What does your club do about steel

[dmshozer1]

At our club,when we mix steel with paper, the question of priority and penalty or not come up.

Example. Stage procedure calls for the shooter to engage from cover of wall,T1,PP1,PP2,and T2, in that order.

Shooter puts two rds. on T1,shoots at both PP's but does not knock them down,puts two on T2. Then goes back to knock down the two PP's they missed.

Should there be a penalty because the shooter exposed themselves to threats that they obviously did not neutralize?

[UltraTen]

No penalty as long as the shooter attempted to shoot both PP's. It's no different shooting steel or paper. Now if he skipped the steel and shot out of order that's another story.

[dmshozer1]

In my opinion you should get a penalty.

When you shoot a paper target, you assume that you have neutralized it. When you miss a steel target and it does not fall,you know you have not neutralized it! If you continue on to the next target, you are exposing yourself to a threat you have not neutralized. That means to me you are not using cover.

I know this problem can be avoided by not placing the steel in that position but at our club ,we like to mix it up!

We go back and forth on this every time we do it.

Thanks for your opinion.

[Joe4d]

Nothing that I could find says anything about neutralize. The rule book says "engaged" whether or not someone thinks a target isnt neutralized has nothing to do with the rule book. Targets are ENGAGED as they are seen (slicing the pie).

[sirveyr]

If a competitor fires at least one round at each PP while engaging them in the proper tactical priority, then a there is no penalty. Just as Joe stated, they have been engaged. It is no different than engaging a paper targets with two mikes or two -3's. The target has been engaged, but not neutralized. Do you typically wait to see the holes on a paper target? No, of course not. You call the shot and move on to the next target. Steel just happens to give you audible feedback when it has been hit or lack of audible feedback when missed.

[dmshozer1]

I agree,the rule book does say engage.But, in this game that we play called IDPA,we are supposed to be in a gun fight.

IDPA is all about using cover because the "bad guys", the targets, are shooting back at us! So if you know you have missed a "bad guy" piece of steel,I think I would make sure that guy was dead before I exposed myself to shoot the next target.

I wish the rule book would address this.

[Steve Koski]

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4586

Question: Regarding the use of steel targets in a stage: Pepper poppers, Reid Reactors, etc. When engaging targets from cover, in Tactical Priority, is a steel target considered to be engaged when the minimum number of shots has been fired at it, ie: 1; or does the shooter have to wait to see if it falls before exposing himself to the next target in priority?

Answer: Typically it (steel) is considered engaged when the required number of rounds has been fired at it. The steel has to fall to be scored a zero otherwise it would be 5 down and a failure to neutralize (if it is a Vickers stage). If it is not hit after the required number of rounds fired (usually one on steel) the competitor can move on.

There are some issues that a stage designer or MD needs to be aware of. One is a safety issue. For instance, if the steel is at the end of a hallway that the competitor has to advance down after engaging the steel, the MD needs to stipulate that the steel can only be engaged from a certain point. You do not want someone missing the first shot and then advancing on the steel and engaging from what may be an unsafe distance. The second is if the steel is used as an activator. The MD needs to make sure that the competitors are aware that the steel has to be downed to active something.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

[dmshozer1]

If a competitor fires at least one round at each PP while engaging them in the proper tactical priority, then a there is no penalty. Just as Joe stated, they have been engaged. It is no different than engaging a paper targets with two mikes or two -3's. The target has been engaged, but not neutralized. Do you typically wait to see the holes on a paper target? No, of course not. You call the shot and move on to the next target. Steel just happens to give you audible feedback when it has been hit or lack of audible feedback when missed.

That is my point exactly! you KNOW that you have missed the steel, so why would you not re-engage it before moving on?

[sirveyr]

If a competitor fires at least one round at each PP while engaging them in the proper tactical priority, then a there is no penalty. Just as Joe stated, they have been engaged. It is no different than engaging a paper targets with two mikes or two -3's. The target has been engaged, but not neutralized. Do you typically wait to see the holes on a paper target? No, of course not. You call the shot and move on to the next target. Steel just happens to give you audible feedback when it has been hit or lack of audible feedback when missed.

That is my point exactly! you KNOW that you have missed the steel, so why would you not re-engage it before moving on?

I don't listen for the steel to be hit. I can tell if I've hit it by the sight picture.

[dmshozer1]

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4586

Question: Regarding the use of steel targets in a stage: Pepper poppers, Reid Reactors, etc. When engaging targets from cover, in Tactical Priority, is a steel target considered to be engaged when the minimum number of shots has been fired at it, ie: 1; or does the shooter have to wait to see if it falls before exposing himself to the next target in priority?

Answer: Typically it (steel) is considered engaged when the required number of rounds has been fired at it. The steel has to fall to be scored a zero otherwise it would be 5 down and a failure to neutralize (if it is a Vickers stage). If it is not hit after the required number of rounds fired (usually one on steel) the competitor can move on.

There are some issues that a stage designer or MD needs to be aware of. One is a safety issue. For instance, if the steel is at the end of a hallway that the competitor has to advance down after engaging the steel, the MD needs to stipulate that the steel can only be engaged from a certain point. You do not want someone missing the first shot and then advancing on the steel and engaging from what may be an unsafe distance. The second is if the steel is used as an activator. The MD needs to make sure that the competitors are aware that the steel has to be downed to active something.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

Thanks Steve

I understand if you miss a PP,continue on with the COF, the penalty for that.

In my case, you have missed the PP, continued on, then went back to knock it down. What then?

[sirveyr]

http://idpaforum.yuku.com/topic/4586

Question: Regarding the use of steel targets in a stage: Pepper poppers, Reid Reactors, etc. When engaging targets from cover, in Tactical Priority, is a steel target considered to be engaged when the minimum number of shots has been fired at it, ie: 1; or does the shooter have to wait to see if it falls before exposing himself to the next target in priority?

Answer: Typically it (steel) is considered engaged when the required number of rounds has been fired at it. The steel has to fall to be scored a zero otherwise it would be 5 down and a failure to neutralize (if it is a Vickers stage). If it is not hit after the required number of rounds fired (usually one on steel) the competitor can move on.

There are some issues that a stage designer or MD needs to be aware of. One is a safety issue. For instance, if the steel is at the end of a hallway that the competitor has to advance down after engaging the steel, the MD needs to stipulate that the steel can only be engaged from a certain point. You do not want someone missing the first shot and then advancing on the steel and engaging from what may be an unsafe distance. The second is if the steel is used as an activator. The MD needs to make sure that the competitors are aware that the steel has to be downed to active something.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

International Defensive Pistol Association

Thanks Steve

I understand if you miss a PP,continue on with the COF, the penalty for that.

In my case, you have missed the PP, continued on, then went back to knock it down. What then?

You just made up a miss and 2.5 seconds were not added to your time.

[dmshozer1]

If a competitor fires at least one round at each PP while engaging them in the proper tactical priority, then a there is no penalty. Just as Joe stated, they have been engaged. It is no different than engaging a paper targets with two mikes or two -3's. The target has been engaged, but not neutralized. Do you typically wait to see the holes on a paper target? No, of course not. You call the shot and move on to the next target. Steel just happens to give you audible feedback when it has been hit or lack of audible feedback when missed.

That is my point exactly! you KNOW that you have missed the steel, so why would you not re-engage it before moving on?

I don't listen for the steel to be hit. I can tell if I've hit it by the sight picture.

But my point is,if you don't get that sight picture,you should shoot again.

[Steve Koski]

This is a rules discussion, don't morph it to the zen plane of sight pictures/calling shots/listening for steel hits, etc.

If you miss the popper and don't make it up, you're down 5 (2.5 seconds) and a FTN penalty (5 seconds), so the total penalty time is 7.5 seconds.

(special situations aside) If you miss the popper, then later make it up, all it cost you was extra time.

Koski

[jasmap]

I believe you have your answer. There's nothing wrong with your thought process on this but the rules are the rules.

[Duane Thomas]

Since the OP's question has been answered with a definitive reply from IDPA HQ, I'm going to go ahead and close this one down. If anyone has anything of substance to add, PM me and I'll consider reopening it.