DogmaDog

Hey all, I've recommended these in other threads, and got some positive feedback, so I thought I'd mention them here as well. USMC's doctrine division publishes the manuals for rifle marksmanship and pistol marksmanship, and is working on competetive marksmanship. They're thorough, well-illustrated books on basics, covering weapons handling, basic marksmanship, and some more advanced stuff, like engaging multiple targets and moving targets, use of cover, reloading with one hand, and other combat techniques. Get them in PDF format here: https://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/htm/doc4.htm Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Carlos, http://www.natchezss.com has Federal 147gr on sale for 6.99 a box. About $16 to ship 1000 rounds. So about the same price as you've already found. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Hey abc, Welcome to shooting, and the forums. Another good basic pistol shooting manual is the Marine Corps Pistol Marksmanship manual, available here: https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/mcrp/htm/mcrp301b.htm It's good you're analyzing all aspects of your shooting, and experimenting with different things. That said, accuracy problems with new shooters are almost always related to the two most fundamental things: Sight Alignment and Trigger Control. Look at those things first! If you're hitting low, you may be looking over your sights to see the target (don't...focus on the front sight!), or you may be pushing the heel of the gun in anticipation of the recoil (don't...just work on a slow, steady squeeze of your trigger--the gun should surprise you when it goes off!) For the most part (in my opinion), changing stance and grip and head position will have little effect--they're more like minor tweaks whereas SA and TC are the real keys to solid performance. So just find a basic, simple, comfortable stance to start with, and learn the fundamentals. Also, I'd suggest you seek professional instruction. A few hours at the outset can prevent you from developing bad habits, and it's much easier to simply learn something the right way than it is to un-learn the wrong way, and then learn the right way. Good luck, DogmaDog

Should be no problem. You'll cause wear on the gun, but not any faster than actually shooting it. Same with dry firing. And I don't know for sure that letting the slide go home on an empty chamber is really all that harmful, or why. Semper Fi, DogmaDog Ron, what were you saying about the loudest sound at a shooting match? "click", was it?

Newguy, Many have offered good suggestions, and I agree that you shouldn't give up. I will offer what will be an unpopular suggestion: maybe you should try a different shooting sport with less focus on speed, like PPC or bullseye. Of course, if you do, you'll likely still get frustrated. I'm only a marksman class IDPA shooter, and I also tend to score high in the points department (or low in the "points down" dept., in IDPA's case), and it's frustrating trying to learn to shoot faster. In NRA Highpower, I hold Master classification, so you'd think I'd be very satisfied with my performance. Not so. When I shot HP more often, I agonized over the fact that I still shot 8s in the offhand, I couldn't clean the 300 rapid, and never seemed to shoot above 195 at the 600. Mistakes seem costlier, and improvement is harder when you're at that level. The point I'm trying to make is that in the shooting sports (and others, I would expect), you will always want to do better, and always have specific areas where you could improve to accomplish that. Identify goals. Devise training tools to aid in accomplishing them. Train until you achieve them, or, if the program doesn't work, revise it and try again. You are highly unlikely to ever be completely un-frustrated. You are also highly unlikely to have no fun at all shooting IPSC. Now a practical pointer for a quick fix: I always think about every match I shoot in, and what mistakes I made that cost me time. Usually it's a gun handling issue, so when I go home, I recreate the setup, and practice it dry. I've improved my draw, turning draw, reload, reload while kneeling, target transitions, and engaging in tactical sequence this way. I make fewer mistakes, and I'm finishing higher at matches, even though I don't get to do any live fire practice between matches. There are also some live fire drills posted in "tips for improvement" that are supposed to help you shoot faster without losing accuracy. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Hey all, Just got my first shotgun...now what do I do with it? Mine has adjustable ghost ring sights, and an 18 1/2 inch cylinder bore barrel. I assume I'll shoot mostly shot out of it, but that I might use some slugs as well. The question is: Do I get some rifled slugs and zero the thing like a rifle? Or do I get different shotshells and go through this tedious "patterning" process I've read about? Both? If I do "pattern" the gun, and it patterns poorly, what do I do then to improve it? Thanks for your help, DogmaDog

Patrick, Thanks for the info. I went to the store last night and picked up two boxes of ammo to try: PMC "Heavy Field Load" 1 1/4 oz of #4 over 3 3/4 dram, for $5 per box. and, PMC "Quail and Dove" (or was it "heavy dove"), with some #6 shot and 3 1/4 dram charge. I figure that would edge out the typical #7 1/2, 3 dram load. ($4 per box). I'll try to blast some steel this weekend and confirm the results we'd expect. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Rich, Yeah, I guess you're right. I was sorta thinking highpower competition, where you need a 1 minute gun or smaller to run with the big dogs. Also, the point about shifting political winds was a good one (though don't know how the climate is in the Philippines). Anyway, have fun with your new gun, when you get it. Semper Fi, DogmaDog P.S. Pjb, is that a Benelli M1 field gun, or some other model? Sounds like a fun gun to have.

Eric (and others), Thanks! I'm glad it helped you out. If you didn't notice, the rifle marksmanship manual comes from Quantico's Docrine Division homepage. Within the last 5 years or so, they've undertaken to write several books on doctrine, written in English, without technical details, and they've done an excellent job. There is also a "pistol marksmanship" manual from the same page (which is as good, but probably more common knowledge than in the rifle manual), and for a touch of Zen and mental preparation, Marine style, you can check out "Warfighting" for philosophy of the nature of war and how we should approach it (with application for the rest of us dealing with conflict in general). Go here: https://www.doctrine.usmc.mil/ and look for "Marine Corps Doctrinal Publications" and "Marine Corps Warfighting and Reference Publications" on the menu at left. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

My DCM service rifle has a 4 lb lead weight in the stock, and 2 1/2 lbs of lead tire weights in the handguard. I think I'd probably "get the lead out" before shooting it in 3 gun. I'd also get a larger rear sight than 0.040, but I don't see the heavy barrel as a problem. It's a trade off...heavier guns give faster shot recovery, but are harder to run fast with. 9.5 lbs isn't too heavy, if the rifle is balanced well (IMO) Semper Fi, DogmaDog

ian G, I just shoot FMJ or CMJ (complete metal jacket) bullets, because they're the cheapest available factory ammo, and I don't reload. Many who reload use lead bullets, because they're even cheaper. When I was on the Marine rifle team, I talked to the pistol team reloader, and they used jacketed hollow points (except for hardball competition, where they used hardball (FMJ)...duh. The guy explained that JHPs (at least these ones) were made by pouring lead into a mold with the bullet base on the bottom, so gas bubbles trapped in the liquid metal rose to the nose of the bullet, where they were drilled out after the jacket was put on (to make the point hollow), resulting in a more uniform density and mass distribution in the finished bullet, and therefore greater accuracy for those 50 yard shots with 1911 service pistols (we're talking a 1/4" difference in group size, or so). So you can get pretty deep into it and shave those groups down by a few fractions of an inch, or you can just get cheap bullets that feed reliably in your gun and just go shooting. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Patrick, Thanks! I'll have to try to track some down. Are you describing a turkey load (and are turkeys really that tough??? I keep seeing ads for turkey ammo that they describe as though it could take down rhinos). What I bought was a bulk pack at Walmart...100 shells for $15.88. Federal multi-purpose 3 dram, 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2 shot, 2 3/4" shells that are only 2 1/4" when you load them. Maybe it's a good thing I got a gun capable of shooting 3 1/2" shells...no chance of screwing up by loading too much shell in my gun...but then again, I read labels on boxes of ammo, and on barrels of guns, so I don't think it would happen. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

I'm no pro, but I'd say that the logistics involved with rifle shooting are far more formidable than with shotgunning. -You need a long range for a rifle, and most indoor ranges won't allow you to shoot them through their backstops -You need to reload for rifles to achieve maximum accuracy, or buy expensive match ammo. With SGs it doesn't matter so much -A good rifle is more expensive than a good shotgun, probably by a factor of about 2. So you'll probably get more live-fire trigger time with a shotgun, especially until you've worked out the logistics of a rifle. And if live-fire trigger time is what makes you happy (why else would you be here? ), then get the shotgun first. As discussed on another thread, rifle marksmanship seems to be disappearing as a mastered discipline. Buying a .22 target rifle and shooting small targets at shorter ranges can go a long way in developing marksmanship...but .22s cost money too! Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Eric, No need to shudder. Marine recruits spend a whole week just dry firing ALL DAY LONG from the 4 basic positions, surpervised by a Primary Marksmanship Instructor. It's about 60 hours of "snapping in" before they ever fire a live round, and takes place after several hours of classes about marksmanship. By the time they hit the firing line, they have the basics down pretty well. My knees and elbows were so sore during snap-in week. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Jhg, Hmmm. Well, it did come with a "limiter plug" in the standard 4 round mag, which reduced capacity to 2 (supposedly...I didn't try it). The +2 extension is 6" long, so I figured it really would only hold +2, but since the 2 3/4" shells are only 2 1/4" long, I'm able to get 7 in there. Certainly nothing to be upset about in my book! Just made me wonder if shell length is measured before the crimp, or what. Learning the lingo for regular pistol cartridges was tough enough, now I have to figure out "drams" and shot size and all this other weird stuff. Ack! Also, I did find a 4 round side saddle carrier for it on line (tac star, I think?) I think I'll hold off for now, just so you all have a chance to run out and buy your own Novas so you can be like me Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Man, I'm gonna have to get into a 3 gun match. Kelly is right on, but everything he's said is kinda "duh...I learned that in boot camp" Marine recruits shoot out to 500 yards in their initial qualification, with stock M16A2s, and regular NATO ammo. Boot Camp rifles are pretty beat up and rattly, but any one of them is sufficient to clean the course with. In another thread Kelly mentioned use of a shooting sling, which can help a lot in prone and sitting positions. Shooting NRA highpower will definitely help with the long range stuff. You can get the Marine Corps' manual on rifle marksmanship here: https://www.doctrine.quantico.usmc.mil/mcrp/htm/mcrp301A.htm Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Hahaha, Ron, doing a lot of tuning to get a pistol to hit at 3 or 4 yards is pretty comical. I just shot an IDPA match with 2 targets inside of 3 yards. We had to engage in "tactical sequence" (1-2-1), and it took me about 3 seconds to turn, draw, and fire the 4 shots and hit the -0 zones of both targets. Do I have some secret double tap technique? Do I have a special method of point shooting? The answer is NO. All four shots were aimed. I didn't wait to get a nice clean sight picture like I would at 20 yards, and all I was really conscious of was seeing the back end of the slide superimposed on the target, but that was "what I needed to see", right? One thing we're taught about marksmanship fundamentals is how perfect sight alignment and sight picture should look. What you will learn later, and only through experience (and I'm only gradually learning myself) is to instinctively gauge exactly HOW perfect you need the sight picture to be to make the shot you want to make. At close range, you watch the sights until they are acceptable, and let the shot go...you don't wait until they're perfect, and you can still call the shot. I started thinking along these lines before I first read this forum, and I think it is what has been summed up as "seeing what you need to see" in several threads on this board. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Well, I went ahead and bought the Nova pump on Friday. 18.5" barrel, ghost ring sights, and I got a 2 round mag extension. Out the door for about $300, which is about equal to what I'd have to pay to get any other shotgun to a similar setup. I haven't shot it yet, but so far I like it a lot (for whatever that's worth ) It does look like it will be hard to impossible to get a side saddle on it, though. However, I like the longer pump handle, because it allows you to grip the forend closer in to your body. I also have taken a liking to the appearance of the thing (it grows on you). It looks sort of like an H.R. Giger design (he's the artist who drew stuff for "Aliens") I'm sorta confused about one thing, though. It came with a 4 round mag, to which I added a 2 round extension, but I can put 7 2.75" shells in the thing!? For some reason, the 2.75" shells I bought are only 2.25" long. I don't get it. I'm gonna have to take a course on shotgun math now. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

I wasn't aware that any of the features you're looking for are subject to a ban, but look at: Remington 1100/1187 Winchester X2 Benelli M1 Those seem to be the most popular for 3 gun. Browning is another choice. If they don't come with pistol grips, you can replace the stock with something from Brownell's. You can also get mag extensions for Remingtons there, and maybe for the others. Biggest difference I guess is that the Win and Rem are gas operated (heavy, lighter recoil, somewhat less reliable, according to reputation) while the Ben is recoil operated (light, heavier recoil, more reliable). I'm a complete newbie to shotguns, and just bought my first--a Benelli Nova pump action. So I can't really offer any first hand advice. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Benelli has a factory made 2 rnd extension for the Nova. I don't know about side saddles...I think a short (4 or 5 rounds) one would be necessary because of the extended forend grip, but it can't be THAT hard to fit one. Why would the Nova be better for big boys, or potentially more injurious to you than an 870? I'll have to ask about a "police" model. If it isn't any more expensive, then maybe that's the route to go. I went shopping at the local MC Sports, and told the guy what I was looking for, and he got all uppity with me. "Oh, you want an ASSAULT shotgun?!" "We don't sell those here, because they're designed to KILL people" and when another salesman came by, he says to him "This guy wants an ASSAULT shotgun!" Given the number of Glocks, S&Ws, and Kimbers in his pistol cabinet, I could hardly understand why an "assault shotgun" would be distasteful. But I didn't even consider asking for the "police model". Thanks, DogmaDog

Hey all, I'm completely new to shotguns. I've fired 9 shells total. So how are sights on shotguns used in a 3 gun format? Do you align the sights, and focus on the front just like a rifle or pistol, or do you focus on the target as in clay shooting or bird hunting? Does it matter what type of sights you have (bead vs. rifle)? Thanks, DogmaDog

Hey, just got the results back from my match on Saturday. I won the shotgun match in "pump" division, against 9 shooters, and my time was only a second or so off the auto shooter's times. Yay me Anyway, I keep going around and around with this shotgun choice thing. I'm not ready to spend enough for a full-on limited gun (auto, etc.). I want a pump. The Nova looks pretty good. Add a $60 mag extension and a side saddle and it's ready to go. An 870 is classic. I could get the Express Synthetic with 18" barrel, add a mag extension and express sights, and be ready to go. Or I could get an 870 with 21" turkey barrel, 3 round mag extension, and express sights, and be ready to go with a slightly longer, 8 round gun (vs. 7). May need to get chokes for any of them. Don't know if the 18 inchers are even tapped for screw in chokes. Nova is cheapest because it comes with ghost rings already. 870 looks cooler (IMO), rusts easier, and would require a little more work (apparently you have to drill out some indentations in the mag tube that prevent the use of mag extensions, and I'd have to mount the AO sights). After the sights and the mag tube, the 870 would be about $50 more, + any professional gunsmith fee or tool costs. Any thoughts, opinions, or recommendations? Thanks, DogmaDog

I just shot my first "shotgun side match" at an IDPA match last weekend. The course was 3 shots through each of 3 ports at 3 arrays of (you guessed it) 3 poppers at around 10 to 15 yards. Pretty easy shooting. Started with 3 shells loaded, then at the second port had to load shells singly and fire, and then at the 3rd port could load all 3 or go singly. I shot a police officer's 870 with bead sight, and really got a kick out of it. Now I'm looking for my own shotgun. Probably will get a Nova Pump with ghost ring sights...going for about $250 now. How do you like your 870 with express sights? That's my second choice right now. Anyway, we used birdshot loads (#7 or so), and carried guns muzzle down, action open to and from the line. After that match, I would practice reloading, and target transitions while pumping. Semper fi, Dogmadog

There was an earlier thread about reaction time here: http://www.brianenos.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard...=5&topic=55 But basically there are two issues here: 1) How quickly do you respond to the buzzer, and 2) How long does it take to move your hand from surrender to the timer/gun. (1) can be tested with the little online tests from the linked thread, or with the "finger on the trigger" method (2) can be deceptive if getting TO the gun faster actually results in a slower draw. Given that, I'd say it's probably better to practice actually drawing and dry firing a shot with a par time set on the timer for 1 second, or whatever. Semper Fi, DogmaDog

Ron said: "This [shooting in tactical sequence] becomes horribly inefficient (as far as getting two hits on each as quickly as possible) and it becomes almost comical when shooting around props." The tactical sequence rule is based on the premise that it is better to shoot each of your assailants once before you shoot any of them twice...get one bullet in each bad guy as fast as possible, and then mop up those that aren't neutralized with a second shot. However, in IDPA when cover is available, you should expose yourself to one target at a time, and shoot the total number of required shots on it. If you are engaging 3 targets from around cover, you shoot 2, 2, 2, and only lean out far enough to see/shoot the left or right-most target remaining. If you are shooting 3 targets in the open, then you shoot 1, 1, 2, 1, 1. So it sounds like your club is doing something weird if they make you shoot in tac sequence from around cover. It does take a little longer to get all 6 shots, but presumeably it takes less time to get one on each than by firing pairs. It is an annoying rule sometimes, and easy to forget. I had a stage Saturday with 2 targets at 3 and 4 yards. Start at ATM machine, turn, draw, and engage in tac sequence. My first string I draw, blast T-2 twice, transition, hit T-1 once, realize I made a procedural, pause, then hit T-1 again. 3 seconds. + a 3 second procedural. That's gonna hurt. Anyway, I think the IDPA tactics are generally sound, but the sport is probably still new enough that stage designers haven't yet figured out how to make stages where you can have broad freedom to chose different courses of action yet still remain within the rules. As for mag changes...I practice both tactical and slide lock reloads at home. The night before a match, just practice the kind you're gonna do at the match tomorrow a couple dozen times, and you probably won't trip up. Semper Fi, DogmaDog