Plate doesn't fall, what do you do?

[Nik Habicht]

The score keeping RO does not need to watch the competitor's gun/hands all the time, their job is to watch the "bigger picture", as well as look for safety problems.

Troy

I'll agree with that statement as long as someone does not interpret it to mean the RO should see every hit/miss on steel. There are times, most often due to stage design, where it cannot be done.

Bill

Then the stage needs a bigger staff -- so another RO can watch every plate. Poppers don't require watching....

[wide45]

Good idea to avoid building stages where the RO's can't see the steel. That's just asking for trouble.

[twodownzero]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

[Flatland Shooter]

The score keeping RO does not need to watch the competitor's gun/hands all the time, their job is to watch the "bigger picture", as well as look for safety problems.

Troy

I'll agree with that statement as long as someone does not interpret it to mean the RO should see every hit/miss on steel. There are times, most often due to stage design, where it cannot be done.

Bill

Then the stage needs a bigger staff -- so another RO can watch every plate. Poppers don't require watching....

So why don't the poppers need watching? Because they are painted? That's why we paint the plates.

At our local clubs a lot of the walls are made of a lightweight solid material. Placing plates to both the hard right and the hard left shot through a small window makes for a challenging stage but one where some plates or poppers can only be seen by the shooter.

Ideally, all walls would made from snow fence material that allow the RO and/or scorekeeper see all of the plates; however, bullet marks on the plates will over-rule what either staff member thinks they see.

[Nik Habicht]

Poppers don't require watching in the same way that plates do --- because poppers aren't placed on a stand as plates are....

A hit on the stand, that knocks the plate over is REF. A hit that knocks a popper over isn't.....

[Flatland Shooter]

Poppers don't require watching in the same way that plates do --- because poppers aren't placed on a stand as plates are....

A hit on the stand, that knocks the plate over is REF. A hit that knocks a popper over isn't.....

A hit on the stand and there are no marks on the plate. Once the competitor has finished the stage, the plate is clean and still standing its a miss. If its fallen with no marks indicating a hit, its a REF.

Bill

[ima45dv8]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

I encounter this more often than I wish. I don't YELL "Stop". I just place my hand on the competitors shoulder and say, "That's a reshoot", followed by an explanation. I don't want them to waste ammo that might be better spent on a proper attempt at the course of fire.

Many messages can be communicated to shooters during a course of fire. The method of delivery means a lot.

[Nik Habicht]

Poppers don't require watching in the same way that plates do --- because poppers aren't placed on a stand as plates are....

A hit on the stand, that knocks the plate over is REF. A hit that knocks a popper over isn't.....

A hit on the stand and there are no marks on the plate. Once the competitor has finished the stage, the plate is clean and still standing its a miss. If its fallen with no marks indicating a hit, its a REF.

Bill

That's fine (in theory) if you're painting after every shooter.....

At many club matches, we're lucky if the plates get a coat of paint before we get started in the morning. (And yes, that's a match administration issue....)

Also -- if the range has gravel, or if there are other targets in the vicinity, it's possible to get a mark on the knocked-over plate, without it being hit. Since full diameter hits aren't required for score, and since a hit on the stand that drops a plate is range equipment failure, you still need someone watching the plates/stands....

[Flexmoney]

Silly rabbits.

Yes, we should paint.

Yes, we should pay attention.

If I am sure to issue the reshoot, I will stop the shooter. If not, a 30 round cof becomes a 60 round cof. Wasting ammo sucks. Running out is a real concern. I've seen it happen a number of times.

[LPatterson]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

I encounter this more often than I wish. I don't YELL "Stop". I just place my hand on the competitors shoulder and say, "That's a reshoot", followed by an explanation. I don't want them to waste ammo that might be better spent on a proper attempt at the course of fire.

Many messages can be communicated to shooters during a course of fire. The method of delivery means a lot.

As a firearms instructor I have had students turn toward me with a gun when I touch them so I now yell. I also had a shooter at the Nationals go up one side of me and down the other because I touched them.

If the shooter hits the support and the plate falls then I believe they should be stopped right then as nothing else they do is going to count so why let them expend ammo and run 25 yards for nothing. I've also had a shooter draw to a plate and hit the support 3 straight times so why let them continue.

[twodownzero]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

I encounter this more often than I wish. I don't YELL "Stop". I just place my hand on the competitors shoulder and say, "That's a reshoot", followed by an explanation. I don't want them to waste ammo that might be better spent on a proper attempt at the course of fire.

Many messages can be communicated to shooters during a course of fire. The method of delivery means a lot.

I only use range commands between "make ready" and "the range is clear."

[LPatterson]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

I encounter this more often than I wish. I don't YELL "Stop". I just place my hand on the competitors shoulder and say, "That's a reshoot", followed by an explanation. I don't want them to waste ammo that might be better spent on a proper attempt at the course of fire.

Many messages can be communicated to shooters during a course of fire. The method of delivery means a lot.

I only use range commands between "make ready" and "the range is clear."

If you are talking about "That's a reshoot", you are correct that it is improper to use but why would you not stop a shooter if you know they are going to have to reshoot. A shooter brings 150 rounds for a 120 round match, you are on a 32 round stage and let the shooter finish then tell them they have to reshoot versus 10 rounds into the stage tell them "STOP". Which way would leave them more flustered, knowing they don't have enough ammo to finish the match or knowing they have to be more accurate.

[twodownzero]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

I do the exact same thing. I am not a certified RO, but it doesn't seem to cause any harm to allow the shooter to finish and then order a reshoot. Yelling STOP at a shooter, for any reason, seems to fluster people. There's no reason for that. Just let them finish and they can shoot again. As the RO, just announce range equipment failure and let the pasters/resetters out on the range as soon as it is clear.

I encounter this more often than I wish. I don't YELL "Stop". I just place my hand on the competitors shoulder and say, "That's a reshoot", followed by an explanation. I don't want them to waste ammo that might be better spent on a proper attempt at the course of fire.

Many messages can be communicated to shooters during a course of fire. The method of delivery means a lot.

I only use range commands between "make ready" and "the range is clear."

If you are talking about "That's a reshoot", you are correct that it is improper to use but why would you not stop a shooter if you know they are going to have to reshoot. A shooter brings 150 rounds for a 120 round match, you are on a 32 round stage and let the shooter finish then tell them they have to reshoot versus 10 rounds into the stage tell them "STOP". Which way would leave them more flustered, knowing they don't have enough ammo to finish the match or knowing they have to be more accurate.

I don't yell stop unless I am absolutely certain that they need to reshoot a stage, and often, there are too many things going on. When I have the clipboard and I'm watching a competitor's feet, just because I hear a ding on a plate isn't sufficient. I need to see the shot fired and see a solid hit on the plate before I can call "stop." That is why we have calibration challenges (on poppers) and paint on plates.

I am talking about the poster who said he puts his hand on the shoulder of the shooter and says "that's a reshoot." (ima45dv8) There is only one proper range command if you are sure that a reshoot is in order, and that is "STOP," followed by "unload and show clear, if clear, hammer down, holster, the range is clear," followed by instructing the squad to reset the stage and telling the shooter to get ready for his/her reshoot.

Although I do think ima45dv8's method of stopping the shooter for a non-safety issue is more friendly, I wouldn't do it because I think that the MDs, Rangemasters, and CROs of this sport are correct when they say that we should only use range commands between "make ready" and "the range is clear."

Edited February 11, 2010 by twodownzero

[wide45]

The rule does not require a solid hit to the plate. Any hit must drop the plate, or it's a reshoot.

How many times have you checked a painted plate for two hits? Do you expect to be able to find an edge hit after the plate has hit the ground?