Sin-ster

MG 124 JHP's are extremely consistent in their weight. If you get one that's more than .5 grains off (and even that much would be very unlucky for you), arb the accuracy of the scale. In fact, my own bullet got a scale tossed out of a match this year, as the chrono officer used the same projectiles and knew for a fact that 1.2 grains off was WAY too much. (It helped that we were the second small squad to chrony on staff Friday, and no one had hit their declared bullet weight yet...)

It certainly doesn't look like rust, but then again... it doesn't look like gilding metal, either. Could be oil or grease that got cooked on during the test firing-- especially if the whole gun is slathered. I've seen it on AR barrel extensions quite often, in much the same pattern... and sometimes so dark that you'd swear it WAS rust. Run a tight patch soaked with Breakfree down the thing and see what color it comes out. Rust stands out on the patches as flagrant, red and stomach churning. If you spray the barrel first and let it soak some, the patch alone should pull a ton of it out if it's rust. If not, it'll be in there until you shoot it out.

All 3 of my 9 Pro's were the same, comparatively speaking. They were all notably better than the non-Pro MiM sears, though...

Your stock Max Lengths match what mine was for the 124's almost precisely. Your KKM, however, is roughly .06 deeper. Crazy. I wonder if that is the factor that's leading to the variance in performance with that load, or if it's just a coincidence?

I spoke with a gentleman the other day who was shocked to hear just how many local matches we have in the area, as he had looked "everywhere" and not found mention of them. And this dude was a "firearms TV show" addict, according to our conversation. For whatever reason, folks apparently aren't even going to the USPSA.org site to find local clubs in their area. Imagine the exposure that a plug here and there during these shows would create... I'm definitely on board with the TV idea. I look good on camera, after all...

Why, or what, did you see different in OAL between the OEM and KKM barrel. 1.140 & 1.125 difference ???? Just curious why you made this change between the two? I like to load as long as the chamber will allow, minus a .010 cushion (based on the consistency in OAL coming out of my press). I'll mock up some dummy rounds and make sure they're good in the magazines and under manual cycling, then begin to work up the load based on that length. I use the fired case/fresh projectile method of determining the chamber's max OAL, and then typically resize a case, press in a projectile at .005 over my determined max, and slowly sink it lower to confirm my measurements. (Redding Competition Seating Die makes this very, very easy.) Simply put, the chamber was tighter and shorter (as I assumed it would be on a match barrel) on the KKM than it was on the factory unit, by about .015-.020 (I can't recall exactly, but I likely rounded down a couple of thousandths for a prettier final number). I of course tested out the velocity changes of shortening the load up in the factory barrel, and saw no real difference at all. No pressure signs, no hard extraction, etc-- just made sure everything was safe. I've shot... Wow... 25k through the KKM at this point, of that exact load, with no issues; some of the brass has gone through at least 8 times at this point, no less, and still holds primers just fine. I like to be as long as (safely) possible for a couple of reasons. First and foremost, I've always read that longer is better for reliable feeding. Second, having taken some instruction from SERIOUS precision rifle shooters, they were all keen on loading right up to (and sometimes right ON) the rifling, it just stuck. In all of my 9mm handguns, I use some variation of this exact load... and they all claim at (or above) the best accuracy reports I can find for each pistol.

That bugs the crap out of me, so I do the "gun rug hand shuffle" to make sure it doesn't happen when I bag or gear up. Probably looks like I'm playing 3 Card Monte with my pistol, but hey-- whatever it takes.

I'll just toss this in there without pictures, because I'm relatively useless I suppose... My load has always been: MG 124 JHP 4.2 grains N320 1.140" in the factory barrel; 1.125" in the KKM .376 crimp I never got around to shooting my 9 Pro from rest with the factory barrel, so I have no comparison point. I can say that off hand groups improved immediately and visibly with the KKM, so... it made a difference. However, I was not having problems with the factory unit-- as in, not 4"+ groups at 25 yards... Before I benched the KKM, I took a class with Manny Bragg. I had him shoot it, off hand at a pretty crappy target for grouping, @ 20 yards. He shot 4 of 5 rounds into one sub-1" clover leaf, and cursed at a flier that stretched the group to about 2.5". Since then, when I'm actually shooting from a proper rest at a target that makes it easy (on me) to keep the same POA, I've managed 1.5" several times @ 25 yards. Manny is notably better than me... We shot 99-33 several months ago at one of my local matches-- Merle's Standards, with a 35 yard target. I called 8 Alpha, a Charlie, a possible Delta, and 2 Mikes at said target. I scored 8 Alpha, 2 Delta, and 2 Mikes. (Got going too fast at the end of both strings...) Pretty sure the extra Delta was a bad shot call, and not the gun... Now, what does that mean? Well, prior to reading Trident's posts about basically the same configuration of barrel and load, I was convinced that KKM + 124 grain MG JHP + N320 was the way to go for these guns. And in general, that may still be true. (I know of 2 other shooters reporting almost identical results as I get with that combo.) However, it seems pretty clear that some of these guns have problems to some degree or another. And that's why I think we're all waiting on the edge of our seats to see if the APEX stuff coming out will fix some of these guns. Still, I'm pretty positive that the VAST majority of these things are not inherently inaccurate given the right set of components. ETA-- Trident, I get 130-131 PF out of my gun with the 124 MG JHP's and 4.2 grains of N320, over and over again. At FL State Championship, my ES was *3 FPS*. Something may be going on with your gun or barrel...

That's... the Pro, basically. Only... Well, not. The slide is actually HEAVIER on the Pro than the L-- you'd have to ask the guys who insisted on re-designing it why that's the case... I haven't heard of any L's having stress failures or other issues that might make sense... The sights aren't adjustable, but they are FO-- about as "competition oriented" as you see in most cases on factory guns. The Pro Sear isn't really aftermarket, but it's notably different than the sears you'll find in the non-Pro M&Ps. Without dropping names or wasting too much breath, suffice it to say that the platform is everything that it's ever going to be, barring a few small revisions here and there-- hopefully not in the Gen 4 Glock trend, where they actually cause problems initially...

Good stuff. On top of everything else, I was trying to stay on my toes for the moment he realized how far past the fault line he was (I figured when he looked up and saw the plates). Having just read the "Uprange of the RO" thread, it was fresh on my mind... This is most certainly my first encounter with 10.5.17, outside of the classroom. (I guess most folks are using barricades!) As with the other rules (thus far), I think once was enough to make my response as RO a natural one and not one where I'm sitting there "thinking"...

I was hoping you'd find this! The first thing I did was to jump to the Rulebook, and 2.3.1 was worded as I remembered. Now I'm 100% positive that the fault line was over 26 feet from the steel, but the paper targets on the right extended to the back of the berm as well. Otherwise, no shooter would have ever blundered so far over the line-- and it was that extra travel that created the situation. As the rule and your post suggests, a low wall there (or perhaps even a single barrel to better indicate the end of the shooting area) would have solved the problem without changing the actual layout of the CoF. I think it was a situation that no one really saw coming-- certainly not myself, and most likely not the stage design/set-up team. I certainly learned from the experience, though-- as an RO and a potential stage designer myself. As you taught my RO class, I could actually hear you talking about the generic 10.5 "ugh" DQ as I was thinking about the incident after the match. Subsequently, because he was not right on top of the steel, that would have been my call as well I believe had there been no time to issue the warning-- fire the shot, call for a stop, issue the DQ. But I obviously agree that simply putting up a physical barricade (as it was very much possible) would have been the best solution.

If you call STOP! before they fire, and issue a DQ, it will have to be under the generic 10.5. Unsafe Gun Handling, rather than the specific 10.5.17. Personally, if I completely lost track and overran the fault lines and got closer than 23 feet to steel that I was about to shoot, I would rather have the RO DQ me for 10.5 before I've fired the shot. I'd rather be safe, unhurt, and helping the squads/match for the rest of the match. I agree though that it could be a way to fish for a free reshoot. A better call from the RO would be a safety warning "You are too close to steel" when the gun starts coming up to the target. (See 8.6.1.) This wasn't a single step foot fault-- he was way across the line. Best guess, he was probably 20-23 feet from the steel-- and especially in the heat of the moment, it was hard to tell. That's a really good idea with the fault lines for the steel. If I'm ROing an L2, and stick to one stage, I'll walk off the distances so I know when to stop someone-- but at a Local, it never occurred to me. ESPECIALLY in a situation like this, where it didn't seem like it'd be a likely situation. In fact what you suggest under 8.6.1 is what happened. As the shooter was conducting his final reload before shooting the steel, he realized that he had overshot the fault line and started to back up. However, probably under the stress of the situation, he stopped about 6 feet SHORT of the shooting area and took a flat footed shooting stance as he was gassing his pistol back up. The RO on the score sheet issued a warning like the one you suggest, and he backed up even further, across the fault line anew. I couldn't tell if he was actually going to try to engage from there, or his distance from the steel, so I was definitely waiting for the reload to finish before doing the same. It definitely froze me at first-- I was running Procedurals off in my head and watching his finger during the reload. That's why we have two ROs, I suppose! Now had the guy NOT needed a fresh mag at the end, when do you give the warning? As he transitions towards the steel, or while he's still shooting the paper (and has the chance to not incur a couple Procedurals, thereby effecting his score on the stage)? Obviously if one shot goes off, it's a "STOP"-- even if we have to break out the measuring tape and issue a Reshoot, I'm personally not comfortable with risking it...

Specifically-- do you stop a competitor before they engage the offending piece of steel, or after the first shot is fired? We talk a lot about not making decisions based on assumed intent-- but at the same time, the first shot might be the one that gets someone hurt in this particular case. I can't find any provision for stopping a shooter before he earns the DQ, and then issuing a Reshoot-- unless you want to stretch RO Interference, I suppose... (But that opens a HUGE door for gaming free Reshoots...) Here's what happened to get me thinking about it: The stage was approximately 30-35 yards long from the start position to the rear berm. Along the right side are Metric targets with No Shoots closer to the shooting area, requiring forward movement of the shooter in order to successfully engage everything. The front fault line is roughly 20 yards from the rear/start position, and there is a 5-plate rack at the base of the rear berm. The very first shooter of the squad blows right by the front line while still engaging the paper on the right side. RO is counting off Procedurals (5), shooter stops to conduct his final mag change. Visibly, he is probably inside the 23 feet in relation to the plates... but not so close that it will be flagrantly obvious to him. If he doesn't realize his mistake, when do you hollar "STOP"? When he takes aim on the plates? Puts his finger in the trigger guard? Before he gets that close, in case he breaks a shot anyway? After the first shot? What happened was... well, odd-- but safe. I meant to walk off the actual distance of the rack, but got distracted and forgot...

Different eyes definitely prefer different things. In my case, it's a sheer matter of repetition at this point. Tens upon tens of thousands of rounds with the configuration I'm still using.

The front blade is WAY too fat for me, and I dislike that massive Fiber rod they use. I can't recall, but wasn't there something about problematic POA/POI with the heights they use-- specifically with the 124 and 147 grain bullets that most of us are loading for them? Dunno, but after shooting Warren/Sevigny's on a Glock for so long... Every pistol I own that will actually see some serious use wears a set, or something similar to them.

For future reference, in case someone searches this thread out for info in the future-- I'm guessing you had insufficient over travel after the sear released the striker, preventing it from catching while cycling at live fire speeds. You must have been right on the borderline if you couldn't replicate it with an empty gun. For those interested, Randy talks about this specifically (and how to solve it) in the FSS Install video that APEX has up on YouTube. Even if you don't have that specific kit, it's worth a watch to learn something about the pistol. Glad you got it sorted out, OP.

I can't really speak to the accuracy of the .40 platforms, although I was fairly certain the problems were almost exclusively in the 9mm. I can say they don't exist for the .45 either, as my 4.5" shoots STUPID groups with crummy factory stuff.

Oh, so very done-- I had no idea that such a thing existed. That's precisely what I said that I wished existed-- the basic factory profile, but not crap metal/surface treated. Sweet.

Two things to throw out there... 1) You are probably still suffering from a semi (or fully) conscious focus on being safe. Knowing that moving to your left while reloading has the potential for a safety infraction and DQ, you end up being overly careful, overly focused and trying overly hard to be safe. Chances are that you're further from breaking the 180 under those conditions than you are doing a standing reload. When you practice at home, no such risk exists and you can execute them flawlessly. This is good; it breeds good habits and a safe shooting environment. Eventually, you'll get used to what I like to call "running with a loaded gun", and all sorts of previously odd or stressful movements will begin to come more naturally to you. Just takes repetition-- in live fire practice and matches, most specifically. 2) Some folks will have quicker first steps and quicker feet than others. That's physiological fact. Picture your portly neighbor's track start compared to Usain Bolt. The World Record holder is probably 2.5 loooooooong strides off the line before our rotund example has even planted his first foot. Conduct the reload as early as possible, for sure-- but don't get hung up on "one step, two steps, no steps" etc. What you'll end up doing is wasting time on the movement itself, as opposed to picking up extra time on your reload and being ready to shoot earlier. Getting faster in this area is all about hand speed. In my experience, your hands seem to want to slow down when your feet come into the equation. (I STILL suffer from the same problem you report to some degree, and it's basically the entire focus of my dry fire at present...) Also, be aware that as you go through more mags and start reaching around/behind yourself for fresh ones, reloading while moving is going to become even more challenging. It's in those cases where you might actually want to "ease into" your first step so the whole of the equation (gun, hands, mags on belt) aren't bouncing all over the place as you try to put them all together. Or better yet-- work on that hand speed so that the mag is out and up near the well before your feet really get going!

I was taught to do this by one of the old hands WAY before I even took the RO course. Empty penalty boxes get an 'X' through them (big and oogly), anything that falls into that box gets circled to alert the stats officer to penalties there. I don't go so far as to cross out empty columns, though... But I do circle the total number of recorded scoring hits to illustrate that they match my count-- or write in that number on every score sheet and circle it as well, right of the "Total Hit" boxes where it would appear had it been printed. Then again, I sign and initial appropriate places on the sheet during Club Matches, and write in the rules by which Procedurals or DQs were issued. I don't see any benefit to anyone by being lazy just because it's a Level 1... A lot of these RO-focused threads have taught me one thing, augmented by my personal experiences. Some folks make good ROs and belong behind the timer, some make good Scoring RO's and belong behind the clipboard/palm. (Some of course are rockstars at both...) And some are better off not helping unless it's completely necessary...

As others have started to note, the first place the sport has to grow is at the administrative club level and in regards to the facilities. More shooters without more people to organize and manage matches is simply not going to work-- and we can't continuously expand the size of current matches that are already pushing a "max capacity". Here's an experience I had recently while traveling to see family and shoot a few matches while I was in the area. Here in SE Louisiana, I thought I had it pretty good being able to shoot a USPSA match every Sunday, and a Steel Match two Saturdays out of the month. My average drive time is about an hour and fifteen minutes-- made in the shade. My family lives in the Tampa Bay area in Florida. I remember checking out their clubs online about a year ago and realizing that I could shoot even MORE often there, with less total drive time. Odd, considering the "big city" nature of that Metro Area. While I was there, my brother-in-law invited me out to a practice match run by one of the clubs closest to the place where I was staying; they host one every Tuesday and Friday night. When I showed up, I was absolutely blown away. These were not Standards and Speed Shoots-- 3 out of the 4 stages were Field Courses of 20-30 rounds each, complete with walls, ports, poppers and plates. At least 40 (and I think closer to 60) people had shown up on a Tuesday, many driving through rush hour city traffic to make it... I realized that what REALLY made the whole thing possible was 1) a willing facility to host the event, 2) LIGHTS and 3) people to organize, set up and operate the match. Because it was 20 minutes away and I was on vacation, I had no problem showing up early and helping to set up a couple of stages. Here at home, it's just not possible/practical for me to spend 2.5 hours on the road on a Saturday to set up, then 2.5 on Sunday to shoot. Nor can I be part of the organizing/administrative body for those clubs for the same reasons. Here in SE Louisiana, we shoot at one commercial range that simply cannot afford to close off 5-6 bays more than once or twice a month on the weekends. We shoot at a privately maintained/club operated range that is more willing, but understaffed in terms of match volunteers. We shoot at two police ranges who are gracious enough to let us use their facilities-- but again, not dominate them throughout the week. And we shoot in a sand pit way off in the cut that is an absolute BEAR on those who run the match, due to the terrain and size issues that effect set up. None of them can support night matches, so shooting during the week is out for that reason as well. First and foremost, more facilities are almost required to truly reach the growth rates that the OP wants to see. Places that are designed almost exclusively for shooting sports, where closing down to host matches is not an issue; if they are set up for night shoots during the week, all the better. Ideally, they would be centrally located in regards to the local population so that the largest number of people can attend without blowing a tank of gas or an entire day just traveling. Next, and equally important, is the need for folks to host and run those matches in their free time. Needless to say, some people just aren't going to have the extra time on their hands-- work, family, whatever. Those that do will have limited time at best-- time they probably SHOULD be spending with family, or just maintaining their own personal sanity... Incentives, even if it's just the cost of their travel, would probably go a long way making it more viable for a larger group of people. Ideally, a USPSA funded and organized effort to grow the sport is really the only solution for rapid and controlled expansion. New ranges require not only land and construction, they also require insurance and often a lot of paperwork to clear the local governments-- all things that large organizational bodies are vastly better at accomplishing than a small collection of individuals. Similarly, creating incentives for people to come up and spend their time working on/at/after a match is difficult at the local level, but would be far easier to accomplish with a standardized set of practices that applied across all clubs. What that boils down to... is money. Money we spend already on the organizing body, Nationals, what have you-- and on the club level, on expanding/improving the range, buying new props, and so forth. So it really boils down to EXTRA/more money-- and where that would come from is beyond me... Invest in Power Ball tickets, maybe?

Ahh, so the click is as you let back out after taking most of the initial weight off the pull. Good video. That's the exact same part in the trigger travel where the grittiness I always feel after dropping in the Hard Sear occurs. But I've never heard/felt it "click" after letting off-- and the very first kit I installed, I spent a few hours doing exactly what you were in that video to try to soften up the feel. (Eventually the parts mated up a little better and most of the gunkiness went away. The owner shot it a few thousand times and it was buttery smooth after that.) At that point in the travel, the loop is engaging the sear and the striker claw is sliding up the back of it as well. I'm guessing that if you pull the slide off, disengage the sear disconnect lever and work the trigger, you don't get that click or even the same heavy feel there? (It would take a seriously notched up trigger bar loop to make that happen, especially if you've tried different Hard Sears.) That narrows it down to the striker/sear engagement, which is also most definitely where the initial grittiness comes from. Without handling the gun, it's hard to speculate which of the two is actually making the noise. I wish I would have known about it last week-- I was in FL (St. Pete) for quite a long period of time and would have liked to check it out!

I do not. My doctor recommended a beer or two. Not exactly helpful if I am going to be shooting, going for a job interview, or working on something delicate at work... Improving my grip/forearm strength and limiting the amount of sugar and caffeine have made the greatest impact. Sucks because it is getting slowly worse and I am only 33. I am sure there will come a point where I need to look to a prescription to manage it, but I am hoping that is far off. Do you find that it's the worst when you're doing VERY precise things-- using tweezers, trying to gently and precisely cut something with a VERY sharp knife, etc? I ask because that's when mine really comes out, barring a rush of adrenaline or nerves...

When I actually had real take-up on my competition gun, I had all of the slack out of the trigger by the time it sounds like you're just starting to engage it. (Once the muzzle was oriented towards the target, my finger was on the trigger face. During press out, I was taking up slack.) Now that just touching the trigger takes up the slack, I find myself doing the exact same thing that you are-- and my draws definitely aren't slow in the grand scheme of things... IOW, it sounds like you've naturally arrived at the desired result...

Anyone who has ever shot a Glock and then switched to another platform (or vice versa) can understand where you're coming from. Only in those cases, it's a matter of the sights aligning too high or too low, due to the grip angle of the Glock compared to (basically) everything else on the market. (Small aside-- a lot of VERY good Glock shooters, including formers like Sevigny, attribute the extra cocking of the support hand to better recoil management on that platform...) There are two ways to accomplish what Brian is talking about in the above post, with basically every gun you'll ever own, or even just shoot. 1) What Ghost Dog suggests-- work at it until the sights align naturally and perfectly, and your grip (or in your case overall stance) is neutral. 2) Start making modifications to the grip. (Not always a surefire solution, as it seems like you're finding out on your own...) The first option takes time, commitment and concerted effort-- mostly in dry fire until it becomes second nature, but in live fire as well so that you can maintain that alignment and neutrality with recoil thrown into the mix. The second option, especially for someone in your line of work and with the proper tools at their disposal, has the potential to be the shorter and easier road... Until you pick up another pistol and have to do it again. And again. And again. Follow the first path and you'll be able to shoot basically any handgun you EVER pick up with impressive skill. The learning curve to accomplish proper alignment/grip/stance with each new firearm will be shortened, since you've mastered it for one gun already. Follow the second path and you'll have trouble every time you take an unfamiliar pistol to the line. It may never be a problem depending on your chosen sport/shooting discipline... until you simply cannot remove more material, or find that you actually need to add some... Quite honestly, a combination of BOTH options is almost certainly the best solution of all. Perfect technique (the greatest part of the equation) and then tune the gear to make it easier on you to accomplish with consistency, repeatability and comfort. The best Open and Limited shooters in the world grind on their grips in all sorts of different ways-- but the best Production shooters in the world aren't allowed.