mreed911

Seems right. Too bad the ammo available wasn't major PF. Or is the right answer "nobody chrono's at Level 1's?" (I'm kidding, in case anyone misses the sarcasm)

Backstory: Running lower on 9mm than I'd care for and I don't reload. Got a great deal (in today's standards) on a lot of .45 GAP, and have a Glock 37 to shoot it from. It's all minor power factor, though... What USPSA division would you think this would best fit into: Production or Limited 10 (Minor)? Glock 37 in .45 GAP Standard 10 round magazines 140gr MINOR load (158 PF) Production seems to be the better option. I'll likely be using it for Steel Challenge production, too.

No competent competitor would pay to arbitrate this because 6.2.5.1 is black and white. If USPSA wanted to allow for sights flying off to not be an immediate bump to open, that's the rule they'd have to change.

Of course not. It's a DA gun. It's up to the RO to determine if anything is unsafe. If not, bang, rack, bang, rack, bang rack until you're happy with your time on the stage.

Yes. If during the course of fire the competitor fails to meet the division requirements, they're moved to Open (6.2.5.1). Having a CO gun with no optic does not meet the division requirements for CO and the rules state this happens if the competitor "fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire." They can/should continue the stage if safe/practical using their iron sights or point shooting if they prefer... or the competitor can opt to stop themselves, in either case it's scored as shot and the competitor is moved to Open. No reshoot is available to the competitor (5.7.6). They then talk to the RM about replacing the gun/equipment (5.1.7, which specifically includes sights) if they want, and finish the match in Open regardless. Even though they're bumping to Open no matter what, if the optic comes off and the competitor wants to attempt to re-attach it (consider someone using a QD mount on a handgun - unlikely but possible), the shooter has two minutes to rectify the situation on the clock (5.7.2). They still go to Open, though, because at one point during the course of fire, their firearm/equipment no longer met the requirements for CO. This is absolutely a call an RM should be involved in (and preferably making) since the RO/CRO should score the stage and move to the next shooter.

Hence arbitration.

Technically, after ULSC but before HDH or Range is Clear is still during the COF. The COF ends with Range is Clear. I'd have to say that HDH, then a 'card check' of holster distance before RIC would be a dick move, but well within the COF.

Again, considering I started them, signifying they were legal to start, that met criteria. Just like if a shooter trips, falls, maintains control of their gun but it pushes their mag pouch to an illegal position (under prior rules) and they never reload again through the end of the stage, am I bumping them to open for that? Of course not. It needs to be right to start the next stage. It was right to start this one, and through no fault of the competitor (not trying to gain and not using any competitive advantage) things went sideways. A dot coming off and finishing a stage with irons, or slapping the above-mentioned clip-weight on after the buzzer? That's a little more clear, and the rules address both of those: 1) two minutes to fix, or shot as scored, or continue with iron sights and bump to open and 2) if there's not a rule that says you can add it, you can't add it, and you can't modify your equipment without permission of the RM. Like anything, there's some judgement that comes into play.

I edited my comment. If I started the shooter, they were in compliance when I started them. At the end, I can't prove they weren't, and the shooter could argue "I felt something pop when I holstered that time - it just happened." Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter on something subjective like this.

As an RO, I'd be hard pressed to do this. The shooter could easily argue "it got knocked out of compliance during the stage, it was legal when I started." I'd score this as shot, then call the RM to discuss the REMAINING stages with the competitor. Moreso if I'd started the competitor on the stage - if I didn't note it then, I can't affirmatively say it was out of compliance at that time.

Chest rig. Man-tits will keep them from breaking the 180.

Note: I said weight, which would cause a gun to cross the 59oz limit, not optic. Would require no alignment. I'm being absurd to an extreme, for sure... to test the argument.

So I'll make the "ad absurdium" argument, then: Production shooter finishes make ready with a frame-mounted clip-on 12oz weight in his off hand. At the beep, he clips the frame weight on the end of his gun, runs the course of fire, then before "if clear, hammer down" removes the clip-on weight. He met the weight requirements at the beep and just to be safe, removes it before the end of the COF. Under your suggestion, that would be legal because he was legal at the beep.

Frankly, though, isn't this an edge case? Is it worth an actual rule?

Any competitor equipment can be changed with RM approval.

Distance requirements?

See my reply. And even though it's not canon, go read the linked blog post.

There is an NROI blog post on this, but it's not defined in the Appendix, it's covered under the "plain language" definition: https://nroi.org/rules-qa/flashlights-magnets-and-hip-bones/ "Functional means that it actually performs that function." FYI: the course of fire starts at Make Ready, not at the start signal. The start signal only begins the competitor's attempt at the stage once in the course of fire.

Well now I'm LOL'ing all over again. To be clear, I don't think it's a good idea as a competitive shooter, either... but you can't tell me folks won't do it.

Because it probably wasn't there yet. Look at the dates. I can't imagine wanting to RO a Level 2 or higher now with all these separate from the rule book.

no disagreement from me at all.

The sheer number of clarifications there is embarrassing.

Under what rule? CO requires optical/electronic sights, and the rules (and NROI) designate lasers as optical/electronic sights and as per the ruling they can be used in Open since that allows optical/electronic sight. As long as it's mounted behind the ejection port on top of the slide, it complies with the CO rules. Per Troy's words: "lasers... are considered a sighting device" - if that's true in Open, it's true in CO - it's the same "device," as long as it's mounted appropriately for use in CO.

Which goes to my earlier point - how long before we see RMR's with lasers built in to the base of them?