Erik S.

Yep, that's what you want....just enough to knock the edge off but not enough to bite the case into the bullet (lead OR copper)

Ill look in some of my old notebooks at home to see if I still have actual forces but I did the experiment back in my early college days so may have thrown it away......stupid if I did considering I am an avid reloader who is interested in this type of thing.

This is MY opinion only and is not intended to overrule someone with concrete scientific evidence of the effects of bullet crimp. I think of crimp as removing the bell, also (as stated in your quote). I crimp so that each round chamber checks and sort of rounds the sharp edge around the outside case neck and so each round feeds reliably. Removing that sharp edge accomplishes that for me. I don't think of it as cutting into the bullet to hold it there. Unless you're having bullet seback issues, this approach might work for you. Because case length can vary drastically, the crimp can also vary drastically since the die crimps based on contact with the case rim. Because of the inherant and uncontrollabe inconsistencies, I rely almost entirely on "neck tension". The .45 doesn't have a "neck" so that term isn't entirely accurate, but you catch my drift. I don't know anyone who trims each pistol case. That is the only way to achieve a consistent crimp. .002" or .003" case variation will not significantly change your coefficient of friction between the case and bullet but those few thousanths could be the difference between crimp and no crimp if you have your die set up to do so. I would much rather round that little edge off and call it good. I tested this in an experiment where I drilled holes in bullets sideways and seated them...tied fishing line through the hole and (using a shell collet) pulled each bullet measuring the force required with LabView and the required sensors. The cases were of varying length and crimped the same. Other cases also varied in length by the same measurements and did not have crimp applied. There was a spread in each test but far more drastic with the crimped cases. The shorter cases had almost no crimp while long ones had quite a bit. Seating/crimping was done with a lee seating die. Moral of the story, use powder charge to control pressure/velocity and seating depth to ensure reliable feeding.

Don't see what you don't need to see or what's not important...especially while shooting a stage!

That is true! You must be running a Glock if clearing jams is an issue. 1911.....NO PROBLEM! LOL! I run a glock, maybe 2 jams in 10 years. But it is a valid issue, local shooter wants his young son to come out and play. He shoots fine but can't rack the slide. If you can't get yourself going at Make Ready, kind of hard to do the rest. haha! Only kidding with the stab at Glocks But the rarity of jams is an indication of good reloading practices! Keep it up! Somehow the guys who ALWAYS get jams also seem to get the squibs I usually suggest a how-to DVD on reloading.

Yep, alot of good responses and suggestions here. Thanks for posting back often to answer the questions posed to you. That helps everyone determine what you have/haven't tried. If your chrono mounts on a standard tripod (not familiar with your chrono), pick up a tripod that has a head tilt feature (sideways!, not just the handle forward and back). If you're shooting in the AM or PM, or anytime, you can angle the head to tilt your chrono at the perfect angle to the sun. Stick a dowel through the "shooting area" and make sure a nice shadow is cast across both sensor openings. If your tilt is too drastic, you will have a smaller shooting area, so don't shoot your chrono, but with pistol that's not usually an issue. With rifle, you have to consider your sight height (height difference between your bore line and sight line).

LOL How much is it to buy a book anyway? Less than the amount of hourly pay you would have earned for your time spent reading this site! But there is NO substitute for this drug called "Brian's Forums"

Could be that you were in the shade. I wouldn't set the chrono in the shade UNLESS you're using your IR kit. Since you have an IR kit, I'm beginning to think it's not the chrono unless there's something wrong with a sensor or the main unit. FWIW. Keep us posted on what you find out! I think the biggest thing at this point would be to put those SAME loads through a friend's chrono and see if they match your results...if not, it's your chrono.

That is true! You must be running a Glock if clearing jams is an issue. 1911.....NO PROBLEM!

That's a possiblility. Do you have a gun that you KNOW will throw you some accurate rounds and therefore give you small SD and ES? Try shooting a rifle through it and see what happens. If you're getting that kind of data with a precision rifle, it might be the chrono. Or you can go up to the first guy at the range you see with and Oehler and ask if you can borrow it. He'll probably say no. Wouldn't hurt to try the same brass and do some case prep that you wouldn't normally do. Try it then. I guess your goal at this point is to rule out (or in) the chrono.

I use almost exclusively standard USPSA cardboard since I can't afford to buy a bunch of steel. Welding some together with my father-in-law is in the works, though. I borrowed a few 8" steel circles on stands and a dueling tree from a friend but have since returned them. Those were nice to have.

You said to "let the people you love know you love them", but did NOT say to "let the people you hate know that you hate them". Was the "bang bang" a hint?

*edit* oops! Wrong thread! lol

Boy, am I glad to hear somebody put it into words like that! Great post. This one should go in the bookmarks just because of how you explained it. I don't know if it just made sense to me or if it works for other shooters as well, but describing grip is so hard. You did a great job! Now if I could only execute that perfect grip from a lightening fast draw and keep it that way throughout the stage!

...and sometimes we definitely ALL feel like monkeys out there. Having a new shooter only squad would be like me hosting a mountain bike clinic and making all the newbies go ride by themselves while myself and the other hammerheads go have a good time. While shooting sports are very competitive, it's more like a time trial as opposed to a mass start. If I hadn't had the chance to see other more experienced shooters shoot a course of fire during my first match, I probably would not have returned for a second match. Erik S. and I are fortunate (or maybe it's unfortunate....not sure) that we have small turnouts for our matches. Usually no more than 3 squads of nine or ten. I may not be any good, but at least I'm having fun, able to watch MUCH better shooters, and I learned to safely maneuver through a course of fire very rapidly with confidence in a short period of time by watching the grand monkeys...I mean masters. Now I even look forward to being the first one to shoot a stage. Grand Monkeys! That's a good one. I still want to be one someday

Yeah, those shotshell holders are nice. I had 2 6's up front and ran out on one stage. I looked pretty goofy pulling shells out of my back pocket. Luckily, there wasn't a whole lot of AR, so I didn't need a bunch of mags. There was alot of shotgun. I am a decent shotgunner and shoot rifles well also since I come from a long range background vs. pistol. I did mostly F-class with the rifle, though, so there is not much speed involved. Working the AR (thank goodness I didn't have any feeding/ammo problems!) and shotgun while thinking about what was next on the stage was difficult! I really need to challenge my mind into remembering stuff and work my way up to remembering the instructions for a whole match. Saul Kirsch has a drill in his book where you remember your called shots starting with 1 target (ie. 1st high left Alpha, 2nd low middle Alpha) working up to a whole string of targets. I think that brain exercise would carry over to remembering stage instructions as well.

Well, I sucked at the 3-gun match but not for the lack of a good belt setup! I had trouble mentally during stages. I believe this is because I wasn't used to transitioning between several gun types as well as remembering stage instructions. There were a lot of target order instructions (I.e. shoot failure drill on first paper array, move to table where shotgun is staged with empty chamber, shoot poppers and texas star with shotgun then 2 slugs on specific target, move to 3rd shooting box, shoot more slugs on specific targets and remainder of poppers then plate rack with pistol strong hand while holding shotgun in weak hand). Was just a lot to remember and there were SO many targets, I actually forgot 2 paper on one stage. I was actually borrowing a lot of gear that I didn't have much experience with and an AR that wasn't sighted in well. Lol Had a BLAST! Might do it again sometime but the match took 6hrs for 4 stages.....so a bit long. I love shooting but it was really windy and dusty so got windblown. Everyone but a few of us left at the end, so teardown was a pain. All went well, no close calls or major safety issues for the match as a whole from what I gathered so it was successful! Thanks for your tips and belt setup advice.

Ok quick update on more measurements: COAL: 1.234" but that doesn't tell much because of bullet variance so use chamber check method for your gun. This is the longest that will fit in my gun. Bullet diam: 0.452" Give me a little longer to measure bore diameter for both lands and grooves. .001" crimp. No setback issues whatsoever and doesn't cut into moly coating. Not a single FTF so far in this gun EVER in almost 2k rounds. Plus I am using LEE seating die so crimping too much can be detrimental since its done while seating bullet. 3.8gr clays ES:33 SD:13 3.9gr ES:20 SD:7 4.0gr ES:20 SD:7 4.1gr ES:26 SD:10 4.2gr ES:20 SD:7

Always start out with 1 round for trigger test with a mag that doesn't lock the slide back so you can see if the striker falls on the 2nd round! Don't know much about glocks, but what happens when you fully CLEAR the gun and double check that its clear, pull the slide back to cock it then pull the trigger and while holding the trigger cock the slide again then slowly let the trigger reset? If you can tell WHEN its firing again, you might be able to determine what's happening with the internals yourself. I hate sending off guns.

These were exactly the replies I was looking for! Thanks a bunch! I think you're right that I shouldn't sweat it. Never thought to taylor it to the stage....I'm so used to my standard SS belt setup. Thanks again!

I'll measure my crimp later and let you know. Good question! That has a big effect on pressures.

I have done some searches and found several threads about 3-gun belt setups but most of them diverge to discussion about a particular aspect or carrier on the belt. Tomorrow is my first 3-gun match. They're fixing the steel targets, so putting on a 3-gun instead of the regular USPSA match. I'm shooting Tactical Scope Limited with my 1911 and 10rnd mags. I have 2 or 3 6rnd shotgun shell carriers, a double AR mag carrier, a single AR mag carrier, 3 double pouch single stack mag pouches, and a variety of AR mags. I do not have a vest, everything needs to be set up on the belt (CR Speed). I would GREATLY appreciate pictures but good descriptions will suffice since I need to get this thing set up TONIGHT. I have a 34" waist, so not much room, but no "overhang" in the belly department. Also wondering where you guys put your CR Speed velcro overlap. Front or back? I ususally do front since I shoot SS in USPSA and can't have anything there anyway. If I missed a thread discussing this, PLEASE post a link. I did all I could in searching. Thanks for any input! *edit* I'm a right hand shooter.

In first post, but I updated the data post to reflect.

Ok...I've been super busy but I figured I'd better get SOMETHING up here. I'll report ES and SD (as well as exact seating depth) when I get back to my home computer, but here is some starter info: Climate Variables at time of testing: Temperature: 81 F Humidity: 13% Pressure: 30.15" Full Sun (so good chrono readings) Gun Data STI Trojan 5.0 .45ACP approx 1900-2000 rounds through barrel Data: Bullet: 200gr Moly coated LSWC from Billy Bullets Primer: Federal 150 LPP (blue box) Powder: Hodgdon Clays (standard Clays) same jug Case(s): 2x fired Federal brass 3.8gr clays Average Velocity: 820 FPS PF: 164 3.9gr clays Average Velocity: 835 PF: 167 4.0gr clays Average Velocity: 850 PF: 170 4.1gr clays Average Velocity: 865 PF: 173 4.2gr clays Average Velocity: 880 PF: 176 Just as a preliminary, I seat my bullets to about a thumbnail of the "shoulder" is above the rim of the case. This chamber checks to be flush with the hood on the chamber side of my barrel. Like I mentioned, I'll get exact dims later, but IMO the chamber check will give you a better idea of how it might shoot out of YOUR gun since it will be roughly the same distance away from the rifling. Let me know if I'm leaving out any info. I wrote everything down and have the chrono results downloaded in my computer, so I can repost/edit if needed. *edit* Oak Hill, I'm also interested in comparing these results to your strait lead data. I haven't ever run straight lead since it's so smokey, but let me know if you have any data! Also, forgot the accuracy part. 1.5" 5 shot groups at 25yds from a rest.

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