Clays confusion

[smallshot13]

I am confused on the use of Clays in the .45 acp. Most here sing its praises for use with 200, 230 grn, FMJ or JHP. I see data in Lee's, pg 671 for 230 grn, 3.7-4.0, for 683-732 fps; and Hodgdon on line lists 3.7-4.0, 670-732; no listing in Lyman, Speer, Hornady. Most references I see here like 3.8 grns, maybe 4.0 grns (which is max listed from sources cited) At 732fps expected vel, that's 168 power factor, barely major. I don't have a chrono at this time, so can only estimate. I've loaded 3.8 under various manufacturers 230's, (OAL 1.255) and find that OK to shoot, moderately accurate, but at 3.8, suspect they would be below major. Can someone help me out with more solid data until I can find/get chrono?

[rooster cogburn]

I use clays and rainier 230 gr plated bullets. I load 3.8 to 3.9 (scales bumping back and forth) and I shoot them in a Kimber Eclipse 5in. I get consisent major of 167. I shoot this in IDPA major matches and have never had a problem.

[2MoreChains]

I am confused on the use of Clays in the .45 acp. Most here sing its praises for use with 200, 230 grn, FMJ or JHP. I see data in Lee's, pg 671 for 230 grn, 3.7-4.0, for 683-732 fps; and Hodgdon on line lists 3.7-4.0, 670-732; no listing in Lyman, Speer, Hornady. Most references I see here like 3.8 grns, maybe 4.0 grns (which is max listed from sources cited) At 732fps expected vel, that's 168 power factor, barely major. I don't have a chrono at this time, so can only estimate. I've loaded 3.8 under various manufacturers 230's, (OAL 1.255) and find that OK to shoot, moderately accurate, but at 3.8, suspect they would be below major. Can someone help me out with more solid data until I can find/get chrono?

We're talking about Hodgdon Clays, right? Clays is a great powder if you're looking for low to moderate velocities, and is one that is relatively soft shooting and clean. However, as you've noted it doesn't have very much versatility at the higher end, and to achieve the PF's we need you're pretty close to, or right at Hodgdon's recommended maximums. That said, despite it's narrow range, it does make major, and when combined with its other attributes, it makes for a great powder hence the popularity.

I mainly shoot 200 gr moly SWC's, and use 4.3 grs of Clays to make about 170-172 PF depending on time of year. More like 172 in the summer, 170-ish in the winter. It's right at Hodgdon's max, but then again it's NOT over.

I sometimes shoot one of my other 1911's that doesn't like SWC's so much, so I have a load worked up at 3.9 grs of Clays with 230 moly RN that makes the same 170-ish PF. Again, getting pretty close to max, but I'm still under. No signs of over pressure, and the gun has been running well on those loads with no signs of battering (with multiple K rounds thru them). Plus I load them to 1.250", not the 1.200" that Hodgdon used when they tested.

So I guess my point is, unless you're uncomfortable with being that close to the manufacturer's max recommended load, Clays is a good powder, and plenty of competitors have used it with no ill effects. .45 acp also a relatively low pressure round, and is pretty forgiving.

Hope this helps.

[Graham Smith]

Part of the confusion may come from the fact that there are three powders called "Clays". Hodgdon Clays, Hodgdon Universal Clay, and Hodgdon International Clays. Most of the time, when you see Clays, it is referring to just plain Clays, but not always. But they are not interchangable - at all.

[gm iprod]

Staright CLays is the best allround powder for 45ACP in my book. When difficult to get I also use Titegroup and Win231. For a 200gr Lead SWC I just love the stuff. So do my guns. 185gr JHP will make major easily with 4.7gr in my Kimber Target Ltd.

Edited February 13, 2010 by gm iprod

[CocoBolo]

My load with Clays (just plain clays) with a 200gr SWC (Precison Bullets) in a 5" KKM barreled Caspian Custom is 4.3gr set at 1.260 with WLP. Shoots flat and soft and hits 171pf. No case buldge and the primer corners are round. I could drop the load but the gun likes it hot.

I use universal clays when I want to hit 190-200 pf for hunting.

[LPatterson]

My guns must be the exception rather than the rule and are slower than most or my chronograph is but with a jacketed bullet the best my gun will do with a max charge is a PF of 167. So I shoot that for practice and local matches and change to Solo 1000 or VV310 for meaningful matches. I didn't buy the Clays for pistol shooting I bought it for skeet. Powders I bought based on recommendations from this forum include Titegroup, American Select, E3, Ramshot Competion, Solo 1000, VV310, VV320, W231, WST and others I don't remember off the top of my head. So if you came to the forum for a single load, good luck.

[smallshot13]

Thanks for the replys and somewhat of a confirmation. I am on the right track. I believe the difference that is shaping up is between jacketed and plated or moly lead. Jacketed means slower velocities, making it closer to the major margin. So, Clays is great for lead, and may be great for jacketed, depending on your gun. Got it.! ! !

[2MoreChains]

Jacketed also means higher cost... Lead (and even moly) is cheaper!

Which depending on how much you intend to shoot, can make a big difference!

When loading moly, I found that I needed an extra 0.1 grains to achieve the same velocity that I was getting previously with a lead bullet. But load it like lead, chrono it, and work it up in small increments.

Good luck!

Bear Creek is where I get my moly-bullets. A little cheaper than their competition, but IMO just as good.

[CocoBolo]

My guns must be the exception rather than the rule and are slower than most or my chronograph is but with a jacketed bullet the best my gun will do with a max charge is a PF of 167. So I shoot that for practice and local matches and change to Solo 1000 or VV310 for meaningful matches. I didn't buy the Clays for pistol shooting I bought it for skeet. Powders I bought based on recommendations from this forum include Titegroup, American Select, E3, Ramshot Competion, Solo 1000, VV310, VV320, W231, WST and others I don't remember off the top of my head. So if you came to the forum for a single load, good luck.

Jacketed bullets take more powder than cast lead or moly bullets. In jacketed bullets I don't think that I have a single load that is within the bounds of any current load data being published by a Powder mfg. I'd like to figure out how to hang a pressue gauge on my gun but then it would get in the way. Just work it up slowly .2 at a time checking each step along the way for pressure signs if you get pressure signs stop. Throw away the higher charged rounds. I am not advocating starting above maximum but working up. Example 38 Super max for N350 is 6.9gr I load 8.0 w124gr. 40 S&W Winchester WST 4.3gr max w/180 my load is 5.1gr. I always load as long as the gun will eat to start OAL has a big impact on pressure. Just work up slowly.

I think that the tables are conservitive to advert potential law suits. None the less I encourage caution, work them up check for pressure signs.

Most of the loads on this forum are for USPSA/SSC/IDPA so they are to meet power factor and to achieve the feel that the shooter desires which in most cases is soft and flat but some like it snappy. Some folks have tried many powders some a few, open shooters on average try 6 or more powders, limited and prduction shooters 2 or 3. The difference in feel in an open gun can be huge in a limited gun or ss its a small change but when you are going for .2 second its worth it.

Edited February 14, 2010 by CocoBolo

[TerryO]

Yep, Hogdon Clays is great for .45. I use 4.0 and Montana Gold 230gr. in my STI. It's a little slower than most that's why the 4.0 grains instead of 3.8 or 3.9. Very clean shooting.

Terry

Edited February 15, 2010 by tohlmann

[twodownzero]

My guns make major with 3.6 grains of Clays with a 230 grain lead bullet.

[smallshot13]

Thanks for all your replys. As before, there is a difference between jacketed and lead, coated or plated. To drive this topic to specificity, can someone provide (or point out) specific examples for jacketed bullets only, comfortably/consistently making IDPA major with Clays? It does appear that lead bullets provide more flexibility in making IDPA major with Clays, but jacketed may be marginal at the limits of the loading data. I know I must get a chrono and do the work up myself, I am just trying to decide if the odds are in my favor to be successful with this powder, or to waste my time on another. And before you respond, an answer of yes your odds are good is not going to be specific enough.

[Bongo Boy]

...can someone provide (or point out) specific examples for jacketed bullets only, comfortably/consistently making IDPA major with Clays?

From the relatively anonymous sources at handloads.com I find two, both in fair agreement with one another:

4.0gr Clays 230gr FMJ 732 fps [168 pf]

4.2gr Clays 230gr FMJ 751 fps [173 pf]

I'm simply repeating what I've found at handloads.com; I have no way of knowing how well these loads perform in terms of consistency, but it appears the comfort is there--based on my experience so far with Clays, I'm comfortable with charges just above published maximums in weapons I know routinely handle +P factory ammo. It would be nice if folks published their standard deviation numbers instead of just their averages.

As for Clays, I'm not convinced it's that great an "all around" powder for .45 ACP, but it seems to be okay at the lower-to-mid velocities and apparently with lead bullets--especially real heavy ones. I'm currently struggling with it using 200gr bullets, with wild and crazy velocity variation. I truly can't condemn the propellant though, because I just don't know for a fact where the variance is coming from--but I think I'm down to the propellant, the chronograph or the operator.

Finally, I know you specifically wanted jacketed data, but Clays under the big lead bullet is working very nicely for me, and so of course you should try it too. Our own Duane Thomas provided a Clays load with a 255gr lead bullet, and I've twiddled and played with that for quite a while now.

The load I've settled on here is 3.4gr Clays and the 255gr RNFP Lee bullet. Note that my current run of bullets are only weighing in at about 242gr though, due to a purchase of 65 lbs of lead which contains quite a bit of zinc, I believe. These are now running flawlessly in a Sig P220 set up with a Sig P226 9mm recoil spring (15 lbs).

Edited February 17, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[LPatterson]

I have moved away from Clays to Solo 1000 because my Clays load was 4.2 with a 230gr Precision Delta @ 1.260 thru a 5" 625 and cyclinder averages varied from 168 to 173. The Solo gives a consistant 172 with a Montana Gold.

[DWFAN]

I have moved away from Clays to Solo 1000 because my Clays load was 4.2 with a 230gr Precision Delta @ 1.260 thru a 5" 625 and cyclinder averages varied from 168 to 173. The Solo gives a consistant 172 with a Montana Gold.

How much Solo ?

[LPatterson]

4.7 Solo-1000 230gr Montana Gold FMJ Starline brass crimp .470 OAL 1.260

[DWFAN]

4.7 Solo-1000 230gr Montana Gold FMJ Starline brass crimp .470 OAL 1.260

Ive got 8lbs coming for 9mm, and hope I like it just as well in .45

[LPatterson]

I've got 8# coming for .45 Area 1 & practice and some 130gr 9mm BBI.

[Tul9033]

I'm seeking a Solo 1000 230gr RN lead load. I'm thinking 4.5gr @ 1.25

I want to work up a few different loads for 230gr RN lead using Clays, Titegroup, and Solo 100 (my 3 inventory powders). Currently using 4.0gr Clays (plain) @ 1.125 OAL with a lead 230gr RN and I can't complain.

Once I get several worked up I am heading out for a day of testing/chronoing.