Idpa front serrations rule question

[stryfox]

I run a para 16-40 in esp

I cut my front serrations out. Basicly made it a smooth indent.

I have been running this way for years.

The question is can I continue this to the front of the slide? Like a browning hi power?

Or would this fall under slide lightening?

Thanks for any input.

IMG_2261.JPG

[yoshidaex]

haven't kept up with the IDPA rules but isn't there a rule stating minimum weight for each division?

I would argue the cuts you're making is more for cosmetic reasons than performance reasons.

Edited February 13, 2010 by yoshidaex

[Duane Thomas]

What you're describing is called a "panel cut". I can't imagine that someone hasn't asked this question of IDPA High Command at some time in the past and received a ruling. I'm sure the Enosverse Group Mind will be responding with a definitive answer in the near future.

Because yes, we ARE just that good.

[stryfox]

Max weight for ESP is 43 oz with an empty magazine.

I an right at 43 oz. If my gun was really dirty I might be over. Lol

I want to do it for cosmetic reasons. I just think it would look awesome.

Yes panal cut was the term I was looking for.

I guess the correct way to ask is....

Can I finish the panal cut from the rear of the front serrations to the front of the slide?

[Duane Thomas]

I've seen that done on 1911s before, and I think it look really sharp. Whether it's legal or not.... Anyone?

[Steve Koski]

It's not clear to me. Your stated intention is cosmetic, but you're removing a significant amount of material. You should email Robert Ray at IDPA and then post his response.

(ESP) EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

4. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for

further information).

(Glossary) Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a

competitive advantage.

[stryfox]

I will email them and see if they get back to me.

I did some web searching and found this.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_ultralight.asp

they call them carry cuts.

This seems promising since it is on a Wilson pistol and does not say it is for a competitive advantage.

I'm not a fan of the ball mill part but that's why we don't all have the same gun.

[CSEMARTIN]

It's not clear to me. Your stated intention is cosmetic, but you're removing a significant amount of material. You should email Robert Ray at IDPA and then post his response.

(ESP) EXCLUDED Modifications (NON-Inclusive list):

4. Slide lightening (see “slide, lightening” in glossary for

further information).

(Glossary) Slide, lightening: Removal of portions of the slide to gain a

competitive advantage.

Just how much weight does removing the front serrations equate too? What kind of competitive advantage would you expect to gain from removing the cocking serrations?

I see the rule above. I just don't see it.

[Joe4d]

The slide has been lightened, calling it cosmetic doesnt change that. You may also take a real good look at the bushing cut. making cuts like that leaves little to no steel over the groove cut for the bushing.

The cuts you have described are not listed on the inclusive list of permitted modifications. Therefore IAW the rule book should not be allowed.

[stryfox]

Just how much weight does removing the front serrations equate too? What kind of competitive advantage would you expect to gain from removing the cocking serrations?

I see the rule above. I just don't see it.

competitive advantage. None

I smoothed out the front serrations so I would stop beating up my leather carry holster. The weight for that was nominal, say 1/8 an ounce at most.

When possible I buy my 1911's without them. I just don't care for them.

[Duane Thomas]

Personally I love them. But then I do the "come up underneath the gun, pinch the front cocking serrations between your thumb and fingers, push to the rear" chamber check.

What is there about front cocking serrations that could possibly "beat up a leather holster"? I'm not seeing it.

[stryfox]

Personally I love them. But then I do the "come up underneath the gun, pinch the front cocking serrations between your thumb and fingers, push to the rear" chamber check.

What is there about front cocking serrations that could possibly "beat up a leather holster"? I'm not seeing it.

When I originaly smoothed them out I was useing a leather sholder rig.

The muzzle extended past the leather, when I would holster and unholster during the day it would saw at the holster.

The original old style para serrations were sharp and close together. Not like the current ones.

When I started shooting idpa i had to use a strong arm side holster.

After a few months of practicing I retired the sholder rig in favor of what I was practicing with.

For a few years I wished I could use the sholder rigs for matches as I eas use to it.

At this point I would not switch back. I have become use to carrying on my hip .

Hope this makes sence. Of course this is just my experience.

Sorry for any typos. Replying on my phone.

[Duane Thomas]

So, what you're saying is that with a hip holster the front serrations cause no problem, right? Then why worry about it?

[Precision40]

Removing the front/rear serrations IS slide lightening and I'd almost guarantee HQ will say the same.

[stryfox]

So, what you're saying is that with a hip holster the front serrations cause no problem, right? Then why worry about it?

Well forgetting about panal cutting it to the front of the slide.

I allready smoothed out the serrations and have been shooting it that way in ESP for about 5 years, local matches only.

Never had anyone say anything.

If removing metal from the end of the muzzel even If decrotive is against the spirit of idpa, I don't want to do it.

What concerns me now it that I may be using equipment that is against the rules.

I'm going to take some pics of my smoothed out serrations and send them to HQ.

I don't see any way this gives me an advantage but idpa is a game and I want to play fair.

I hope I don't have to fit a new slide to feel like I'm not a cheat. It has been accurailed and has a barsto bbl fitted ect.

[jmorris]

I hope I don't have to fit a new slide to feel like I'm not a cheat.

Now here is the silly part. You can have SV make a custom slide with any panel cut you want with any serrations, flat topped, tri cut, what ever you want. It’s not lightened if that’s how it starts life out. Remember there is no weight limit…

[Steve Koski]

Unfortunately, somebody has to make rules. No matter how they are made, everyone is bound to find some of them silly.

[E5MC]

Doesn't the "Bill Wilson Carry" model come this way. With a "HiPower" cut at the front. I can't imagine a Wilson pistol not being allowed in IDPA. But that's just an educated guess.

[stryfox]

I just wish some of them were not so vauge.

If I read the rules as an extreamest, cutting my slide for diffrent sights is lightening.

If I read them loosely, as long as I don't drill holes in it I'm good.

Now obviously the rules are somewhere in between.

Just where is not so obvious to me.

I'm not complaining about the sporT I choose to play. I am merely pointing out my point of view.

It is after all enhanced service pistol. Not stock service pistol.

Also I am a gamer and I carry my gamer gun 3 seasons a year.

some day I hope to be a master gamer!

again sorry for typos, typing on my phone.

[Steve Koski]

Doesn't the "Bill Wilson Carry" model come this way. With a "HiPower" cut at the front. I can't imagine a Wilson pistol not being allowed in IDPA. But that's just an educated guess.

I believe Wilson Combat makes several 1911's that aren't IDPA legal.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Steve Koski

[Loves2Shoot]

Removing the front/rear serrations IS slide lightening and I'd almost guarantee HQ will say the same.

Well, since a lot of slides come with no front serrations, you could say putting front serrations in is lightening, but it isn't.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to say any of the common configurations of bald (ala SVI) or various semi custom serrations or lack thereof are "slide lightening." If you do the math, the amount of weight removed is minuscule whether you leave tiny lines that make up serrations or make it bald.

Guess how much less this weighs than a serrated front cocking serration slide?

It weighs between a unique cut slide and a bald slide. Is it an illegally lightened slide? Does it matter than it is a custom gun and was made this way?

(I know the mag catch is not IDPA legal.)

[Duane Thomas]

I believe Wilson Combat makes several 1911's that aren't IDPA legal.

They do indeed.

[CSEMARTIN]

I think anyone would be hard pressed to say any of the common configurations of bald (ala SVI) or various semi custom serrations or lack thereof are "slide lightening."

I agree with you 100%, but it's still up to the match director.

[stryfox]

this is what the front of my slide looks like.

Again mine is a para 16-40 ESP class.

The weight "reduction" is probably about .1 oz at most.

I'm curious what my peers think, am I cheating?

[Loves2Shoot]

Those cuts on the Caspian side reduce the weight a whopping .3 oz over no front serrations, 13.5 oz. The slide with no front serrations 13.8 oz, a Sig GSR 1911 slide 12.1 oz, a STI Trojan silde is also 12.1 oz.

I don't see how a rational person could say a slide that is 1.4 oz heavier than other standard slides is "lightened" and has a "competitive advantage."