gavagai

Anyone know if there are any compatible dovetail mounts for the P10-C?

So, we're talking about a 320 current vs 320 X5. I'm inferring that you are committed to buying a 320, so other guns are moot. What reasons would you have for waiting? You wonder if the FS (say) will do the job. Apparently, although it won't be as good (or why consider the wait at all?). You wonder that you'll be left with a boat anchor later. If you are prepared to send it to GG and have it offline for months after you buy an X5 later it will get closer to an X5 (and similar to what the Sig team was shooting this year so more than good enough) as a backup. I wouldn't count on the FCU being able to park in the new grip module, especially given the different slide lengths, so it would have quite different ergos. I personally wouldn't consider that a backup. It will never be as flexible (eg. Limited + Production suitability), but you are targeting Production so maybe that's moot. You already have a Prod gun and wonder if you will get enough improvement. Depends on what you have. I have a 226 that nobody but a hardcore Sig retro fanboy would suggest for Production/CO but I'm using that and waiting because it's good enough for me. You either can't afford or otherwise object to having two guns when one would do, or you are married. If you already have a gun this is a no brainer - wait. If you have nothing Prod suitable then are you prepared to wait an unspecified time for the X5 (if you've been following threads you'll know that some of us have been waiting a year now already - I guess that's both good and bad)? You wonder if the thing will ever actually be released. Welcome to our nightmare. You've heard about the CZ P10-C and thought the C stood for Competition. Wait, sorry, you're buying a 320 (and no, it doesn't). Personally, unless I either didn't have a gun suitable for shooting USPSA in any division at all, or had no resource constraints buying a gun, I would wait. A stock 320 FS has no appeal to me for competition. Others differ.

I'm curious, since I've never shot 40 minor, how does a 180 gr minor load feel in comparison to 9 minor? Is it like 147s or something different altogether?

That's just depressing. You're convincing me :-(

Everybody thinks that their passion is the cat's pajamas. I was a well known notorious bore with another previous activity of mine trying to persuade others to try it. I think people often feigned interested because they'd tried everything else to shut me up. I try to avoid that now, although my wife suffers a bit listening to me blather on. It's a huge time commitment, as mentioned. That's actually a material problem for me. It's a huge step up from shooting paper at the range. Probably a step too far. It's a potential ego hit, as mentioned. People have other interests that take priority (eg. families). Add all that up and it's not really a surprise to me that the tryout rate is pitiful. I started shooting in an indoor range that had a local league with a kind of timed lane rapid fire at various distances with different kinds of USPSA-like start positions. They were pretty much all better than me, and knew it, and mostly pretty good shooters who would have done well (one of the better ones performed at about B-class straight up). I tried to get a few to go to matches but very few ever did. For various reasons they didn't have the desire. The other thing I have noticed is that not everybody is that enthusiastic about growing the sport anyway. I've never seen anyone doing anything to actively discourage anyone, but I've never seen much outreach either (not that I've been around that much). It's basically just word of mouth by people like those on this thread.

Can't argue with that. My comments do presuppose they actually deliver some time in our lifetimes (and this isn't some internet hoax). But to keep teasing at this point would seem counterproductive - the 320 has already had a successful launch, and the team has been disbanded. It seems like we're past the point of diminishing return for BS. I probably would have bought a 320 already if they hadn't touted the Target last year, so who knows - it might even have been a drag on sales for the competition market. I won't btw (buy a FS or RX) if they don't deliver - I was pretty much done with Sig until these latest specs came out but nothing short of delivery will pry $$s from my hand (gleefully though, if they do deliver). Running my 226 in the meantime isn't too much of a hardship. On the other hand, history is not on my side.

I've been reflecting on this, and I have to say the attention to detail implies a certain degree of commitment to competition shooting by Sig that I've been very skeptical of up to now (man, is that setting myself up for ridicule). This is not a "slap a fiber optic up front and call it a USPSA model" kind of commitment. It's not just a boutique X5 gun. This looks like the gun the shooting team might have imagined and lobbied for. Bull barrel, grip weights, 140mm mags, detachable magwell, long slide with lightning cut. I mean this looks like a cold, hard USPSA build checklist. I'm trying to think of a feature I would add, and assuming the trigger is good, I'm coming up blank (extended mag release?). It's hard to imagine this happening without Bruce Gray and the rest of the team, so my hat is off to them. If you believe in Sig's reliability and accuracy (my 226 has proven that to me) then this removes almost every other objection you could have. There's the bore axis trope, and it's not as heavy as a Shadow 2, but what else Is there to stop you? My checkbook felt neglected a few weeks ago, but right now it's got that lovin' feeling.

That is the problem, right there :-) Thanks for your suggestions and for taking the time to help me out.

Ok, @Absocold, I come up with about $1300 for the non gun stuff. That was a surprise, so thanks for that. Leaving $1700 for the rifle. But I'd be happy to spend less.

Northern Idaho. New to the area. The longer range comps are in eastern Washington.

Grip weight, detachable magwell, plate mounted rear sight. Add a 40 top end and a Romeo and you can shoot Prod, CO, and Limited all off the same frame and trigger group (presumably GG) out of the box for sub $2k. Nice. 2018 looks promising.

Don't worry, I mentioned it as a general comment on the state of the game rather than as a consideration for me. Especially plunking down 2 big ones for some kit that you're not even happy with, but I guess you just have to suck it up when you're at that end of the field. My research so far suggests a $500 max with high hopes for the Jim Owens.

@Absocold I'll do some research on this and post my findings. Thanks for the list. @davsco I'll certainly attend some matches when the weather improves and get the lay of the land. As a new level set, I am intrigued by scoped service rifle which has a lot of match support in my area and which seems interesting to me (thanks @RJH). So I guess my focus has moved away from F-class a bit toward National Match events. Half of them are still run at 200-600 yards here though, so 600 yard range remains a criterion. I checked out the CMP forums and was horrified that a NIghtforce 4x scope for this purpose is something like $1800, and also that nobody is happy with the current offerings. Not so much :-) Seriously, this is a hard limit. I'd really really like to spend less. If I get a B+/A- kind of gun I'd be thrilled. I like to always have guns better than me but that's not a high bar. For this one I am just imagining that I am a tolerable shooter because I want to avoid an endless cycle of upgrades as I gradually improve to mediocre.

If you mean have a smith put together components I could do that. If you mean me, I can barely change my oil.

Thanks everyone. It probably seems all very obvious to you, but it's really, really helpful to me. It's very liberating to be able to concentrate on a single platform and caliber too. In particular, I didn't realize that an NRA Service Rifle could be scoped, and that both expands my match options enormously and reduces my optics choices, which can't be a bad thing. I noticed that there's a 4.5# trigger limit and I'm guessing that would make F-TR a bit difficult, so I might not be able to get away with just swapping out an upper. On the other hand, I only have one real F-class match available anyway, so maybe I can just focus on NRA High Power and do my best at F-TR. Does anyone want to offer a suggestion for a decent quality scoped Service Rifle platform? This one? (per RJH)

Thanks, Jack. That's a hard max for rifle, optics and anything else I need. I'll gladly spend (way) less if I can be "competitive" at those matches. To give a USPSA analogy, I would be happy with a PRP/Springer XDM or Apex M&P level of competitiveness - I'm not looking for a tricked out Accu Shadow, but I don't want a stock Glock 19 either. Unfortunately, I don't really know what that means for rifles. This will likely be my only rifle, so I don't need to "buy once, cry once" on optics or anything either. Cheaper is definitely desirable.

I'm a complete novice with rifles. I've only shot pistols before. I'm keen to get advice as I research how to get into competitive rifle shooting. I would like to do precision rifle, but my range options are limited. Hope this still qualifies for this forum at these ranges. I checked the forum but only found one relevant thread and it's 8 years old. So, here's my situation... Great (5 mins) access to 100,200 yd range. Good (45 mins) access to 400 yd range. Reasonable (1.5 hour) access to 300,600 yd range. Near vision is gone. I use red dots on pistols now. Only interested in competition shooting - not a hunter. Compatible local area competitions per year are: 1 x offhand (scope allowed) @ 100, 1 x NRA any sight (rule 3.3.2) @ 100, 1 x F-class @ 300, 600, 1 x (reduced target) F-class @ 100. Along with USPSA pistol comps that's enough for me. No plans to reload for now, so good factory ammo availability is a requirement. That might change if I get a taste for it. Realistically, I'm never going to have the time to travel to true long range events, so it's 600 yd max. So, my questions are probably obvious: What kind of rifles are a good fit for these opportunities? Calibers? How should I apportion money to rifle vs scope vs attachments? I've done a lot of web research, but the choices are a bit overwhelming. Bolt action vs semi auto? 6.5 CM vs 223? I'm mostly looking for broad directions that I can follow up research on, but I'll take specific advice too gladly. My budget is $3k all up, starting from absolutely nothing, and I'm unlikely to have enough money to keep upgrading beyond barrel replacements etc, so it's kind of an endgame rifle for me. In the absence of advice I would be thinking about an accuracy oriented AR or a 6.5CM Ruger Precision or Savage BA10. I'm trying to digest the optics advice in the FAQ.

@mreed911 Was just free advice for the OP, since he was setting up a new SS gun similar to mine, but I really like them. Looks like yours have a similar pattern. The Techwell magwell is "fitted" to the grips as a separate part, but kind of a cheater magwell too. Works flawlessly for me. I tried a Smith & Alexander mainspring housing magwell but I must have screwed something up and got loads of light strikes so I reverted to the original MS housing and tried the Techwells. The problems disappeared. I'd shoot this gun all the time if I could still see the sights without correctives.

I use Wilson Combat mags successfully on my 9mm. If you ever think about switching out the cocobolo grips, I went with Techwell SureTec G10 Aggressive grips with a Techwell IPSC magwell and I am very happy with them. These are my favorite of all the grips on any of my guns. Mine is an older Loaded model, but basically the same gun. Techwell SureTec Aggressive

Well, mounted the Burris FF3 on the dovetail mount and zeroed it today. Works just fine and the mount is way clear of the LCI - thanks for the tip. I'm still amazed how accurate this gun is, and 6800 rounds for 1 x FTE. If only I didn't malfunction.

I have similar goals to you, a favorite 4# 1911, and just recently went through the same transition, so I identified with your post. I saw a video on YouTube by TGO where he basically said "just pull it" and it immediately clarified a bunch of things. Firstly, too much of my conscious thought was on the trigger pull - like the other posters suggested. I pretty much followed the advice given by all the previous posters after some trial and error. Theirs is good advice and it will save you time to follow it. Secondly, if you pull rapidly, which is pretty much a necessity in this sport, then there is precious little opportunity for conscious feedback from the trigger and all that remains from the trigger point of view that makes a material difference to accuracy is resistance. I tried a bunch of other guns after I had burned in the technique and neither pre travel, after travel, reset, nor trigger placement made a material difference (ok, maybe a very deep break, but I think that's a personal shortcoming). I still have preferences in those areas, but they didn't materially affect my groups. The one thing was trigger weight, where I sprayed the DA shots a bit with my Sig and some heavy SAs for a while. But even here under about 3.5-4# I couldn't tell any difference. I have a sub 2# CZ with the most beautiful trigger that a strong wind would set off, but in retrospect I don't think it gives me any advantage. Kind of like driving a Ferrari to the supermarket - it's a thing to marvel at and appreciate, but it doesn't really do anything for you. One big take away for me, especially since I'm soon to buy my first striker fired gun, is that I don't need to compromise my ideas of safety on the thing to have a competitive gun. Just to be very clear, I'm not making any objective claims about trigger geometry or weights or anything. YMMV. This is just my personal experience, but it's worth paying attention to yours. Thirdly, it only took about 300 rounds to rid myself of the trigger fixation and get back to the same groups (shooting much faster), so I don't think it's a difficult transition once you have realized that you need to make it. In my case, it was all about grip and shifting the focus. I did it live fire, but I'm pretty sure you could accomplish it purely with dry fire if you are good at calling your shots. It works, and it's worthwhile. Good luck.

I kind of agree with both sides a bit .. 1. Minor (in major divisions) was not about fairness. It was about access (which is a worthwhile goal on its merits). 2. Shooting minor is not "unfair" (because you don't have to), but it *is* competitively disadvantaged (probably deliberately, I don't know the history) 3. Major PF is a historical anomaly, presumably based on the original ideas of what an "acceptable" round was in the 70s (reasonable minds can differ about that, but I don't think you can argue that the same consensus exists today). 4. Let's not forget minor PF is ridiculous too - 125 PF is so soft it pretty much requires reloading or custom commercial competition loads to get there and I've read that 9mm rounds in the old days were hotter than they are now - so I suspect that was probably an effort to be fair. 38 super and 9 major only exist for Open sport shooting (and Open means open). 45ACP will never die because it has a champion, but it's already becoming a boutique round and expensive. 40S&W looks pretty tenuous long term, although it would take a while to die if it does. Looks to me like 9mm will be more and more ubiquitous and more and more relatively dominant (FBI, demographics, ballistics, cost etc). I can see a similar, but not as dramatic trend towards optics. Major, and the divisions we have, are the way it is. There is a strong case for keeping it the way it is for the reasons elaborated above like obsolescence and consistency. That doesn't make it make sense though - that would be a different argument. Car controls are ergonomically ridiculous, but there are very strong reasons not to change them. That doesn't make them any less ridiculous. I don't have any specific proposals, and I get that change would be very hard and painful, but I get a bad vibe about where we are now. Here's the thing. Ten years down the road do we want to be a bunch of broke old guys fighting over 40 cal cases on the stages and shooting with iron sights that we can't see? Things can be great one day and gone the next. Ask Blockbuster.

Before this thread I had made a snarky post aimed at Sig which I don't regret, but that certainly wasn't directed your way. It was always interesting to hear your play-by-plays, even if it didn't turn out the way we had all hoped. Sure would be interesting to have you elaborate on your preference for the 320. The thread could do with some sunshine. The problem with that, for most readers here I imagine, is Production legality. It's pretty much Bruce (+ Sig) or bust for that - at least for visible changes.

Thanks, JGus. That's high praise. After this, along with the encouragement of the other posters, I think my mind is made up.

Thanks. I'm going to try the Burris mount you mentioned. This is a super reliable and accurate gun with a smooth trigger, but I've struggled to shoot it well. It deserves another try before I move to Plan B.