BritinUSA

Had they implemented 15 rounds for both Production and CO, the decline in Production might have been lessened with limit impact on CO. i don't think CO has netted many new shooters, it's a zero-sum game, they just moved existing members to a different division. And for those that day that CO is only popular due to 140mm magazines, go take a look at IPSC, the division is doing great at 15 rounds.

I think I already mentioned something similar to this. Instead of a comp I would have porting of the barrel. This is cheaper and would have less impact on PF from factory ammunition. All the existing CO guns would probably fit into the box as well as 2011 standard guns. CO owners could then add magwells and porting to their existing if they wanted.

They are all over the place, try searching YouTube for 'World Shoot 2022' and you may find some.

I think Open is declining in IPSC, it certainly was before Production Optics came along and I suspect it will drop even faster now there is another option for those who wish to shoot an Optic. It is quite possible that in a few years the vast majority of people will be shooting an Optic, so perhaps the orgs need to get ahead of that and start planning on a transition phase for Standard/Limited.

We need divisions to separate distinctly different types of firearms, this gives the membership real choices on what equipment they wish to use. There are several factors that come into play when choosing a division; Cost - what can they afford or what types of guns are most frequently owned. And how much money is required to compete at a level playing field. Magazine Capacity. Ammunition - are they willing/able to reload their ammo or do they prefer factory ammunition. Sights - Optic or Iron Major or Minor Divisions should be clearly defined and be different from one another in several aspects. Every division should have Pros and Cons, the skills of the competitor then become key to succeeding in their chosen division. If one division checks all the boxes for the majority of shooters then (in time) that will become the ONLY division, and that limits choice and restricts growth as the sport becomes too much of a niche environment.

The videos I have seen all seem to have hard-packed gravel shooting areas while the rest of the berm is grass. Should make for a very consistent surface for everyone even if it rains. I wonder if there is official video coverage of the match?

Stage Hit Factors around 5,6,7 were common back when I first started shooting. These generally required a balance of speed and accuracy. I suspect they are much higher now, especially at L1 matches where run-and-gun, high-round-count stages are typical. It should be relatively simple to pull some data from the Practiscore database to determine the HHF from the last few years of Nationals and/or Area matches to see where it is now.

Some thoughts: Is the extractor holding the case against the breech face ? What is the crimp on the 9mm ? If you drop a round into the chamber is it going in too far (too much crimp) ?

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It's a great App, worth every penny in my opinion. I used to use it a lot when I was shooting, especially to compare scores with friends and closest competitors. Made it very easy to see where I had lost ground at a match.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone claim that the World Shoot was a hoser-fest. At a World Shoot half the stages are small/short courses and a third are medium stages.

I don’t think an org-wide poll is going to provide much insight. Look at how few members actually bother to vote for AD’s and President…. It’s pitiful.

2011 is a popular design, particularly in USA. It's allowed in Limited and Open and dominates both divisions. The thinking among some is that allowing these into Carry Optics will likely turn CO into another 2011 dominated division. 2011's are expensive compared to most factory guns and this may deter potential new members which may perceive that this type of setup is required to be successful. The whole argument goes around in circles. The rest of the world (IPSC) runs a different rule-set for divisions, and they seem to be doing very well with it.

I think Major (in its current form) is doomed. It used to be 175PF then IPSC dropped it to 170/160 for Standard/Open while USPSA went to 165. I think the caliber requirement (.40 of higher) will go away. Perhaps Major will be 145PF (9mm +P makes about 150PF, I think) and Minor remains at 125PF. So all PF requirements could be met easily with factory ammunition, which would make life easier for those that need to fly to matches.

When it first started being discussed it was just Glock and S&W that had an optic plate option.

I think that a lot of the posters here are focused on one division, either CO or Limited Optics (LO). Instead perhaps try looking at the divisions as a whole. This is what led originally to the idea of the Production Optics division as there was a hole in the line-up. We had Major, hi-capacity, highly customized, expensive iron-sight division (limited) and a Minor, lo-cap, minimal customized division (production). We had Open which is Major, hi-cap, highly customized, scoped division but no, Minor, lo-cap, minimal customized division (ProdOptics). The four main divisions (as they were originally intended), balanced each other, none of the divisions were perfect, each had their pros and cons and offered real choices. If you make a perfect division then I’m just a few years, there is only one division and no choices. Taking the original intent of the four main divisions we now have to consider changes in technology, the red-dots are growing in popularity. People with Limited guns want a dot but they want to retain all the customization and perhaps Major scoring that they have now. I think this will lead to a Limited Optics division that will - over the next few years - eventually replace Limited. Open division is declining in some areas (last reports I saw from IPSC was quite significant). So in time I can see Open being replaced with a cheaper Modified division, which would be like Limited Optics but allow porting (no comps) and perhaps frame mounted optics. The sport is changing due to the technology, new divisions are going to occur but they need to be balanced with the other divisions. Choice is a good thing, find the division that your gun fits into and then learn to overcome the weaknesses of that particular division, grow the skills is more important than grow the sport.

USPSA’s Production division was introduced around 2000 and was a copy of the IPSC Production division that was provisionally launched at the 1999 World Assembly in Cebu. The original idea was that they wanted a division for guns that were not 1911 SAO style but were SA/DA 9mm - which at the time were the most popular type of handgun outside of USA (especially in Europe). These guns were significantly cheaper than custom 1911/2011 designs, which may explain why the division grew so fast in the rest of the world. The USA take-up was a lot slower, if I recall it was about two years before it really started to grow here. The cost of the Production guns has risen due to manufacturers designing guns that are better suited to competition use, such as Tanfoglio, CZ etc. These guns are basically competition production guns, so they cost more but are much better suited to the sport than the guns that were available back in 1999. That the cost of the guns has risen is a direct consequence of the popularity of this division. If what I hear is correct, IPSC is seeing similar growth spurts in their Production Optics division.

There are two distinct groups within the sport; There is the participant that just wants to have fun and hang out with their buddies and shoot. Then there is the competitor that wants to challenge their skills and pursue excellence. Designing stages that satisfy both groups might be difficult.

My guess is Limited Optics; I think they will go with 140mm magazine, slide-ride optic, magwells etc. If they go with Major/Minor then those with existing Limited guns can cheaply convert just by milling the slide. If they go with Minor only then it’s a big outlay for those that want to switch from Limited to Limited Optics. This leads me to think that USPSA will opt for Minor-only as it will keep the vendors happy. Also, if they go with Minor-only then existing CO guns could also compete in this division, it allows the CO shooter to add magwells to their existing guns and shoot in LO if they wish. Perhaps, if enough people did that then perhaps they could restore Production Optics to what it was originally intended to be, a production gun with a red-dot, like they have in IPSC.

I think the best stages are those that appear simple and can probably be shot cleanly by a twelve-year old. Let the shooter make the mistakes by trying to go too fast or shoot something on the move to save that fraction of a second. From a stage design perspective this is easier to design into a short/medium course with a lot of movement, for example a 4-5 Hit Factor stage. A large course could have a single location that can mess with a shooter, have them run to one side of the berm and engage two 6" plates set apart about 15 yards and see how many people can do it in just two shots. Just about anyone can do it, but someone tries to do it too fast, misses one, starts to leave and then has to go back. I don't think there is a need for difficult or impossible shots, the challenge comes from doing the achievable, quickly.

The way I was taught: Measure case thickness and multiple by two…then add that to the bullet diameter. 0.012 + 0.012 + 0.356 = 0.380 That should be the measurement at the rim of the case after seating/crimping.

It’s called Production for a reason.

Perhaps Matches to identify the weak points, then Practice to fix them ?

The proposal remove the wording on trigger springs but add new sub-rules that allows for after-market triggers. In Production Optics they are also allowing some milling of the slide to accommodate after-market mounting plates. This is a necessary change as not all manufacturers make mounting plates for every available red-dot, so this gives some more flexibility and choice to the competitor. The proposals seem to bounce between center-fire and action-air in some cases. Not sure if this has been typed up right or not. I’m not surprised that Production Optics Light is on the chopping block, I’ve posted about that before. I wonder if we will see some participation numbers on the ProdOptics division, my guess it’s easily in the top four divisions already. Open and Standard are proposed to have maximum magazine capacity’s at 28 and 18 respectively. This is going to be a long meeting….. I hope all the Prod and ProdOptics changes go into effect as I think that rule-set is better than USPSA. though I still think that IPSC will have to look into a StandardOptics division before much longer. It might be worth having a provisional one to test the waters.

I was first in my district this morning. They checked my drivers license, crossed my name off the ledger then wrote it onto a backup list, and handed me the ballot. In and out in less than 5 minutes.