duly noted on both posts. Im glad you asked, when I pushed harder, I actually looked further away from my final extension position. If I started out with picking up the sights just before my wrist, I would slowly move further away from the final extended position. I use this reference point of my wrist as to where it would be when fully extended. I just kinda imagined where my arms would be when done pushing out the gun. Then based from that memory when I needed to start to pick up the sights. I would focus on the target specific spot, then move my eyes to the sights to start the settling down process. I could actually see the front sight slide into the rear sight. Looking at the sight aquisition in this way allowed me to push hard and slow it down just enough to not get that hitting the brakes too hard wobble. I use it in this manner, well because I just have never really been able to find a natural way to slow down the last part of the draw stroke. More importantly Ive known to slow down the last portion of the draw stroke and I have. The difference is that when the gun is at full extension, im not just at that point starting to read the sights. Many draw strokes on Sunday (in the beginning) were full extension with the front sight moving around in the rear sight notch. This would be okay on a close paper target to get a hit somewhere on paper at say 10 yards. A 6" piece of steel at 20 yards required a little more seeing of the sights, less wobble, more specific point of aim (i dont mean aiming point). I was able to settle the front sight down by aquiring the front sight well before full extension. Once I captured it with my eyes, I was then able to push the front sight forward and into the rear notch, with zero mindset or thought as to how fast I was doing this. I felt that this gave me the greatest speed, without focusing on speed, I could get in the last part of the draw stroke. I have always heard someone to seeing more. I just never understood the definition of seeing more until Sunday. For me anyway it was seeing the sights at an earlier time frame, so that when the gun was in its final resting position no time was wasted in being able to break the shot.

[hf219]

One other thing, this all that ive said may seem elementary. Ive known this process for transition work and have worked on being better at that. I never applied it to the draw stroke, for years I relied on NPOA, basically point shooting on my draw stroke, without seeing what it is Ive really needed to see. That may have gotten me by, which I still cant figure out how, for as long as Ive been shooting. I actually take pride in my ability to shoot very well at 25 to 50 yards. I understand what it takes to place those type of shots. But for this simple accuracy drilled coupled with the draw stroke it was like getting hit in the head with a 2X4. I think maybe Ineed to shoot less. Everytime I get back into shooting I learn in another way what the hell Im doing wrong. Im still laughing at how retarded Ive been. Its like ive been blacked out with my shooting education. Oh yeah thats right the definition of insanity= doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result everytime! LOL! H!

[Flexmoney]

Time off can take away our...cockiness. (< I was looking for a good word there.)

Maybe it's better to say that it can make us not take things for granted. Then, we have to be more aware of...and execute...the fundamentals.

The more aware we can be, the more we can notice the truth of things.

Brian talks about not trying to repeat a good performance (we often see somebody have a really good outing, only to follow it up with a crappy performance next time out)...rather he says to copy the feeling or state of mind that you had during the good performance. I think that works if/when you aren't so much after the outcome, but more open and aware of what is going on with the execution. (then, the outcome can take care of itself)

Thanks for sharing.

[Flexmoney]

If so, ask yourself... What got you the last increase and break-through? The vision, right?

So, maybe the question needs to be, how can you get more visual input? (I'll leave you with that, for now.)

Let me ask this in a different way...

When is your gun coming into your visual cone? Or, when is it bisecting your direct line of vision from the target to your eye?

What path is your gun taking from holster to extension? Are you bringing the gun up to a high ready type of area (vertical travel leg), then pressing it out along the vision (horizontal travel leg)? Or, does the gun travel in just a diagonal leg from the holster to the extended position? (Does that question make sense?)

[Dan Burwell]

Im still laughing at how retarded Ive been.

That makes two of us.

good post Frank, this is something I know I need to improve at. I just kind of let the sights appear, never really hunt them down on my draw. I'll have to give this a go this weekend.

[hf219]

If so, ask yourself... What got you the last increase and break-through? The vision, right?

So, maybe the question needs to be, how can you get more visual input? (I'll leave you with that, for now.)

Let me ask this in a different way...

When is your gun coming into your visual cone? Or, when is it bisecting your direct line of vision from the target to your eye?

What path is your gun taking from holster to extension? Are you bringing the gun up to a high ready type of area (vertical travel leg), then pressing it out along the vision (horizontal travel leg)? Or, does the gun travel in just a diagonal leg from the holster to the extended position? (Does that question make sense?)

The question does make sense. I dont really want to answer that though!LOL! NO it certainly doesnt come straight up and pressed out. It comes out on a diagonal, although it is not right from the holster to full extended position. I would say that, I think anyway, I pull the gun straight up from the holster, then push through on a diagonal route. I really dont want to say that my draw is a scoop type, although, if its true then. Hello, my name is Harry and I scoop when I draw! LMAO! Ill have to do some video and see if im still retarded or more so then I thought. Sometimes I cant handle the truth. Another funnyism, H!

Edited March 11, 2010 by hf219

[hf219]

As far as when do I see the gun, well, I see the front sight clearly and as a matter of fact, thinking about it, the rear sight appears to be lower then the front sight. The front sight doesnt push over the top of the target. I know where your going with this, at least I think. The only hesitation with admitting or saying for sure that Im scooping on the draw, is that my draw is no different then when I draw from my duty holster. So I know that my muzzle is coming at least waist high before I start to push out. Maybe Im not coming up high enough. Ive seen people draw their gun and pull it almost shoulder high then press out. I wasnt overly excited about that type of presentation, seemed mechanical not smooth. Ill have to do some video and see what it is im doing. I will say it must be in the right direction, considering the immediate improvement in my accuracy and time. H!

[benos]

When drawing, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus the instant the gun stopped moving forward.

For transitions, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus by the time the gun was stopped on the target.

be

[hf219]

When drawing, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus the instant the gun stopped moving forward.

For transitions, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus by the time the gun was stopped on the target.

be

You know Brian, I was just thinking that yesterday after posting. This conversation has lit up another lightbulb. I haven't been moving my eyes nearly as much as they should be! Alot of work ahead for me and I guess Advil.H!

[benos]

When drawing, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus the instant the gun stopped moving forward.

For transitions, I'd want the front sight to be in razor sharp focus by the time the gun was stopped on the target.

be

You know Brian, I was just thinking that yesterday after posting. This conversation has lit up another lightbulb. I haven't been moving my eyes nearly as much as they should be!

Especially with iron sights - that's what it comes down to - keep your eyes moving!

be

[hf219]

One other thing, after reading books, reading posts on this forum, Ive never really had it broken down to what has essentially been said on this topic right now. What is the saying if I only knew then what I know now, where would I be. Thanks H!

[Flexmoney]

There has been tons of it posted over the years. Many skip right over this "shooting" section on their way to the "softest load" and "best fiber optic" topics.

Sometimes, you have to be ready...and looking.

[hf219]

Kyle, I guess what I mean is that there has been plenty of talk about eye speed, seeing, ect. Not being disrespectful by saying this, words like these being used and implied over the many posts I've read never really spelled it out like this thread. It could be that I haven't been able to decipher these implied phrases. I think that alot of posts are broken down to those who know what your asking give you hints and TEACH you to understand what it is your looking for. This is great for THAT person who is following the learning path and conversation. I even think that some people reading this thread may not catch onto what IM actually learning or what your teaching. I have read many, many posts within this forum looking for any kernal of thought that can shed light onto bettering my abilities as a shooter. Until this recent enlightenment, I had no frigin clue, LOL, about how much your eyes are moving. Now with that said, I can tell you when shooting PPC, I would transition my focus from the target to the front sights several times between each shot (at 50 yards). In fact the first time I shot a PPC match I got such a bad headache, I drove a half hour in the wrong direction before I realized I was going the wrong way home. I thought this transition of focus in PPC may have been a little excessive, I dont know, its what worked for me. I thank you, Brian and the many others for your education in my endeavors. H!

[JD45]

If I read this correctly, we are talking about first shot at a 6-inch plate at 20yds. in.........1.2-1.3 seconds? With irons??

I'm a nobody, but I know some really good local shooters that would love to hit those times on demand, in a match. I've seen the timer enough running others in matches, and have seen my times. The first shot times on Roundabout or Showdown are nearly always slower than I expected, even the top local shooters.

Watch the first shot times at monthly club matches, on first shots at 8-10yd. paper. You want see many guys hitting .90 with irons like they do on the internet. I would like to see their times on even a 10" plate at 20yds.

These guys here will teach you how to improve. I just wish I could shoot as fast as you are shooting.

[hf219]

If I read this correctly, we are talking about first shot at a 6-inch plate at 20yds. in.........1.2-1.3 seconds? With irons??

I'm a nobody, but I know some really good local shooters that would love to hit those times on demand, in a match. I've seen the timer enough running others in matches, and have seen my times. The first shot times on Roundabout or Showdown are nearly always slower than I expected, even the top local shooters.

Watch the first shot times at monthly club matches, on first shots at 8-10yd. paper. You want see many guys hitting .90 with irons like they do on the internet. I would like to see their times on even a 10" plate at 20yds.

These guys here will teach you how to improve. I just wish I could shoot as fast as you are shooting.

Thanks, I think? Iron sights, 20yds, 1.2. NOT an internet time. Any time posted is not grabbed out of the middle of a match, unless otherwise noted. I havent shot since essentially the nationals last year. A friend talked me into going to the steel national in FLA. I needed to make up some ammo and chrono it for then. I had some friends out to do some chrono, sighting in, function check, ect. We had some steel, figured it would be good practice. I couldnt even say why I was checking my draw stroke times. AH, well, I guess I dont really practice surrender draws all that much, when I have Ive tried to match a hands at side draw stroke. It just ended up being a drill I worked on for a while. Now I will hopefully have my match ammo made up by next weekend and maybe I can get out to the range and do some video/last minute sighting in and drill work. If, being the qualifying word, I can make it happen to get to the range, it should be another awakening moment in clarity with my shooting. Thanks again, H!

[hf219]

I will also say I certainly didnt start out the day with those times. Started out between 1.3 and 1.4 with consistent hits. UNTIL I had the epiphany, I couldnt break 1.3 without certainly missing. I still cant believe what Ive been doing wrong all of these years. I certainly know my place on the food chain of shooting. The confidence I display is what I know I can replicate on demand in a match setting. Ill know more as to where I am next weekend and what ON DEMAND times are looking like. The one thing Im still going to have to work on, is eye transition, my eyes will be moving more then ever. Im going to need a stock of advils before the weekend,LOL.H!