TGO
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Posts posted by TGO
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It seems to me that there are three options we're looking at here. First, make no changes and leave the division alone. Second, bring in the eight shot minor rule. Third, make revolver dvision minor across the board and leave it at six shots. Knowing this, what are we trying to gain versus what we are willing to loose?
Most of the people who religiously shoot revolver division right now obviously enjoy shooting it with six shots, the way it is now, because they enjoy shooting it that way. So leaving the division the way it is now obviously isn't going to hurt there feelings. If we bring in the eight shot minors, the 627's, it could bring in more shooters and allow people with those guns to compete and shoot with them in the revolver division. Thats the positive side to that. The negative is that it could be viewed as being a more competitive gun versus the six shooters and either out gun or out shoot them, pushing the 625's or 610's, and the people who enjoy shooting them, out of the division. If you make the division six shot minor the possibility still exists to bring in more shooters and the current steadfast religious revolver guys still can shoot there 625's, 610's or any other six gun.
I don't think anybody disagrees that we're looking for a change to bring in more shooters to the revolver division. To me, at its core value, the revolver division was started as a six gun division. The challenges of the six shot are what brought me into it. Personally, if no changes are made to the division, other then not bringing in more shooters, I'm not going to complain, I like it the way it is. But, if I had to make the choice I would rather make a change that brought in more shooters, but, didn't create the possibility of pushing "any" current ones out. I don't think everyone in this forum believes that. But, I would rather first try a change that errored towards bringing in more shooters and keeping "all" of the current ones, then going the other direction. Either leave the division the way it is, or lets make baby steps, make the division minor with six shots, and lets try it for a while and see what happens. If that doesn't work, try bringing in the eight shots.
Making minor 6 will immediately change the landscape and probably not appeal to those who are not shooting now. It will just mean we all go buy 686's and have them moon clipped and shoot 38 short colt. That is no different than buying an 8 shooter except that very few of those 6 shot moon clip guns are out there being used.
I think the number should be minor 7, but that makes no logical sense. It would not get the guys out who wanna do less reloads and already have the far more popular 8 shooters.
When the division was organized as it is now, I must admit that I was supportive of the 6 shot only rule. I assumed this would allow me to shoot my current L frame with speedloaders. It is obvious very few want to go that route. Now we need changes.
Remember, this is only a theoretical issue at this point. But, next time I see Phil he's gonna get my opinions....
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I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.
Isn't it at the local level that Revo needs to grow? As Cliff said, if it's the National level that's the bellwether, problem solved.
Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...So why not campaign for making Revo minor? Why the focus on the 8-shooters?
Seems you and others really want those extra 2 rounds. That's what all of this appears to boil down to, wanting the higher capacity. Well, great. What do you tell the 6-shooters? Tough noogies?
So as not to take the currently used 6 shooters advantage away. You are over simplifying the whole issue. There is no do just this then this will happen scenario. You already can shoot minor 6. maintaing major for only the 6 shooter is critical to keeping them relevant. Go back and read all the posts in this thread again, then see if you can't figure out what various opinions actually are.
I am just one voice. Others feel the same as me. I see you do not want this 8 shooter thing to be in place. OK.
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Lots of good thoughts here. I really enjoy all the input from so many interested parties. 250 posts on this thing, I'd say revo should be alive and well.
I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...
The 8 shot from a position thing was started so as to remove some of the hi capacity magazine necessity. It didn't stop shooters from selecting the highest capacity option in a division and those divisions now flourish. I don't want revolver to become a place where you just gotta have an 8 shooter but you are gonna have to make a choice. Is it good for the division or not. The Western States Revolver challenge difinetely showed that in a course of fire not 6 round neutral, the capacity was a big advantage. I bet that like the SS Nationals is designed to be fair to 8 shooters in a world of 10 shooters, the course of fire for the Revo Nationals will be designed so that IF the 8 minor thing was allowed, It would be hard to decide which was better. That would be a good thing.
A point to make is that at our local matches, most of the match directors ignore things like 8 shot neutral and 32 round max per stage. 6 shooters on the 40 round courses we get around here can really be a test of reload speed. The shooting can become much lower priority. I do agree that at club level, skill being equal, the 6 shooter is gonna have his work cut out for him if the COF designers do not care.
Then again, I like my 627's minor recoil a lot more than my 625's major...
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Seriously though guys, the answer is a combination of all these things for some, and the total lack of these things for others. I can tell you for me when it's easy, I shoot well. When it's hard, it's more difficult to shoot well. If I'm good at something it's easy.....
At some point it becomes a little mash of skill, experience and confidence. You can overcome a small lack of one of these items if you have an overabundance of the others.
But the point is really how you measure shooting well. Is it by points dropped or times, hit factors or winning. For me it is all of these.
Maybe it's different for everyone. If I can't identify what causes a certain performance, there is no way I can predict which way it's gonna go. Maybe we should start paying more attention to these conditions before good/bad happens rather than after?
Back in the old days when Benos and I were shooting or talking about shooting every second of the day, I identified that skill starts the whole thing for me. If I was skilled I'd shoot well, then finish well then be motivated to practice and improve further my skill set.
Can't talk for Brian, but I bet he has lots of this info somewhere around here.
The catch is everyone understands this issue in different ways. Brian liked the matches to test his theories developed in practice. I truly believe he enjoyed the practice more than the match. I used the matches to test whether I was as good as I wanted to be and where I needed improvement. And whether I could shoot well under pressure. I do, so I like that situation/environment. None of that has diminished in 30 years of shooting at the National level.
This discussion is unchanged from 1979 when I first started shooting with Big Daddy. It's like religion, some people need little discussion of it of it to get by and others need a constant barrage to maintain their interest. I don't feel either angle is wrong. I do feel it's most important to identify the skill inadequacies first and diminish those in practice and training. After the technique and skill are in place, it's much easier to be confident and good under pressure.
Then again, I may be wrong.....
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Too much sex - or - not enough sex !!!
What's sex?
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I don't think we wanna push for a new division, open revolver when we can only get 17 to the nationals. This 8 shot minor thing is just a modification to an existing division. it is going to be real hard to convince the board of USPSA directors that we need a new division until we prove we are gonna support what we have now.
This whole 6 shot neutral thing can be handled by making any revolver only matches comply with no round count at a single shooting position more than 6 unless it is greater than 8. simple. I'm not saying I would shoot major, but if the shots were hard enough and there were partial targets, I might find it difficult to select minor if I was making the same number of standing reloads as I would with major. I like points! (Said as Dax Shepard in "Idiocracy")
This is not a modification of the Revolver division, it is a fundamental change of it. The rules of USPSA allow for up to 8 shots at single position and that is what you get a lot of the time. The last nationals was all 4's and 8's. Unless you change that rule for the whole of USPSA, the 6 shot gun that has been revolver division is dead. Not one shooter who finished top 10 at the nationals would shoot one because it would not be competitive. It is not just the standing reloads, it is extra shots on steel and swingers, it is being able to push harder because you have back up, and it is not having to make choices to what you will shoot when and where. What I liked about revo was having to shoot fast and straight and figure out how to shoot the stage to your skill set. Shooting revo is a challenge and that goes away with the 6 shooters.
"I completely agree with most of what you say. Some I do not. Personally I only care about the Nationals being a fair event. I would hope all could see that having the 6 shot neutral thing is all that makes 8 minor fair and equal. I agree, at any Area or lower match you are gonna get killed shooting a 6 shot against the 8. The same is true for every non National I have seen in SS for some time. Even making it 8 shot neutral for the SS guys doesn't usually overcome the advantage 10 minor has in those events. That being the case, I still want 8 minor because I enjoy shooting it more than the major 6." Rob L
We can talk about the ICORE guys and how can we get them into USPSA. I know for a fact that many of them have 625's or 25's and they don't come out. Equipment is not the reason.
Using the single stack comparison is not valid and foolish. SS works because we shoot in an 8 round world. 8 vs 10 is fine when you never have more than 8 shots. 6 vs 8 will never be fair in 8 round matches. Rob had said we could make a revo only match 6 round neutral to be fair. When do we ever have an revo only match. Not Area, State, or sectionals. No 6 shots in any of those matches with the rule change.
"Foolish? no it isn't. Again, I do not care about any event being 6 neutral except the nationaIs. I understand you want the standing reloads to be a major part of the performance in revolver division. This opinion I respect but do not agree with. And it is valid. Unless your position is you want no change and to have to do as many standing reloads as is possible. Were I to load like you I probably would also." Rob L
I am talking about competing at the top level. I realize that if Matt Griffin is shooting an Area match and the next best guy is B class; Matt can win with a 625. Who thinks they could have beat Matt shooting a 627 while they shot a 625 at the last nationals. The answer is NO ONE. There will guys shooting 6 shot for fun just like Vic shoots his open revo in open class but they will not win.
Before we completely change revo division, why not make a category in production for revolvers?? In a few years, we could see the number for people who are interested in shooting their 8 shots in USPSA. I know Rob has stated that they are not competitive but under the present rules, they are much more competitive vs 10 than is 6 vs 8.
"Who the hell is gonna shoot that? The revo is getting it's own National this year and that is of the utmost importance. Keeping everything else the same will not cause any growth at the state and local level. That's what we need next." Rob L
I want to be clear. We are talking about completely changing the division not just adding a few new shooters.
I agree, we are. Rob L
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Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?
What I want to see is somebody WIN 5 National titles this year. Single-Stack, Revolver, Production, Limited and Open.
It might have to be Nils. (or Bob or Dave) ...since you aren't ready to shoot the red dot yet.
Too late. I won a bunch of open nationals when there was only open . Plus I won open in 1995, with an Aimpoint Comp sight, TRI frame, 9x25 caliber, 7 port compensator with Nowlin barrel shooting 135 grain Nosler bullets loaded with Vit N350 powder. Still have the gun in my collection of National and World title winners.
I can remember everything from that far back, not yesterday or as Kippi says, "to remember to take out the garbage". Soooo... I'm kinda your first, best hope. How's that for Irony....
Like Quigley said, "just because he never had much use for one didn't mean he didn't know how to use one...." You kids really need to brush up on your history.
I read it that way to, but when I read it again I think he meant to win all 5 in one year, which would be pretty special to say the least.
Clearly you've won everything there is to win in general, so you are the likely guy to have a win in every division in your career.
I suspect Jerry will work very hard to make sure that doesn't happen and Matt is going to be circling to dash everyone's hopes and dreams...
Can't win them all in one year yet. L10 and open are the same match.
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Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?
What I want to see is somebody WIN 5 National titles this year. Single-Stack, Revolver, Production, Limited and Open.
It might have to be Nils. (or Bob or Dave) ...since you aren't ready to shoot the red dot yet.
Too late. I won a bunch of open nationals when there was only open . Plus I won open in 1995, with an Aimpoint Comp sight, TRI frame, 9x25 caliber, 7 port compensator with Nowlin barrel shooting 135 grain Nosler bullets loaded with Vit N350 powder. Still have the gun in my collection of National and World title winners.
I can remember everything from that far back, not yesterday or as Kippi says, "to remember to take out the garbage". Soooo... I'm kinda your first, best hope. How's that for Irony....
Like Quigley said, "just because he never had much use for one didn't mean he didn't know how to use one...." You kids really need to brush up on your history.
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We already have Open minor. You want to shoot with optics on your production gun, shoot in open. We don't need duplicate divisions
So we need a new division so old people can feel good about themselves again?
OK, now I remember why I don't spend that much time on some of these forums. I remember having to deal with this type of mentality from my kids. They were very young though and all grew out of it. Good lord!!
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No Doug (real old joke) I'm not bitter, just thought I'd add something new to the discussion and see how other people felt about it.
As far as the optics go, I suggested that about Senior and Super Senior classes some time back and everyone seemed to think that the answer was to shoot Open. Thats ok, but if you have managed to advance to Senior or Super Senior you probably could not be very competitive in Open, especially if you just wanted to shoot your Single Stack gun. I even suggested that it would have to be a slide mounted dot so you could still use the same holster and gear.
I agree 100% with this!!!
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Otto Matyska shot the first Hi-Cap at a USPSA Nationals in 1988 or 1989 at PASA. I think it was 1989. It was a prototype gun in .38 Super and he cast the frame himself. The magazines came from Europe and held 19 rounds. The gun had a semi-profile compensator with multiple chambers and ports. The mag funnel was integrated into the frame and was huge. The gun also had a pivot trigger. The frame is at Otto's shop now with a few cracks in it. The gun had easily 100k through it at a 180 or better power factor as major was 175 at the time. I personally shot around 500 rounds out of the gun. The frame has a striking resembalance to a Caspian Hi Cap...... Which is the brand of Hi-Cap Otto built for me in 1993 and I continue to shoot.
Otto is still in business and is as busy as ever. I'm proud to call him a friend!
Marty
A-7424
John Dixon's Para framed hi cap was a little ahead of this I think. Someone oughta ask him. Those frames were kinda crappy at the time and no one else wanted one, but they did improve them dramatically very soon after. They had a second generation model that was much thinner and better recieved. I'm thinking Dixon's was a .45 around 1985-86. Not real sure.
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It has been stated the 625 isn't made/available currently. Is the 627 available? I just check Bud's and CTD and they are both out of stock.
Along that line of thinking...I was working a deal (fell through) on buying a 625 to shoot the Revo Nationals with this year. I'd be quite a bit put off if I bought one, then the games switched on me.
Yes, several 8 shot models are manufactured by not only Smith and Wesson but also Taurus. The 5" 625 is not currently being manufactured. There are lots of guns you can shoot not only this year but after, regardless of whether the 8 minor thing happens.
If you are looking for a way to shoot the class without an investment, you are probably not really behind it. Are you just wanting to shoot the Nationals because you can do it by staying one more day? If so that's cool, but those guys that live the wheel will be making the decisions on this when you and I are shooting the other divisions the rest of the year. I'm and admitted closet revo guy. I can finally shoot the Nationals because of the format. I can tell you I have and will be training for this, not just showing up and staying another day.
Anybody else relish the chance to have it out with these revo guys or am I the only bottom feeder who is really gonna try?
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Steel Challenge ok's the eight round revolvers, I think it makes sense to allow them in USPSA.
There is no format more friendly to an 8-shot revolver shooter than Steel Challenge. (No reloads and 3 extra shots. If you need more than 3 extra shots...you already blew the string)... And yet...we don't see a lot of revolver shooters at the Steel Challenge matches.
Well, it is the steel challenge. Obviously that is not a popular a venue as USPSA. we don't see a lot of any shooters at the Steel Challenge. It is a circus event like Bianchi and because it is so specialized will never be as widely attended as USPSA practical pistol.
As I get older, I do see the need for the use of optics! Just not here not yet. Get it, I "see" the need? I'm going to try to get Carmoney to start a new thread on another idea I have brought up to Phil about this.
prod optics? slide mounted only, but all other prod rules apply?
That is something I would support.
Many folks have looked at this and there are some real issues in trying to institute it. Not sure it could work other than the local level. I just think in some way it has to be addressed. It makes way more sense to the grass roots and equipment development than anything else new.
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Wasn't USPSA then. IPSC USA.
The Para frames were definitely around in the middish 80's. John Dixon had one very early on. Made out of beryllium copper.
Jerry's gun was built by George Heuning as I remember, I'll ask him.
Jim Boland gun that Jim Zubiena 1st shot used P7 M13 mags.
P9's were in 89 I think. Doug won WS in Australia in 90 with scoped P9 in 9x21.
Georgino built one for DK and I had 2. Mine were first. George needs to tell you how they all came together.
Tommy Campbell was shooting prototype M59 in the 80, maybe earlier. 9 minor.
There's more....
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My reasons why I don't think there should be a Super Squad:
A. Most - probably all - are highly subsidized or full time employees of the firms they represent. so, in effect they are advertising agents for these firms.
B. Basically, all the others using any products from these firms are supporting the firms in question.
C. Because the Super Squad is a very small percentage of the shooters involved in USPSA, they provide the same percentage of the support to USPSA in the form of match fees, annual dues and such.
D. The argument is/has been made that the top shooters should shoot together so the lighting/weather, etc, would be the same for them. Why should they have this benefit, especially if they are the top shooters, if it is not available to any of the others shooters/classes ??
E. A good point has been made previously that it would benefit all the other shooters more if they were on the same squad as one of the top shooters/Super Squad members. I think this point has been established for a long time that shooting with someone better is a big help in improving your own shooting.
Flame away - and then state your reasons that there should be a Super Squad. And please don't use the argument that it improves the viewing for spectators as the number of paying spectators you could get into Jerry's World (Texas Stadium) for a match would not fill up one taxi cab.
Steve, with all respect, you are missing the point and wrong on several issues here. You sound bitter and I might add, I'm the guy you are talking about so let me retort.
Shooting in the super squad was instituted for one reason only, to make it fair and equal for the shooters LIKELY to win the match. They all have the same conditions, lighting, weather and most importantly, pressure. Every form of competition does this at the highest levels.
They don't run the Olympic hundred meters in groups, one in the morning and another in the afternoon and then give out the medals by the times they ran. That is just to qualify to get in. You have to beat your opponent at the same time, same conditions to really win.
Also, having one guy on your squad shooting a couple classes above the average does NOT help everyone else! If anything it makes it worse when the others try to play "match the Master " and shoot way above their heads and miss, crash and burn. I have no idea why you think that's been established for a long time? My experience being the guy you are talking about is very different than what you present.
Yes I am an advertising commercial. And if you count up the dollars I have spent on entry fees and products over the years, I have outspent and supported more than any 100 maybe 1,000 new shooters. I didn't always get things for free, and if I am spending my sponsors dollars now, they are still going to the same place that all funds go to operate a match and organization. I still have to decide whether I go to the Nationals or send daughter to Cross Country camp just like everybody else.
I do not mean to complain, I'm living the best life I could imagine. I am not rich but I love my job and what I do and that is worth a lot to me.
The super squads police themselves in a way no one else would, including RO's. Damn few shenanigans happen in those squads as the other competitors just do not let it happen if at all possible. The honor system works much better when the guy you are trying to cheat is waiting to tape the target on which you are trying to get your 5th perfect double of the match! The shooters you are competing against need to be there if possible. We already have lots of winners with an asterisk next to their names on the record books.
This is supposed to be about the optics for seniors thing. Lots of good points were made in the previous posts. Most are valid. While some who are young have less than perfect eyes, almost 100% of those in the senior divisions need correction.
I propose a couple options
1. We allow a senior in ANY division to use an optic. By doing so they are competing in senior or super senior class in that division only and are separated out of the results for that division. Ie, I can use an optic if I choose on my SS gun in 2016, but I am not eligible to place in other than senior division as I agree, it is too much of an advantage. Not sure it even should be recognized at the Area or Nationals level, just something to allow us older folks a chance to shoot on the local level with a better chance of hitting.
2. Production optics. This has already been talked about here, but as much as you may not want to admit it, these guns are part of the landscape now and are the logical evolution of the sighting system. We are at the beginning, but optical sights do have several huge advantages over iron sights. And not only for us old farts. If we are looking forward we need to accept this. We need an optical sighted division that makes more sense than open that uses these advances in technology. Several manufacturers are now offering out of the box, optics ready models that are otherwise the same as their most popular production models. And by production I mean models they regularly produce in large quantity and legal for production division.
Please understand that I do not really like the idea of these sights in general, but I do see the need and advantages the concept holds. from a personal standpoint, I can no longer see the sights on my carry gun as well as I'd like to. I can't wear my prescription glasses that let me see the sights clearly enough for daily use, I'd bump/run into all manner of things. Those of you without this issue can and will not really understand what I mean. That's OK, I never did like optics, but I see their point.
As a side, many advanced and well funded military and police groups authorize/approve/issue this setup already.
The product isn't yet perfect, but as in all things like this, competition does the best job of developing and testing new technologies.
I also don't want the guy who comes out to a match with an otherwise production legal gun to have to shoot open.
I look forward to this discussion developing.
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" Using the ICORE ammo rules, a guy with any old 6 shooter and speedloaders can come and play and only have really one handicap - speedloaders vs. moonclips. Being doubly handicapped by using speedloaders and also being scored minor can be quite discouraging."
Respectfully, this isn't ICORE. Besides, most people who are the "dust the old gun off and shoot" folks don't have that many speedloaders. For a 28 shot field course and assuming someone loads initially by hand, you'd need four at the minimum. It is doubtful that the "just getting into the game" people are going to be 100% accurate and one missed shot may require a reload, so realistically, you need two more to overcome any oops factors or mechanical problems (shortstroking, light strikes, etc). Six HKS speedloaders are 90 - 100 bucks, 6 Safariland COMP IIIs are 120. If someone is at an introductory level, they probably have a velcro style pouch or one of those Bianchi style double pouches with the snap closure on top. You'd need three of those, which is another 45 - 60 dollars. Then, the person purchasing factory ammunition has to pay 25 dollars a box for factory ammo which won't even make minor power factor, so there's another 75. Add 20 bucks for entry or so and we're up to 255 bucks for "trying it out". Shortly thereafter, the person will come to the realization that this is the wrong gear. Sure, they can switch to moonclips and get a cylinder machined, but then they need moonclips and another whole set of carriers/holders. Respectfully, I just don't understand this "we must draw new people into the game" thing in terms of absolute newbies. Existing action shooters are aware of gear requirements and have social connections to sometimes try something out, so at least they have some reasonable expectations.
I agree.
The ammo thing has to be addressed since ICORE allows lighter than PF ammo to compete as long as it's one of the approved factory loads.
1st bad news. There ain't any in the stores anymore kiddies!
2nd bad news. That stuff won't knock down the pepper poppers. They aren't going to change the power factors to less than 125 just to let revolvers to compete. They can't change the way they test the poppers and set them lighter. We gotta make 125.
The idea of revo open also is a dream right now. Until we show enough support for existing division, they are not really going to consider a new one.
And the new guy coming out to shoot his speedloaders and 6 shooter, I'm not sure how long he will keep coming back to do that.
As I get older, I do see the need for the use of optics! Just not here not yet. Get it, I "see" the need? I'm going to try to get Carmoney to start a new thread on another idea I have brought up to Phil about this.
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I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot!
I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun!
If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.
Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense.
I don't know the exact numbers, but there are far more SSR shooters in IDPA than ESR shooters. My most unscientific guesstimate would be at least 15/1 ratio.
That makes sense. IDPA is mostly minor caliber oriented. You get nothing for shooting major. BTW, Speedloaders aren't that much slower than moon clips. I'd shoot minor speedloaders rather than major moonclips if scored the same any day!
Thanks for the input. I like speedloaders.........
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. . . but then again. Looking at it another way, in the context of the day, it's a terrible idea. You'll bring in some ICORE diehards, sure, but you're locking out anyone who doesn't already have a 627, and Smith will be years before they stop stamping out M&Ps to meet demand. It's a heck of thing to try and increase participation when the one and only competitive gun is going to run you $1,000. Why not do like ICORE and just recognize a speedloader award at matches, and force it to be minor-6? If there's an argument for 8-shot guns then there is 10x the argument for speedloader .38s. You can go to J&G and buy them by the basket for $300 each, and you bring in Ruger, Taurus, Chiappa, Colt, every other wheelgun maker in the world.
Matt, are you sure? that was the quickest flip/flop I've ever seen! You could probably be a politician... seriously though, I respect your opinion. I suppose if I could reload as fast as you I wouldn't want any change either. Then again maybe I do.... No, no, never mind, I wouldn't... maybe.... Id'd put a funny smily face in here now if I new how to do it. Where are my kids when I need them?
What if this change means somehow we all beat Jerry? Huh, Huh????
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You can already shoot 6 shot major or minor with .38/.357 using speedloaders. No one does it. No one will. I don't think we are truly trying to get someone who does not shoot IPSC at all to come in with a revolver. I feel the pool of shooters are those already competing in other organizations and divisions. That's who I'm trying to get.
The Stand alone Nationals will save revo in USPSA, just like the Single Stack Classic turning into the SS Nationals saved the 1911 SS for USPSA. When Limited was started it was assumed we'd all shoot SS 1911's we had laying around in that division. After the first 2 years, we did not. L10 was the next idea to save the SS 1911 in USPSA, most shoot 10 rounds in their limited guns now. SS getting it's own watch makes it important. Revo now has that. "Free at last, free at last, thank God almighty we are free at last".
I'm fine with however this turns out. I might even shoot minor 6 at the Nationals. Major hurts my hand!! However, if we want to get more people to shoot the division, I really do not care where they come from. They aren't going to be new shooters bringing old model 10's. It takes years for most shooters to build the character and self confidence to even try the revolver. The new guy shows up with a plastic bottom feeder that is probably legal in production but still loads it fully to MINIMIZE HIS RELOADING. He then looks at the open gun longingly and thinks how nice it would be to shoot that and NEVER reload!! He just sees it as how fast he can go, not how well he can place in any given division. Eventually they come around and see that SS and revolver are the best divisions. But he doesn't know that at first. It takes experience to develop that kind of class and taste. I say steal the shooters from other divisions and organizations. What do we need to do to make that happen?
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I hate these forums when real names are not used. I would like to know who is saying what! Maybe why I do not frequent them...
Anyway, as a closet revolver lover I would like to shoot the Nationals and want it to matter. Having 17 shooters at a National is a sad testament to something. What, I am not sure, maybe that the system is broken. Obviously having a stand alone Nationals is the right thing to do, if having more participation is the goal. I suppose the best shooters in their favorite divisions are in attendance regardless but we can't even have class awards with last years turnout. I recognize that 500 shooters at the Nationals may not change who won. Matter of a fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Plenty of good shooters do not attend major matches, the best though almost always do. So in my opinion, keeping it the way it is will indeed give us a great champion, but not cause growth. We need growth to sustain any division for the future. All of them.
I know I am an outsider, being a bottom feeder, but I'm very excited about the next Revolver Nationals. I'm fine with shooting a 625. Hell, Julie already broke it in for me.
I can only base my opinions on my experience. There are a lot more shooters at the IRC and IDPA Nationals than the USPSA Revolver Nationals. I'd love for them to all want to get together and have it out! Wouldn't that be a great match, see who's Kung Fu is the best?
Rob most of us do have our names in our profile, can't really say why we use our avatars but there are so many Dave Williams it gets confusing.
I'm looking forward to this year Revo Nats also, no way I'll place as high as in the past but just being among that many Revolver Competitors especially a lot of NOT the usual suspects and top quality competitors to boot will be worth it.
Seems I saw you win the Bianchi Cup with a Revolver and I'd almost bet you'll wear out that 625 before the Nationals!
Just Finished peening the cylinder stop notches on one of my 625's, again.... I think it's the dry firing more than the actual live shooting as I practice more often with the 8 shooters due to reduced recoil.
The idea for the stand alone Nationals came up at the SS Nationals last year (I had a little free time after I got myself DQ'd). When I talked to Phil, he thought it seemed like a good idea. We met with Metcalf who said USPSA could run it at PASA in conjuntion with the SS Nationals, Phil took it to the board and bang, done!
When the discussion comes up about higher round count minor caliber, the options appear to be 7 or 8 rounds. I personally think that 7 should be the number but that makes little sense when you look at how many models are available. I'LL bet few would take the minor hit just to get 1 more round. That wouldn't help nearly as much as 8 which gets you another whole paper target. 8 seems to make more sense as that is far more common and currently the gun of choice for ICORE, which is seen as a much more active revolver group than USPSA.
Getting an 8 shot minor is easier than a 5" 625 ya'all. Several models of 8 shooter are currently being produced, no more 5" 625's are offered. Maybe it should be 7minor? I do own a 686+? I think Apex makes a hammer for the L frame...... New project? Ya, I change my mind. I want 7 shot minor now!!!
Great historical info thanks Rob. You make very good points. Ok you sold me, a change is needed let's take the next step into the dark side.
I'm foolish enough to try it with a 625 for a year, heck I beat Carmoney at last years Area 3 with my Major SS against his Minor SS. First time I beat him with the gun of his choice I think! Of course forgetting one whole target array might have had something to do with it. He got so wrapped up in gaming one stage with his 10 shot he just got lost with the rest of the course.
OOOOH, Sounds like a challenge Mike!
The history lesson is to show that good ideas can be advanced pretty quickly if they make sense and are actually do-able/easy to make happen.
I think you'll be hearing from Carmoney!
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I hate these forums when real names are not used. I would like to know who is saying what! Maybe why I do not frequent them...
Anyway, as a closet revolver lover I would like to shoot the Nationals and want it to matter. Having 17 shooters at a National is a sad testament to something. What, I am not sure, maybe that the system is broken. Obviously having a stand alone Nationals is the right thing to do, if having more participation is the goal. I suppose the best shooters in their favorite divisions are in attendance regardless but we can't even have class awards with last years turnout. I recognize that 500 shooters at the Nationals may not change who won. Matter of a fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Plenty of good shooters do not attend major matches, the best though almost always do. So in my opinion, keeping it the way it is will indeed give us a great champion, but not cause growth. We need growth to sustain any division for the future. All of them.
I know I am an outsider, being a bottom feeder, but I'm very excited about the next Revolver Nationals. I'm fine with shooting a 625. Hell, Julie already broke it in for me.
I can only base my opinions on my experience. There are a lot more shooters at the IRC and IDPA Nationals than the USPSA Revolver Nationals. I'd love for them to all want to get together and have it out! Wouldn't that be a great match, see who's Kung Fu is the best?
Rob most of us do have our names in our profile, can't really say why we use our avatars but there are so many Dave Williams it gets confusing.
I'm looking forward to this year Revo Nats also, no way I'll place as high as in the past but just being among that many Revolver Competitors especially a lot of NOT the usual suspects and top quality competitors to boot will be worth it.
Seems I saw you win the Bianchi Cup with a Revolver and I'd almost bet you'll wear out that 625 before the Nationals!
Just Finished peening the cylinder stop notches on one of my 625's, again.... I think it's the dry firing more than the actual live shooting as I practice more often with the 8 shooters due to reduced recoil.
The idea for the stand alone Nationals came up at the SS Nationals last year (I had a little free time after I got myself DQ'd). When I talked to Phil, he thought it seemed like a good idea. We met with Metcalf who said USPSA could run it at PASA in conjuntion with the SS Nationals, Phil took it to the board and bang, done!
When the discussion comes up about higher round count minor caliber, the options appear to be 7 or 8 rounds. I personally think that 7 should be the number but that makes little sense when you look at how many models are available. I'LL bet few would take the minor hit just to get 1 more round. That wouldn't help nearly as much as 8 which gets you another whole paper target. 8 seems to make more sense as that is far more common and currently the gun of choice for ICORE, which is seen as a much more active revolver group than USPSA.
Getting an 8 shot minor is easier than a 5" 625 ya'all. Several models of 8 shooter are currently being produced, no more 5" 625's are offered. Maybe it should be 7minor? I do own a 686+? I think Apex makes a hammer for the L frame...... New project? Ya, I change my mind. I want 7 shot minor now!!!
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I think the 8 shot thing is a simple move. That's going to be important. If we complicate this, nothing will happen. Make the provisional thing for one year and let the scores stand. If you don't, no one is going to try it. We only need one season to figure this out. If the powers that be were to institute this thing for this years nationals and the rest of the year, we will know in just a few months if it's going to work or a big mess. Since that probably can't get done, It will take a full season including a National for it to shake out.
I only see two real problems, ones that aren't emotionally backed.
1. The classifiers that favor the 8 rounders will get re written big time. Old Classifiers that are 8 rnds without a reload are gong to be shot much better.
2. COF designers are going to have to be sharp to not setup a big advantage for the 8 shooter. I don't see this as a real problem either way, but it will be a factor for those on the local level1 events.
I think it might be kinda cool to go to a match and not know which gun is "the best" for that COF. We have that with SS now and no one is complaining about the 10 shot minor?
I'd like to see the big dog revo shooters from all the organizations get together to have it out.
Interesting, interesting.....
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Me too
I said in an earlier post I started shooting revolver exclusively a little over two years ago, since starting to shoot USPSA in 1992.. Since, the switch, there is no other division I want to shoot. Regardless of what happens with this division I will always shoot it, be it with my 625's or my 627, or whatever comes along. As a group, in my opinion, there is no other division of shooters that are more enjoyable to shoot with and are more passionate about what they do then the revo clan. I'm glad for this discussion and the ideas. Having said my opinion, whatever decision is made for the division I am in.
Ed Savard
Sounds right to me.
Lots of opinions are being expressed here and it is giving a pretty good picture of who we are.
We need to get Carmoney to figure out how many shooters are active nationwide in revolver division. I'm betting we are gonna have the largest percentage of active shooters of a division at a National at this years revolver Championship. Not sure I said that right...
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Hey guys, no one is saying you have to shoot an 8 shot. If the match is designed correctly it isn't even proven which is better yet. This is as of now still hypothetical. In our match last week, designed for 8 round SS guns, the 8 shooter proved best.
You can already shoot any 6 shot 38/357. You can even load to major if you like. As far as getting IDPA guys to shoot USPSA, they may not really like the idea of carrying 7-10 extra moon clips or speedloaders if the reason they shoot IDPA in the first place is because they don't have to. In USPSA you will have to!
I'm just saying ICOREr's are more likely to shoot USPSA than IDPAr's! IDPA is playing gunfighter and like USPSA, ICORE is playing action/speed shooting. All have their place but that is the fundamental difference between the games. IDPA is Jiu Jitsu, lots of rules and limitations yet very skillful. USPSA is MMA, less rules, more weapons and techniques but more wide open. ICORE is Taekwondo fencing. Very controlled and very precise.
Currently, no change is proving to allow the division to dwindle, but maybe the stand alone match will be enough. In our area (2) it will not. Matter of fact, it occurs to me that all the 8 shooters now shooting our club matches are in L10. They aren't even trying to be in production or revolver.
Making a change always brings the danger of alienating those already involved. I guess if you are gonna quit and not play if they allow 8 shooters full use of the gun then that is a gamble some are willing to take. The threat of I'm gonna quit and sell all my toys seldom comes from someone truly committed to supporting the division.
Regardless of how all this shakes down, I'm gonna always try to shoot a stand alone revolver National.
Shooters who have tried revolver and not continued because they don't wanna shoot that division also are probably not going to come back and participate because of any change.
We will see what the participation is like at the local level after the Nationals. If it is stagnant or weakening, something should probably be done. If it does grow, and my guess it will, maybe they will just leave it alone. Who knows?
I'm just excited I finally get to shoot it at all. I do have a really nice pair of 625's!! I aint gonna sell them regardless of how many more times I don't shoot them....
Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?
in Revolver Forum
Posted
Not everybody wants standing 32 round positions. Obviously you are enamored with the Hi capacity thing. OK, enjoy, but watch the "EVERYBODY wants more. Always." That's not true. IDPA exists because USPSA thinks this way. IDPA is growing faster and is now larger than USPSA if the numbers I am told are true.
With respect I need to ask, do you shoot a revolver ever, or are you just interested in the topic and being heard? I mean that not as an accusation, just to see your level of involvement.