Vlad

Oh my god, Vince. That is just horrible. I assume that the pay is also slightly skewed upwards? To make you jelous, my club charges $190 per year which includes 24/7 indoor range and dawn to dusk outdoor rifle/pistol/shotgun range, and no per hour bulls**t. In theory there are another $120 per year, which you can avoid with 12 "work" hours, but if you give blood twice a year or help out cleaning the range, or even help set up and run your IPSC match (LOL) those go away (I ended up with 27 work hours last year). Oh yeah and I reload in my garage and my 9mm costs me about $65/1000. I suspect you are to old to be adopted, but I am sure a lot of us would bring you over as an indentured servant, if it was legal. After all why roll you own ammo if you can get someone to do it for you Vlad

Ronin, gun buy gone bad Way of the Gun, car "chase" early on, and final gun fight Boondock Saints, almost every scene, but the specially the Irish gun runner one and the "There was a firefight!" scene Pulp Fiction, cleaning the car Unforgiven, shooting from the top of rocks and counting shots Saving Private Ryan, the beach Hunt for Red October, all of it, but the missle room scene was good Aliens, the robot guns Heat, the bank robbery but even more the coffee talk All that easilly comes to mind

One of my good friends has been shooting one in production for about a year. As I have a CZ we had the chance to do some side by side comparisons. The grip shape is a bit different being somewhat deeper under the beaver tail. The internals are quite different, which is the result of the safety location and the addition of a decocker. The Baby Eagle ergonomics might actually be a bit better, as the grip shape allows for easier access to the mag release. The slide release is also slightly extended, and that is one of the often heard complains about the CZ. The slide mounted safety actually makes it easier to rack the slide, as the inside frame rails don't leave you much slide left to pull on. The gun shoots better then I can, at point of aim, and the recoil is about the same as a CZ with factory ammo. No problems in a few 1000s of factory 9mm. Hope this helps Vlad

Oh Vince, we don't need any rope or trees. I think the local traditions involve rocks and sharp swords. I am such a sucker for local traditions. Vlad

The news says DNA identity confirmed. And remember that we nailed its spawns before so we should have enough DNA material. Not a bad news story to wake up to, huh? Vlad

So what you are all saying is that "It's the indian, not the arrow, but, dude, we just can't stop drooling over those SV bows and we just have to buy them. Then we get to make our own arrow with the Apache 1050 and using 200gr arrow heads. And then we have to get the special quiver and the mocasins with the heavy thread and don't even get me started on the belt thing. Would you believe I started by wearing a rope made of horse hair?" In all seriousness I am just being jelous. Currently I am shooting my CZ in production or limited-10 depending on the mood, using a cheap kydex holdster. Vlad

I hate that my dog was limping and now I worry about his hips. Vlad

Both the 9 and 40 will be factory CZ's. I use Clays for 9 115's but I didnt find any data for using it with 147, as well not making major in 40 with 180s (with Hodgdon published data). Currently I have been using #5 for 147s with some success. The data for TG looks nice, but I have no experience with it. It also looks like a very economical option. Keep in mind that I am not that good that the powder will make a much of a difference to my scores. Vlad

I am relatively new at reloading and I would like to get about 8# of powder shipped so I can save some money. I currently shoot 9mm 147's but soon I might get a .40 and I would like to make sure that whatever powder I get would work nicely in both. I am not worried if it is not ideal for either as long as it is good and safe for both. What do you suggest? Vlad

Use Opera. It kicks the collective a**es of all the rest. Vlad

I'll be the wierd one. My WWII Mauser K98k. 60+ years old, and shoots better then I can with open sights. 8mm Mauser will take down anything on the planet with proper hits. Controled feeding is a great thing, and striper clips can be faster then mags. As much as I like the laminated wood and the orginal looks, if I had to plan for a long trip in the wild I would replace the stock with a polymer one and suplement the iron sights with a scout scope. Vlad

Here is why I think that logic is flawed: 1) DA/SA guns may or may not fire the first shot in DA but the second, third, and so on, will be in SA. 2) By your reading, the second shot makes the gun a SA gun for the rest of the COF. 3) By the new wording, there is no difference between the first and second shot, thus if shooting the first shot SA makes a DA/SA gun a SA gun, so should the second. That means all DA/SA guns are SA guns. 4) SA guns are not allowed in Production ERGO, by your logic no selective fire weapon is allowed in Production. Do you actually believe that? In any case, I am glad that this discussion has led people to make sure that the new rules are clear on the issue, which was my whole request to begin with. Vlad

Thank you, Bucky. No I am not subscribed to that list. Could you throw me a pointer to it, and/or its archives. Personally I would love to start my CZ C&L in production, that being the only reason I currently shoot L10. However, I completly understand if people have a problem with that, as it would put some really popular guns at a disadvantage (like your Beretta, or SIGs, etc). On the other hand, the SA pull of my CZ is about as heavy as some Glock triggers I have seen. Either way, I think if the rules are left as they are described in the minutes, then C&L is legal. If that is not the intention then I think that the rules must be written down to say so. I really don't think this is something to be left to the ROs Vlad PS: thank you for starting this thread in the right spot.

Vince, I agree. However under the new USPSA rules that wording would no longer be there. Vlad

Well ... As far as I have always understood it, it goes like this Single action pistol = a pistol which can only shoot single action aka SAO 1911, 2011, BHP, Desert Eagle, etc Double action pistol= a selective fire pistol, single action and double action, DA/SA CZ, Beretta, USP, SIG, etc (some can do C&L, some can't) Double action only = .. well I guess that one is simple. DAO Glock, many versions of otherwise DA/SA guns, etc So as far as I can tell, Appendix 6 will still ban the first one, but says nothing about the use of the second. In fact it never did, as far as I can tell. However it made no sense to have your DA/SA gun cocked an locked as you had to decock before the first shot so no competitive advantage could be gained from it, plus the RO may not be able to tell if you decocked before your first shot. I believe what you are refering to is closer to "conditions" (as in carry conditions) or state of the gun at a certain point, but that is not what the rule says, even if it means it. It only refers to type of gun. If your reading was correct then any gun which can be fire in SA would be banned, as there is no wording banning SA at the first shot or the second shot, or in the holster or out of it. So, by your reading, guns that can be fired in SA would not be allowed EVER. That is clearly not the case. Heh .. if I was in a foul mood, I would mention that by the wording of the rules, the XD is C&L and allowed. But I actually think that the XD in Production makes sense given how it actually feels to the shooter. Vlad PS: If we continue this, we should really move to Bucky's thread

But Gary, that is exactly my point. The current wording leaves it up to the RO. My point is that if you can not answer the question "Where in the rules does it say that?" then I don't think you can make the case that the shooter should be bumped into a different division. You say "which is not allowed in Production" and I am asking "where does it say that". All I am saying is replace "first shot double action" with "gun must be holstered decocked after LAMR", which doesn't live any room for confusion. Oh well. I give up and I go brave the snow storm and hope I can make it home. It looks really mean out there. Vlad

Actually it doesn't say "single action not allowed", it says "single action pistols not allowed". The difference is huge. By the logic of the first one you would only be allowed DOA guns, as single action would be not allowed on the first, second, or other shots. "single action pistols" however defines and excludes SAO weapons. It says nothing about the use of DA/SA weapons. At least that is common usage of action types (in my experience). The only thing forcing a decock and use of the DA was the phrase just struck from the rules. So to reply as the devils prosecutor, assuming that the rules will only be modified as described in the minutes, please tell me where it says I can't do that. Vlad PS: Please undestand that at this point I am only being a rules lawyer. I don't have an objection to being requiered to decock, I just think that if that is the case it should be made very clear in the rules.

Gary, I too appreciate the hard work of all those involved. But as I read the rules, I don't see anything against C&L. If the spirit of the rules is that the gun should start decocked, that fine by me, but it should be made clear in the rules so there is no room for confusion. That was my whole point. Thank you for taking time to address this. Vlad

Gary wrote : I couldn't spot the Vince posting you are refering to. My confusion persists and it has to do with the rules, because I can not find any rule in the rule book that says you have to decock for Production. All it says (as far as I can tell) is that the first shot must be double, and no SA guns allowed. Also according to 8.1.2.3 C&L is a valid condition for a selective action, and the first shot must be DA rule is about to go away. I am not trying to be a hardass, I am just curious of what rules apply where. I am new at all this and I am trying to make sure I understand the rules. So if I missed some rule, please let me know what prevents a USP or CZ from being C&L in production. Vlad

I am a bit confused. Does this mean I can start C&L in production now, or only that I can cock the gun as I draw? The rulebook appendix D says: And the BOD minutes say: Is there a set of rules that says I have to decock or can I leave my CZ C&L after LAMR? It is not a single action pistol and unless I missed a rule (very possible) I am not requiered to decock it. Help me out. Vlad

Despite the fact that I still think a model list is a bad idea, I do have to admire Vince's commitment and his will to back up his convictions. At the end of the day that means more then the rules of a game. Anyone as dedicated as that is a nice guy in my book, regardless if I agree with him 100%. So, if I have offended you I am sorry. My opinions were not an attempt to put down your work. But I still think I am right Vlad PS: I own neither a Baby Eagle, nor a P-01, I was using them as examples. Still ... damn that was fast response. I drop that part of my argument.

I shoot in the US and I am a USPSA member. The rules may not affect me directly, but being that IPSC and USPSA try to stay close to each others, the rules may affect me later. In fact in either case I feel the rules can affect me. If they are adopted by the USPSA it will restrict my choice of guns, and if not it means that the two organizations drift further apart which I view as bad for many reasons outside the scope of this thread. I dont have enough experience to know why Production is so wildly successful, but I know that myself and my friends started shooting production because of the guns we already owned. I suspect there are two ways by which shooters enter the IPSC/USPSA world, either they are raised into it by their family, or they are brought in after they already own their self defance or plinking guns. In the case of the first what gun you choose is not an issue as appropriate guns are already around. However, the new shooter who already owns guns will not go out and pick up a new one just to try a sport. Nor will he submit paper work (or e-work) to get his gun approved just so he can shoot his first match. I fully admit that the list includes the great majority of popular guns which would fit the production concept. However, here is an example. CZ makes a gun sold in the US as a P-01. It is a compact 75B DA/SA decocker, but its model is not 75. As far as I can tell it is a perfect Production gun, in form, spirit, and function. It is not on the list. Sure it can be added. But the new shooter will not bother. I guess what worries me is that Production should make it really easy for new shooters to jump in. I am incredibly lucky to shoot next to same really good shooters who share their knowledge freely. My concern is that a list of models as opposed to a list of features may make it harder for new shooters to jump in, both in IPSC and USPSA (if adopted in both) or create drift between the two. In either case, it is bad for me personally because at the end of whole mess it means less shooters, less gun owners, and more laws, regardless if I have to change anything about the guns I shoot. Sorry about the long winded post, I just wanted to state my case clearly. I had no intention of starting a flame thread. Vlad

My bad for not mousing over the link. However, when the link says UZI, I think UZI, I habit I must break. Thank you for correcting me. It was however my thought that single action guns were placed out of the production group because they gave some advantage to the shooter not based on how they technicaly worked, but on how they acted and felt to the shooter. I suspect if the average 1911 trigger requiered 3/4" movement and weighted about 10 pounds, the whole issue wouldnt even be addressed regardless on how they functioned. I could actually reply to some of the other points but: I am trully saddened if you found my opinion offensive. It was not meant as direct critisism of any one person, or even of the system. If the majority of members are ok with it, then so be it. I was only expressing my opinion. I also don't believe I made any references to old timers or new timers. You should however consider what I think to be the most important point of my original posting: Perhaps my grasp of the english language is not perfect, being my second language and all, but to me the tone of your point 6, quoted above, also makes me feel like you do not actually want to encourge new shooters to express their opinions. Far be it from my mind to instruct other how to shoot, I assumed that no harm would come from me expressing my opinion of the rules. Please forgive my assumption. I'll make sure to keep my mouth shut until I turn GM or so. Vlad

Well, I figured Marques should know . But the night I polled the folks about it, no one knew for sure, with the prevailing theory being that aftermarket mags would not be ok. So I figured I would get a second opinion. Vlad

As a newbie, I am more concerned about the equipment limitations, and I'll let the more experienced folks worry about the rest. I think that the legal guns list is a horrible idea. It is already flawed and it will only get worse as new models come out by the dozens every year, and a working group somewhere needs to meet and aprove every one. The list already has some glaring omissions, IMHO. For example, the XD is missing and so are the Magnum Research Baby Eagles. Why the XD is missing while the Glocks are not is a mistery to me, and just saying that the XD is really single action is silly. It is not single action, nor is it double action, it is something else, the same way that the Glock is not really DA or SA. I can assume that the Baby Eagle might be identical with some of the Uzi or Tanfoglio models, but just because it is only being sold in the US under that name, it gets excluded. How about the same models of listed guns being sold under various names in different countries? Most new shooters are going to be shooting in production, with the guns they already own. Why make it harder for them to jump in? Further more, many shooters have been picking up the Glocks 34, and 35. Note that in the USA they are being sold as "tactical" models, not competition models. Banning a firearm because it is somehow better then the rest, or more suited to the sport then others, while still being a fine defensive firearm is short sighted. It reminds me of 4x4 Audi's being banned from rally driving. To me it is absurd to ban a weapon advancement, so older guns stand up. To quote a different thread ... " It's the indian ... " Ban features if you must, but as far as I can tell a handgun which sits in the display cases of 3 gun dealers within 30 min of my house, like the G34 and G35, is a production gun. Vlad