Reloading For Accuracy Vs Felt Recoil

[SherlockWV]

I am a bit confused about how I should reload for my guns. Well on my way to being in the senior class but just starting in late August of 03, I have been reloading my own ammo. Accuracy has alway been paramount with me but now people tell me that it is not that important in IPSEC or IDPA. This is where my confusion lies. I took particular interest when "be" mentions in his book that many people get "hung up" in one class and are unable to advance because they never really grasped the principle of "group shooting" from a bench and/or freestyle. (paraphrased) Furthermore I belive that he says that learning to shoot accuratly is paramount to achieving a functional freestyle. (again paraphrased)

I have been loading for accuracy. I have loads that I run in my 9mm and in my .45 that are very accurate. Felt recoil, in my opinion is nominal as I am no where near max loads. Now...I can back the loads off and reduce the recoil and still maintain the PF as many of the people I shoot with do, and I am sure that they would be adaquate for short range shots but I fear that the longer shots would suffer. So I guess the bottom line is that I am looking for a consensus for you folks on this site. I would prefer to get more experienced opinions. I may be getting old but not to old to keep learning from people who have more experience than me.

Happy New Year To Everyone and Continued Safe Shooting

[wide45]

You should have the ability to shoot groups, because that requires knowledge of the fundamentals.

You will never shoot groups at an IPSC match.

Everything is a balance.

Is that extra accuracy getting you more points?

Could you be faster with less recoil?

[DogmaDog]

Sherlock,

1. Does the accuracy of your loads suffer if you reduce them to just above power factor floor? (You seem to assume that it does/will, but I don't see any good reason for that assumption)

2. Can you feel any difference between the loads you use now and reduced power factor loads you're considering?

I think when most people talk about IPSC/IDPA not requiring accurate loads, they mean it relative to bullseye shooting, or something similar, where you need a gun that will hold the X ring (about 1 1/2") at 50 yards to compete at a high level.

Reworking your load in IPSC to get a 1/2" tighter group at 25 yards is a lot of experimentation, and probably not worth it for most of us. My load shoots at least as accurately as I can, which might be 3" at 25 yards on a pretty good day, just resting on a table. I'm not about to test 10 different powders to see if there's one that shoots tighter, because it's just too much work and the results probably would be ambiguous anyway...it's just much easier to measure power factor, so we load for that.

So if your loads now are good, shoot 'em! If you like experimenting with different loads, experiment!

DogmaDog

[Flexmoney]

I load for reliability, first and foremost.

Having seen you shoot, I can say that your gun/ammo is more than accurate enough for our games. If you are OK (which you seem to be) with how it feels, then forget about it.

Load up and focus on the shooting.

[Ron Ankeny]

I load for felt recoil and how the sight tracks while staying slightly above major. Of course the gun must be reliable. FWIW, none of the loads that I shoot in matches are the most accurate load out of my pistols, but they are accurate enough so I just shoot and don't give it a thought.

[EricW]

I like'em hot so my sights track better. Low-recoil stuff like foofer loads and funky recoil dohickeys makes the gun feel spongy to me. So..... Everyone's different. Fortunately you have a world of options available to suit your temperament.

More unqualified opinions:

Applying bench-rest practices to handgun cartridges is a total waste of time.

Applying due care to obtain quality and consistency (a la Flex's plan) will always yield better results.

[Joe D]

Sherlock, I am an old converted Bullseye shooter. I came to realize that the targets we IPSC/IDPA guys shoot are huge. A gun that will group under 3" @ 25 yds. is accurate enough. I load to PF and select a powder and bullet combo that is "soft".

BTW Sherlock it does us seniors good to beat the younger guys every once in a while.

[SherlockWV]

Thanks folks. A lot of good advice. I have dropped my loads to just above the required PF and at 20 yds, I was not as consistant. I dropped one load a full gr. and 1/2 and the felt recoil was about the same to me. But...it could have just been one of those days where is was all me. I started thinking about this issue after I had a bad experience a couple of weeks ago at a "metal" shoot. Felt recoil seemed much more severe with cold hands. But as Flex mentioned, he has seen me shoot and perhaps I should just stick with what I have been using for now. (By the way Flex, congrats on the out of State match you went to. DT sent me the results) I have so many "fundamentals" to work on. Thanks again for the input.

Safe and Good Shooting to you all!

[EricW]

Have you ever noticed recoil while actually shooting a stage? I don't even notice the gun going off. Unless you have some type of physiological issue that compels you to go as soft as possible, why not focus on getting the best sight tracking? Getting your front sight to drop into the notch 100% of the time is the foundation to doing well in IPSC.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I load to a 130 power factor for minor and 170 for major. I want every shot fired over the chrono to make power factor not just the average. The load must be 100% reliable in all my guns. If I can keep all my shots off hand toward the center of the head at 25 yards then my load developement is done.

Bill Nesbitt

ps: We're not getting older, we're getting better.

[SherlockWV]

Good thoughts Eric. Honestly, aside from that cold day, I really do not notice felt recoil. I have been trying to focus on the sites rise and return to center alignment but I have to admit that I have a long way to go. Bill, I like the idea of having ALL shots +minor or major plus your position on accuracy at 25 yards. I really like your comment about getting better not older. By the way the one season that I shot in "87" was with a guy who knows you. He is a friend of mine and said to say "HI" if I had the opportunity. So "HI" from Joe S. Email me if you want more detail. I have received so many good thoughts on this issue. From what I have gleaned so far the consensus is to find what you are comfortable with. Although Eric's position is the direction that I have been traveling. But...as previously mentioned, Flex's thoughts apply to me so succinctly that I am not going to change anything at this point. As previously mentioned I have so much work to do on fundamentals that being concerned about PF's is irrelevent. You folks have helped me to realize that. Thanks once again.

[Singlestack]

As previously mentioned I have so much work to do on fundamentals that being concerned about PF's is irrelevent.

Thats not completely true. Worrying about which load feels better as a beginner is unnecessary, but why beat yourself up with a 190pf super accurate load when a 170pf accurate enough load will do the trick?

I recommend for a new IPSC shooter to let the GM's spend the money and time on research and learn from them. If the GM's are all shooting .40 180g FMJs over 5g of VN320 @ 1.90, then shoot the same thing until you feel like that load is holding you back.

The difference in recoil between a .40 and a .45 (out of similar guns) is lost on all but the very experienced.

[Bill Nesbitt]

Sue & I always shot 45's in IPSC before IDPA was started. Power factor for major was 175 then so we loaded to 180 - 185. After we started shooting IDPA we realized we could do away with the elbow pain by shooting a 125+ power factor in SSP. Now we can shoot without pain.

My point is: don't beat yourself and you gun up by shooting heavy loads just because they are more accurate. I can't remember seeing a target past 25 - 35 yards for years. If your gun ammo combination will hit the head every time at 25 yards that is good enough.

Bill Nesbitt

[SherlockWV]

Singlestack, I have stopped using my Glock 21 in .45 and went to my 1911 in 9mm until I get the fundamentals. I am running a 148 gr. bullet at 929 fps so the PF is around 137. I am using Unique. Although dirty, it is pretty "soft". I also run a 125 gr. at 1100 with the same powder. I had bought an 8 lb. keg so I thought that I would just use it up. Bottom line is that although I am getting up in age, I am 6'2", 230 & in pretty good shape as I work out almost every day. These loads are very managable to me. There was just this one Match where it was 26 degrees and as it took a long time to get started I was cold and pretty stiff. I did notice that day that I did not seem to have complete control of the gun. What promted my original post was a number of communications from a guy who has been shooting a couple of years plus his friends and they were trying to develop loads just over the minimum PF in each caliber. The loads that I mentioned are listed as accuracy loads in my lastest edition of Lyman's pistol Load Book. However I totally agree with you about allowing the MAs to do the leg work. This too is why I started the post. I wanted to get more qualified info from people like yourself. Fortunatly, I have a friend that I shoot with who keeps steering me in the right direction as has been shooting for years and came out of the Silhouette game and spends considerble time in load development. However most of his stuff is built around W231 which I also use but mostly in the .45.

Thanks for your input as it really is appreciated!

JC

[Flexmoney]

Sound like you are on the right track.

Good advise here (these guys are great).

If you think about that match in the cold...there might be a good lesson or two you can pull out of there.

One...some type of pre-match warm-up might be helpful. And, I try to keep moving during the stages (pasting, painting, resetting helps keep the blood pumping). I often like to stretch a little right before I shoot, as well.

Two...the cold was a distraction. That just worked out. Usually, the stage designer has to go to great pains to distract you from the shooting. But, if you can realize that all that stuff is just a distraction...then all you have to do is focus on the shooting.

[SherlockWV]

Thanks Flex - One thing that I didn't mention that "cold" day was that I was having continous misfires. DT thought that it was the combination of some factory primed brass that I was using then plus the oil & contraction of the metal gun. It turned out to be the primers as I let my gun sit out in the cold at home then ran some rounds through it. They fired but when picking up the brass I noticed a round mark instead of a clear indentation. Ultimatly it was both the primers and the stock firing pin which was titaninum. DT replaced the firing pin and the stainless Ed Brown pin that he had for my gun wouldn't fit so we ended up with another. The firing pin stop is all piend both top & bottom & again the Ed Brown stop that he had wouldn't fit. So I have to get another.

All of that worked on me. Continous misfires even with DT's Federal Primed loads that I think I just loosened up my grip which caused me to feel more of the "felt recoil". It was a bad day all around.

Re: Stretching and staying loose, I go through a 15 minute stretching routine every AM plus on match days I spend 15 minutes doing floor work to loosen up my complete body but....by the time I drive to Zanesville I am stiff. I again stretch out the legs on location. Re: pasting and helping; on that day we had 11 in our squad and I was one of three of the 11 who went out after every shooter and set up the "metals". Sad. But that is ok. I hadn't thought about all of those factors until looking through all of the good advice given on this thread. I just finished loading up a couple hundred rounds and I did drop off 1/10th gr. Probably won't mean anything but they shot well at my 10 yard spot by my house. Then I knocked off my gun from the bench and bent those stupid adjustables that came with it. Got them straighted out and it seems ok but I am trying to find a Heinie rear and an optical front. DT is looking in to it for me. I haven't had any luck with Heinie for this 1911. Sure wish I didn't have that slide cutting problem from my Glocks. Anyway I didn't mean to go on a rant. I am staying with my current loads recommended by DT and continuing to shoot. Again I appriciate all of the feed back about the PF issue. I was starting to get confused. But as you have said, I do not seem to have any problems handling these loads so I will keep working on fundamentals. Heading for Aladonia tomorrow to practice on the crows and plates.

[DogmaDog]

Sherlock,

as with all things, there's a balance to be struck. My recent experience working up some foo-foo loads for steel shooting may illustrate:

I often shoot a friday night man-on-man plate rack match, and had been doing so with my 200gr 170 PF load in .45. I did well, was competitive in my class, and won, on occasion. My best time to draw and hit 5 plates at 25 feet was 3.1x sec.

Then I decided to make a wimp load to try and get faster. I loaded some 155gr bullets to about 125 PF. I had to install a 10 lb variable recoil spring in order to get the gun to function with the new load.

The 155s shoot very soft. They generate lots of smoke, and I'm actually aware of the time it takes for the gun to cycle. My best time with the light loads is about 3.5 sec, but my times are more consistent (my worst times aren't that much slower than my best), so there is at least some benefit, but it's not universal.

The other thing I noticed was that it took 2 or 3 matches for me to get used to the light load. My performance actually dropped when I switched, and then improved as I got used to the load.

If you're shooting 40 PF above what you need to shoot, then you probably oughta download, but shooting 10 or 15 above PF, if you like the load, and it functions 100%, won't hurt.

Whatever you do, give yourself enough time and enough shots with a new load to really determine whether it is better or not. 10 rounds across the chrony and a couple of groups ain't gonna do it.

Good luck,

DogmaDog

[SherlockWV]

DogmaDog,

Thanks for the info. The load that I am running is only 16 above minimum PF with a 148 gr. lead so I think that I am OK. I have been running a Springfield loaded in 9mm because my 2 Glocks slice into my hand. But when I do shoot the .45 I am running a 200 Rainier's and they too are only 20 over minimum. With the nine, I have found that in the 1911 there is less felt recoil in the 148 running at 959 fps than the 115. But... the 125 pushed out around 1100 feels about the same.

There are two places I shoot locally where the metals are not to USPSA spec. The one in Zanesville, Oh is all metal and not very 9mm friendly. However the 148 gr. load does well on them. That is when I hit them.

I have copied your suggestions to my clipboard and will incorporate into my notes. It makes a lot of sense to allow time to get used to the lower load. But being a "newbie" I am going to stay where I am at and as time progresses I may experiment with lower loads. As previously mentioned, I have so much to work on at the fundamental level right now. Just getting consistent hits is my primary goal along with things I am trying to blend in at home from be's book.

Again thanks for the suggestions and your own personal experience. In time it will all come together. That is one of the reasons I love this site. So many experienced shooters are willing to share their knowledge. I am also very lucky to have made friends locally with some really good shooters.

Safe Shooting - JC