1chota
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Posts posted by 1chota
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nra cmp offers completely new (re-built) M1s for $995. that is the way to go if you don't got one.
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someone earlier had replied that muzzle brakes were not allowed. is ok. we fighting the good fight. i am off to the range in the morning to get zeros with both my M-1s.
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General could you please change my entry to reflect WWII division.
Now I am on the hunt for a Garand!
This ought to be cool.
Patrick
NO NO NO!!! Patrick must be kept out of the division so that the rest of us stand a chance....
I have seen that man shoot his M1A.
if you are afraid, just put Visine in his coffee. if, you are afraid.
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Who of you are shooting the WWII division?
Patrick
after our PM discussions, i have decided to drink the kool-aid. i am gonna do it!
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sometimes fun is simple: popping caps, burning powder, launching bullets. see?
mebbeso not a spectator sport, but then again, mebbeso. even if my match doesn't go so well, ( and many don't these days), i still am having fun. some folks might be too picky, make friends with whoever you shoot with. most of those in our sport are really fun to be around. (there may be one or two grumps, but most are really great!)
i generally come home from a 3 gun get together with numerous bruises, cuts and scrapes. fortunately these days, the wife knows i haven't been in a bar fight.
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No better yet...X-ray machines or an MRI machine...we shall spare no expense. Seriously though, steel jacketed ammo doesn't hurt steel per se, it's the armor piercing steel core stuff, i.e. black tip .30 cal and green tip 5.56.
So - whats the ruling?
Is steel jacket OK? Only steel core penetrators not OK?
If that is true - then we cannot use the magnet test.
I heard some inconsistent stuff last year.... almost all your Wolf/Barnaul Russian .223 is mild steel jackets. It is soft as can be, and damages a target FAR less than M193, due to it's lower velocity.
no cross-bred termite bullets!
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No better yet...X-ray machines or an MRI machine...we shall spare no expense. Seriously though, steel jacketed ammo doesn't hurt steel per se, it's the armor piercing steel core stuff, i.e. black tip .30 cal and green tip 5.56.
that was them cross-bred termites. they been had by them africanized bees and fire-ants. they eat through anything!
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Just want to clarify at this point regarding WWII rifle configurations in case the question should come up later.
Per the rules for WWII, a muzzle brake/compensator on the rifle would be OK?
Dang. You guys are always looking for an edge. Have to confirm with the General, but while brakes and comps are not specifically prohibited, neither Garand nor 303 Enfield had one, therefore having one in WW2 division is not allowed.
Might be a good time to remind about steel jacketed ammo in WW2 division. Just about all the 30-06 surplus is steel jacketed, even ammo you might not expect to be. For instance, both Greek HXP and most Lake City (LC) have steel jacketed bullets and are prohibited, as of this writing. I checked my personal stash LC, and it attracts a magnet.
Steel jacketed it is not. it has a lot of antimony in it. Cut the bullet open and take a peek. Lead core, copper plated alloy (with a lot of tin.) this has been discussed in another thread. the steel core stuff is black tipped and will definitely mess up a target. the .223 M193, which is not steel jacketed will damage a target a 100 yards worse than this stuff. by the by, my LC does not draw a magnet. Most of it is from the late 60s.
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AAArrrggghhh!!!!!!!
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Kevin- I was wondering the same thing. I keep checking here and the TMG website.
General Chang's post said October 1.
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Here's an idea...
At Johnson 3-Gun, we only had room for 90 competitors, so we didn't want really small divisions, so we only had one He-Man division, Iron .308, .45 pistol, pump shotgun...BUT, we allowed a scope on the .308 for those shooters in the division 55 years or older. Eddie wasn't yet 55, but Wynn was! It was an experiment on our part, but it might be an okay idea for those matches out there trying to consolidate He-Man or their divisions in general!
Rocky Mountain 3-Gun will be continuing with both He-Man Iron and He-Man Scope, at least for the near future, but it worked okay for Johnson 3-Gun and it's just an idea!
Denise
yup, i am definitely over 55. real quick i will be 64.
wynn
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I started shooting He-Man at RM3G in 2004. i had an M1A, an 870 and a 1911. I shot He_man until the end of 2007 when my 60 year old (at that time) eyes decided they couldn't see the front sight. i switched to scope. if i get corrective lenses where i see the sights, i cannot, i repeat cannot, see the target at distance. there is a big dif between near sighte folks and far sighted folks. nuf said on that. i agree with the .45 and pump 12 ga. Kirk at ozark called his class heavy optic and allowed an autoloading shotgun. i agree He-Man should be pump shotgun. if a 1x optic is allowed, then why not allow a magnified optic??????? if you think it don't mean nothing look at Denise's post where more than twice as many competitors shot He-Man scope as He-Man irons.
if the MD has a different set of rules than you like, then don't shoot that match. me, i like shooting the .308 (carried one for many years) and i like the 12 gauge pump (carried one of those for many years, too). i only toted a .45 for a short while, but it fits my normal sized hands.
again, don't be so anal that you quit the course. Pat, i really like to watch you shoot that M1A. come back.
if you guys want real He-Man, shoot the Texas Multi-gun next spring where the WWII division is gonna be happening: M1 Garand, pump 12 ga. and 1911 .45.
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Why no shotgun in the mix??? I tried to shoot it, but I can't carry all that stuff. I'm a whimp!
Anyway, at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun 2011, we had 15 in Heavy Iron and 37 in Heavy Scope. That's over 50 shooters! Not terrible!
Just saying!
Denise
and please note, that there were over twice as many shooting the scope He-Man as the iron sight He-Man. I being one of them. in law enforcement we call that a 'clue'. hence my vote for allowing scopes.
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Please let's not allow the most challenging form of 3-gun to fall by the wayside.
I'm planning on doing HM in major matches for 2012. And where the match would allow it, with a 1x4 scope on my rifle.
We already have:
Tac lite optic and Tac lite iron and
Tac Heavy Iron.
Lets add:
Tac Heavy optic
The other 2 guns for Heavy? A .45 and pump 12 as it should be.
At least for Rocky Mountain. The way the prize table is run it would be interesting and possibly encourage more participation in Heavy.
Anyway, for the Larue Pacific Theater match at Best of the West I plan on shooting my M1 Garand, 45 single stack and 870 pump. That's kind of He-Man/Heavy Metal right?
remember to bring bayonet. Sheldon likes us to stick something during his match.
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Great...another change to the smallest division.
The answer has been expressed many, many, many times before by people who ACTUALLY shoot the division!
Change nothing EXCEPT>>> Allow 1X optics on the rifle.
Same 20 round (308 Winchester / 7.61x51 ONLY) Rifle.
PUMP shotgun damn it! Man up or move on! 9 max at the start.
Pistol 45 ACP!!! You can pick the platform. Limit 10 rounds.
The resurgence we have seen in Limited is absolutly due to the inclusion of 1x optics! Let us do the same for HM/He-Man.
Actually I don't know why I bother, this poor little division just needs to die. One of the reasons I don't shoot it anymore.
Patrick
i don wanna die! up to that point i was with you. man up, you manly man and come back.
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I just shot the NRA Tactical Police match at Albuquerque. Their scoring system is similar to IDPA, but they score "down". If the hit is cutting the perf, the score is the lower score. They add 2 seconds for C hits, and 4 seconds for D hits.
I shot the Ozark match. The targets were challenging but not that far. (220 yds. max.) however, the shooting positions and the size of the targets made things more dicey. (Like Patrick said, make the targets harder to hit, not so much farther away.) 5" plates with the pistol at 25 yds. sure is one way. Very few paper targets there.
I would like to see the D zone go away.
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jj wrote:
...The Adding total time method just makes the longest stage the deciding stage.Huh?
I'm sorry, but you lost me there.
I take it you haven't really eyeballed any scores from major IDPA matches before, then???
Again, you have the raw data there expressed as a time. In my opinion, it is NOT in need of any other superfluous manipulation...which typically...all that does exaggerates results or spreads.
Its quite simple really; For IDPA matches I suppose it works ok, don't really know, and don't really care. I don't agree at all with the IDPA concepts...but thats another story...
Total time scoring may work for a pistol match, IF all the stages have the same number of targets and take about the same amount of time to run. Where you get into trouble trying to press a 3gun match into that mold is usually the stages are different in length. Take a match with a 24 round burner shotgun stage that takes about 15-20 seconds to complete, and a long 3 gun stage that takes 2-3 minutes to complete, all the other stages are somewhere inbetween. The longer stage will have more weight in the total match when using total time, and the order of finish in that stage will probably be darn close to the order of finish of the match. And if you do poorly and take 4 minutes to complete that long stage, then you are totally out of any kind of decent finish because you are a minute behind everyone.
normalizing all stages to 100 match points turns each stage into a single challenge of itself. single gun burner stages, long 3 gun stages, doesn't matter because each is worth the same number of match points, and they are all different challenges which is what we are trying to test at a 3 gun match; the shooter's totally abilities with all combos of all 3 guns in all kinds of different scenarios, short, long, etc. if you win a 30 second stage by 3 seconds that gives you 10 matchs points over 2nd place. If you do the same in a total time match, those 3 seconds basically give you nothing, because in the longer stages 3 seconds isn't worth much.
More examples;
3 person, 3 stage match, Total Time scoring;
shooter A - stage 1-30sec ,stage 2-50sec, stage 3-120, total 200sec
shooter B - stage 1-27sec (stage win), stage 2-49sec (stage win), stage 3- 130sec, total 206sec
shooter C - stage 1-32sec, 2-52sec, 3-115sec (stage win), total 199sec MATCH WINNER
Or by normalized scoring;
shooter A stage 1 90 points, stage 2 98 points, stage 3 95 points, total 283 match points
shooter B stage 1 100 points, stage 2 100 points, stage 3 88 points, total 288 match points MATCH WINNER
shooter C stage 1 84 points, stage 2 94 points, stage 3 100 points, total 278 match points
In both matches, shooter A was the most consistent, and took 2nd place in both. GOOD SHOW!
Shooter C was not at all consistent, but won Total Time because he did so well in the long stage. Should he have won the match? I say no.
Shooter B won 2 stages but was last place in the 3rd stage. He won the normalized match, but was last place in the total time match because he lost the longest stage.
This is kind of a short match with only 3 stages, but you get the idea. With more stages the 88% that shooter B got will probably be his worse stage, but again, that total time problem of the longest stage being the deciding factor pretty much does him in.
jj
+1000 what he said.
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You keep going like this JJ and I am going to put your name in for 3 GUN CZAR!!!!
I would like us to keep this stuff simple. You want more accuracy on paper up close???? Don't use draconian
scoring methods...just use smaller targets.
Don't want shooters to "blow-off" long range targets...add time bonuses or if you must time penalties.
Simple to score makes for faster stage clearance between shooters.
As soon as you start getting hammered for hit outside of the "A" zone that is when overlays and target disputes
begin and the clock between shooter is running.
And speaking of rules....
I am going to get bit hard for this little gem.
If "Our" thinking is going to be "if it ain't written down in the rules, then it must be OK" is the REASON
rules books get BIG!
I know how to play fair and do...do you??? I am not pointing fingers here just putting this out for digestion.
OK kids hammer away.
Patrick
+100 What he said.
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Mr. Murphy and the match gremlins showed up. all things considered, the outcome was done as best as could be done. the stages were great. it was a match where the really gee whiz guys could excel and the average schmoes, like me, could get it done. all of us are sorry for the way the computer gremlins did things, but, oh, well. Kirk, Larry, and all the ros did a great job under some very trying circumstances. i know the ros were under a great deal of frustration but never let it show to the competitors. what a great bunch of guys! i will be back. signed, old and slow and miss alot.
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41 round shotgun stage! yikes! i am gonna need an ammo bearer.
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the really big guy told me about 125 each. i thought that was a lot of slugs, tho. i imagine we will soon find out.
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Is there a special match rate for the rooms - or it is just the http://innatgrandglaize.com/ normal rates?
they gave me a rate of 55 plus tax.
Wynn, is that with the senior discount?
Kidding aside looking forward to seeing you and Glenn again already.
Heck it has been 2 weeks now!!
Jim M.
that is a 'super senior' discount. old, slow and miss alot.
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Is there a special match rate for the rooms - or it is just the http://innatgrandglaize.com/ normal rates?
they gave me a rate of 55 plus tax.
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I have used the SMK 135 gr (.277 diameter) out to 800 yards very successfully. Great bullet for .270 caliber IMO. Drive it fast and it goes where you point it very well in the wind.
see above edit.
TEXAS MULTIGUN 2012
in Multi-Gun, Rifle & Shotgun Match Announcements
Posted
Brownell's has a grab'n'go M-1 clip carrier much like a messenger bag slung over the shoulder. lots less $$$ then there are the surplus m1 belts (most are reproductionss) from places like cheaper than dirt and other surplus vendors.