Vince Pinto

This is correct for Level III and higher matches, and it's excellent advice, because it's the best way to ensure consistency in officiating. And you're absolutely correct in your reading of "mandatory" in Appendix A1.

Nik, While I realise I'm banging my head against a brick wall on this topic, note that Rule 7.1.1 says "oversees competitor compliance with the written stage briefing". Now how does an RO ensure compliance if he isn't able to clarify the acceptable go/no go parameters? Remember we're essentially talking about how to deal with gamers. Who decides whether a competitor is in compliance with "arms hanging naturally", or "facing uprange"? Who clarifies that "standing in the box" actually means "standing in the frame"? Who clarifies the extent of "fingers intertwined"? Who decides that a pistol with a 2" extended slide racker satifies the "laid flat" verbiage used in the WSB? And somebody somewhere mentioned "Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner" from Rule 1.1.5, but since when is adopting the Start Position part of the challenge? Moreover, if you want to argue that "freestyle" starts at LAMR, then why the hell do we have to stand in a box, or face a certain direction, or prepare our gun in a certain way? If the Start Position was truly supposed to be freestyle, then why can't competitors decide at which location in the COF they want to start? The answer is that we require consistency with the Start Position, because the separation of the men from the boys is decided after the Start Signal.

Although I own a DVD copy of the movie, which I've seen so many times that I can virtually quote most of the dialogue verbatim, I was compelled to watch it again on HBO tonight. For me, this drama has an excellent script, performed by an outstanding cast, and it ranks right up there behind "12 Angry Men" (1957), which is my all-time favourite courtroom drama.

OK, let's cut to the chase with a specific question: If the WSB merely says "Gun on table" would you, as the RO, allow me to prop my chamber loaded gun upright, resting on it's muzzle and magazine well?

Flex, For the time being, I'd just like to clarify that the Rule Interpretations published on the IPSC website are the responsibility of the IPSC Executive Council (not IROA), as stated in Rule 11.8.1. However (as an FYI), the IPSC Executive Council currently delegates the actual interpretative process to the IPSC Rules Committee, which is headed by Mike Voigt, and of which the IROA President and the Head of the USPSA NROI are voting members.

If I insist that, for me, "arms hanging naturally at the sides" means I adopt what might be described by some as a "gun fighter" stance (think Yosemite Sam), what gives you the authority to tell me that my stance is not "natural" or otherwise unacceptable? Answer: You're the RO and you have a duty to ensure consistency. As I said in another thread, people can "face uprange" by having most of their body pointed towards the targets, but with just their face facing uprange. Of course there's no way in the wide world that anyone will get away with such nonsense on my watch (been there, done that, which is why I raised the issue), and that's because I have a duty to ensure reasonable consistency.

Hi folks, Proposed 9.5.7: Hits visible on a scoring or penalty paper target, which are the result of shots fired through the rear of the target, will not count for score or penalty, as the case may be. The above proposal was considered by the IPSC Rules Committee meeting in Bali two weeks ago, but it was rejected, hence should such an incident arise, Range Officials will be obliged to make a call based on the wording of the existing rulebook.

You continue to miss the point. You've given me your (and my!) interpretations, but the point is that even simple, everyday English can be interpreted in different ways by different people, and I'd really hate to see WSBs drafted by lawyers. This is why I continue to say that the RO has a duty (thanks Geek!) to ensure reasonable consistency. And we're taking about today, right now, the rule book "as is", where the expression "facing uprange" can be taken to a ridiculous extreme. If you come to my stage and try a stunt like having your nipples pointed towards the target, and only your face facing uprange, I just won't start you, and that's because I must ensure reasonable consistency, and I won't lose a minute's sleep with a gamer who wants to cross that narrow line into cheating. The only reason I've given extreme examples (e.g. taking your shoes off), is to show that if you read some WSBs literally, that's what it says, but it's certainly not the intent, hence again the RO must ensure reasonable consistency. Bloody perfect, and I've used that expression more often than once.

Well slap my ass and call me Susan! At least now I know why I just saw a pig flying past my window. I thought it was due to all those tequila shots last night, but they're probably just responsible for the pink elephants ......

OK, so how would you answer the following questions arising from actual written stage briefings?: Classifier 99-11: "Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A" Since it says toes of both feet, not toes of both shoes, am I required to be bare footed? Classifier 99-21: "Gun must be on its side - not propped up by any artificial means." Would an extended slide racker be considered "artificial means"? Classifier 99-27: "Loaded gun is lying flat on X in center of table with muzzle downrange" Since the WSB requires my gun be flat, must I remove my extended magazine release? When replying, please quote the supporting rule or authority.

Single stack "1911 genre" pistols with a 9 round magazine. We're discussing course design rules and target arrays (i.e. not more than 9 rounds from any single position or view), and these apply to all divisions.

And what about competitors in Revolver Standard Division who loudly complain that they must do standing reloads? Should we therefore make it 6 rounds? If we did, we'd have everybody else complaining about boring target arrays. Pick a number, any number, and somebody will be unhappy.

In that case, I think we're 95% on the same page. The only thing remaining where we continue to disagree (and which is the TFH which started all other releated TsFH), is in relation to "Gun On Table", where the orientation is not specifically stated. Of course Nik has already guessed correctly that such a vague WSB would never be seen on my watch!

Bruce, old son, The subject at hand is not a matter of "creative interpretation of the rules", nor is it one of people making up illegal "local rules". It's about whether or not an RO can clarify the acceptable parameters of what is stated in the written stage briefing - see my questions posed to Flexmoney above. I'd also like to ask you the same question I asked Jim Norman, to wit: Consider an El Presidente, where the WSB says "Facing Uprange". If I stand with my chest and shoulders parallel to the back berm (i.e. towards the targets), but I turn my head and look over my right shoulder so that my face is facing uprange, is that an acceptable Start Position to you? In other words, my interpretation of "facing" only requires my "face" to comply.

This old Urban Legend about Neil Armstrong is hilarious, eventhough it's not true ....

Apparently there's a kennel in the UK which has crossed a Bulldog with a Shih-Tzu. They call the offspring a Bull-Shit.

Hang on a second. You're saying that the RO can sometimes define and clarify the words used in the WSB, but not always? And would you kindly answer my questions below: Classifier 99-02: "Sitting behind table with knees under edge, fingers of hands interlaced in lap" Would I satisfy the "interlaced" requirement by just having the first joint of my fingers interlaced? Classifier 99-11: "Standing in Box A, back to targets, toes of both feet against rear of fault line of Box A" Since it says toes of both feet, not toes of both shoes, am I required to be bare footed? Classifier 99-21: "Gun must be on its side - not propped up by any artificial means." Would an extended slide racker be considered "artificial means"? Classifier 99-27: "Loaded gun is lying flat on X in center of table with muzzle downrange" Since the WSB requires my gun be flat, must I remove my extended magazine release? In each case above, and regardless of your answer, please quote the applicable rule. Thank you.

Hi folks, Since Skywalker has started a new, generic thread here, I'll close this one, so that all related comments stay in one place.

Which matches have the most booty? Boy, I'd really love to answer that question, but this is a family forum.

Condition 2? Is that an IPSC term?? Jokes aside, if you load all cylinders of a revolver, I submit that the chamber (i.e. the barrel) is still empty. And unless Jerry Miculek starts shooting Production, I doubt anybody would complain that a fully loaded revolver had any advantage over a pistol with an empty chamber. Remember, even if you closed the cylinder so that an empty hole was facing the hammer, as soon as you pull the trigger, a live round comes into play, so the only thing you're really doing is restricting the capacity of the revolver, which is illegal under Rule 8.1.4.

Do you mean something like: 3.2.2 The Range Official in charge of a course of fire must read out the written stage briefing verbatim to each squad. However, where necessary for the sake of consistency, the Range Official may also clarify the acceptable parameters of the handgun ready condition and/or the start position, by physically demonstrating or verbally stating them, provided that identical parameters are applied equitably to all competitors. This would obviate the need to write definitions for commonly used expressions such as "facing", "uprange", "downrange", "toes", "box", "intertwined", "surrender position", "standing upright", "hanging naturally" and "butt naked".

The thing which kicked off these multiple, marathon arguments was the thread about "Gun on table", and whether or not an RO has the right to dictate that the gun must be laid on it's side, despite a possibly vague WSB. As I suggested in my reply above, a good WSB gives competitors reasonable leeway, such as where to stand behind a charge line (e.g. left, centre or right), but as I've explained ad nauseum (and leave my Latin the hell alone!) in other threads, there can be numerous interpretations of some expressions which you and I take for granted (see my extreme example about "Facing Uprange" in this thread). My primary task as an RO is safety. My second task is to assist all competitors equally, and without fear or favour. The best way I can do that is by not influencing the outcome of a match, such as by not observing the misguided "benefit of doubt" (aka "close enough is good enough") theory, and by assuring that all competitors adopt a reasonably similar Start Position (e.g. somewhere along the charge line). However if my first 400 competitors understand that "Gun on table" means "flat", there's no way on God's Earth that #401 is going to stand his gun erect.

Maybe we do but, until we do, I trust you can now see that gamers can have some pretty extreme interpretations of expressions which you and I understand to mean one thing, and one thing only. If you tell me to stand facing uprange, you can bet your sweet bippy that I'll adopt the generally accepted orientation, which is to have the entire front of my body and my head facing uprange. I also suspect that if the WSB merely says "Gun on table" then you, like me, would automatically lay the gun on it's side. Apart from the potential safety issues of having a loaded gun propped on it's muzzle and magazine well, I'm guessing that you, like me, understand the spirit of the WSB, without the need to have the WSB written by a lawyer. And I also suspect that you, like me, don't need a WSB written by a forensic pathologist to explain that "fingers intertwined" means "all the way" (not just the tips of the fingers). I've never yet encountered a competitor who has argued my "guidance" about what is, and what is not, acceptable in order for him to comply with a WSB, and I certainly hope I don't encounter one in the future. If competitors want to impress me, they need to get a high hit factor on my stage, not argue the meaning of "is". OK, who wants to use the soapbox now?

Folks, This is precisely why I've repeatedly stated that the RO has a right to ensure consistency with the Start Position, and it seems that the only person who agrees with me is Gary Stevens, God bless him! Unless there are special markings on a charge line, it doesn't matter whether you stand to the left, to the right or at dead centre. Unless there's an "X" marked on the FFZ, you can stand anywhere the hell you want. Unless there are footprints painted on the range floor inside the wooden frame, you can stand anywhere you like inside the frame. However there are numerous other expressions commonly used in IPSC written stage briefings which are open to broad (and sometimes silly) interpretations, and the ones I've highlighted in other threads include "Fingers intertwined", "Facing Uprange", "Facing Downrange", "Toes", "Box" and so on, and this thread alludes to "Hands hanging naturally", which means different things to different people. I'm gonna take my medication now, before my head explodes

OK, let me try a different approach. Since the topic of this thread is "Facing Downrange", consider an El Presidente, where the WSB says "Facing Uprange". In either case, it's a matter of orientation, and interpretation of the word "facing". If I stand with my chest and shoulders parallel to the back berm, but I turn my head and look over my right shoulder so that my face is facing uprange, is that an acceptable Start Position to you? In other words, my interpretation of "facing" only requires my "face" to comply.