TGO
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Posts posted by TGO
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Latest update Ya'll,
No jams to date. However, it will not eject when I load 115's down to 900 fps! This is a 103 power factor for you comp shooters! Yea, it was an experiment, I just loaded 115's over the same load of TG as I'm using for the 147's. I needed to find out how low it would go and still work. My Steel load is working out to be a 115 at just over 1000 fps. I wanna stay subsonic, that's around 1060 at sea level.
Have been practicing for the Steel Challenge and am doing pretty well on a couple of the stages that have caused me problems over the years. I'm shooting the 5.25 much more consistently than my 4.5 and am actually about as fast as I am with my Custom Shop 1911 longslide 9 mm. I still draw better with the 1911, but the rest is the same.
Compared to the 4.5, I am shooting outer limits much better with the 5.25. How much is the gun, how much is my new knees I do not know. I can tell you shots that would be iffy with the shorter gun are usually hits with the 5.25. There is no doubt the longer sighting radius and the excellent sights that are easily and precisely adjustable are helping. I've used fixed for so long in production that I forgot what it is like to actually get the gun perfectly zeroed! With fixed you usually get it close with a little work but have to have lots of extra sights and a file to get it perfect. Not any more. Speed option is about the same as are the easy close stages, but 5 to go and excelerator are noticeably faster for me with the 5.25. Hope I can carry that into the match!
I'm moving the best I have in many years. Thanks Dr. Tarlow and Chad Reilly. My new knees allow this to be fun again, instead of an excercise in pain control! I am looking forward to the rest of the shooting season. Exciting!
I'd love to see posts from 5.25 owners with range stories. Am I the only one out there with one?
Rob
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Hey Ya'll,
Feel I need to throw in a bit of info. I had talked about the refitting of the barrel for matches like the Bianchi Cup where accuracy is vital. Much of what I wrote was assuming the 5.25 would benefit like all other polymer pistols as they have large clearance tolerances for reliability, which could hinder accuracy. The barrels on 5.25 are not fit the same as the rest, they are much tighter. What this may ultimately do to reliability I can't say yet as I am right at 4500 rounds through mine now, with not a single malfunction. I have not yet cleaned it but lube it regularly. My accuracy with the loads it likes is hovering around 4-5 inches at 50 yards. Mine is also not as tight as others I have since handled. I will not be refitting the barrel on this gun since I can shoot A zone head shots at 25 on the uspsa target at will, and don't think it being a little better will really help.
Am now working up loads for the steel challenge. The gun shoots very, very well with 115 Nosler JHP's with enough Tite-Group to make 1030 FPS. No spring changes except for testing both CCC and Springer reduced power striker springs. The lightest from both are reliable with Federal primers, but the WW primers need the medium red spring from CCC.
May now clean the gun as it's getting pretty nasty inside!
Rob
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I shot a 6" .40 SS at last years L10 nationals. If I were doing it again with a .45, which I have many, many times, I wouldn't even consider not using the wilson 10 round mags! The long slide is just because I have this love of long sight radius, or maybe it's compensating for something? If you get the gun setup like the post earlier about the springs and mag well and assorted stuff, you can easily be competitive in L10. But I would keep the gun legal for SS division, as it makes it much more versatile. and most folks like the lighter snappier slide of the 5" guns. Now if I worked for a gun company with an outstanding Custom Shop, and didn't have to pay for it, I might get a gun like mine!!! Otherwise, mine would be SS legal, with big mags and all the weight I could hang on it.
Minor is a rough row to hough in L10. In SS it has some advantages.
Rob
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The problem here is that that there was an incorrect post way early, before he guns were even released that said one was at a Cabellas and it was $1400.oo. That was a Custom Shop XD, not the new 5.25. That has now spread like a virus and at this point you'd have to go back weeks of posts to trace origin and find that the originator admitted it was an honest mistake. Unfortunately, the error still circulates, and new readers may think it's a $1400.00 gun. IT AINT!!!
The guns are now arriving at dealers shelves and it appears to be more like a $700.00 to $800.00 gun. That is cheap for all you are getting.
I am now having a second 5.25, this one Bi-Tone tricked out a little at the Springfield Custom shop for Kippi to use for USPSA production. Unless it shoots better than mine, in which case she will get that Black one. Don't tell her I said that!!
Rob
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Just returned from range, working up load for the Steel Challenge. This XDm 5.25 responds very well to low velocity loads. Out of my 5.25 I am running a 115 grain Nosler JHP at 1020 FPS and it ejects and locks back perfectly. Thats with the stock recoil spring. I am trying a Solid guide rod from Springer Precision, that has me weighing about 30.5 ozs. I'll definitely use the heaviest guide rod I can when those weights get established for production. I notice softer recoil with the CCC tungsten rod, hope that will make the weight!
Not that I need this, but with the above load I shot 8X's, 1-10 and 1-8 on the NRA Bianchi cup target at 50 yards. I'm really stunned at how well this thing shoots. It is already better than the XD I used to win the match this year! Next year is going to be fun, after I get some time to fine tune and practice.
Now it's all about the steel challenge. I'm not sure I'm fast enough to catch the speedy BJ Norris, but I'm certainly not going to be held back by the gun.
Shot my first match with the 5.25 at Tuesday Night Steel, placed second behind our Limited National Champ Nils who was shooting Limited class. I'm needing a little more Speed right now!!! Like Ricky Bobby, I wanna go fast!!!!
Rob
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Rich, not sure it's legal to produce a limited gun in a caliber not produced by the manufacturer but I do agree it will be cool.
I need to figure out how the Production weights are determined for uspsa. They list 4.5 9 XDm at 32 ozs. Mine with a small diameter tungsten guide rod weighs 30! Thats with empty mag. They show .40 XDm 4.5 as 30.4 ozs. Mine with small diameter tungsten guide rod weighs 32.4. I think they have mixed up the 9 and 40 in the 4.5's! Oh well, that helps anyone shooting 4.5 9mm!!!! My scale may not be right but the 40 does have the higher weight of the two. BTW, your guide rod fits perfect, as usual. I'm going to have to change it with a lighter one though for USPSA if they go by our claimed 29 ozs. on the spec sheet online. Thanks for all the stuff. I'll get to test it all on the weekend.
Which striker spring should I use with ww primers?
Rob
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Ok just spoke to Springfield. Prices are MSRP $865.00 Bi-Tone, $795.00 Black.
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I'm sure the 5.25 will be legal for production very soon. We have to produce and make available 2000 for USPSA certification, and I'm told we should have this completed within a few weeks. Don't know about Steel Challenge but I'm confident this is the model that will be in my holster for the USPSA Nationals. NRA doesn't mandate quantities, so I think technically it may be legal now. The first units are already at many shooting ranges. Get on Springfield-Armory.com to find where you can shoot one today.
Ok, the ongoing saga of "Just how well should a polymer service type pistol with factory barrel shoot" continues. Only you bullseye shooters will understand this, and I'm not saying this is awesome shooting, but I just fired a 96-6x on the Bullseye rapid fire string of fire with my 5.25. I am only better than this with my Bob Marvel Custom .22 conversion unit on a 1911 frame with super crisp 2 lb trigger. Im not sure how to process this. I have been struggling for the last 5 weeks trying to shoot a good score with an NRA legal service pistol. I have this dream to some day go to Camp Perry and make the presidents 100. This is not going to happen this year but I enjoy the challenge of trying to do something that is polar opposites with what I have trained myself to do for over 30 years. Anyway, after finishing my formal practice I ran through the 40 shot Presidents 100 course of fire with my XDm 5.25 and beat my tuned .45 score! What the Deuce!!!
This gun is growing on me big time. Now I'll start Steel Challenge practice. Wonder if I can match my limited class scores with this new polymer performance pistol.
Rob
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Starting to sound like a lot of gun for the money!!! I am glad we brought it out at a price that makes it a deal for any one wanting a high performance pistol.
I just came from the range, where I am currently practicing bullseye. BTW, I am terrible at it but after finishing with my highly tuned accuracy guns, ran through 3-5 shot strings of rapid fire with the 5.25. That is 5 shots in ten seconds, starting aimed at the target, ready to go. I scored 7-x's, 6-10's and 2-9's. I did this two handed, which aint legal for bullseye. Nonetheless I think that's a pretty good score! Especially for me.
The gun was not zeroed for a six o'clock hold, which I used, (I don't know why either, that's just how I shoot bullseye), 2 rounds are 1/4 inch above targets dead center and all the rest are low. Whole group is just under 3 inches and would easily be all tens if centered. OK I gotta say it, at the risk of sounding like a company man, this gun is awesome. I never expected or intended it to shoot this well? Not complaining, just been around for a long time and don't get this excited about a gun very often.
Just received and installed a 4.2 ounce guide rod from Canyon Creek Custom and can't wait to get it out for a little IPSC practice. Rich sent me a whole pile of cool stuff, springs to lighten the pull and a 140 mm mag base pad. I'm going to try and get another gun from Springfield and try the springs on an otherwise unmodified gun to see what the results are. Maybe Springfield oughta think about a .40 for limited!
Rob
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Starting to sound like a lot of gun for the money!!! I am glad we brought it out at a price that makes it a deal for any one wanting a high performance pistol.
I just came from the range, where I am currently practicing bullseye. BTW, I am terrible at it but after finishing with my highly tuned accuracy guns, ran through 3-5 shot strings of rapid fire with the 5.25. That is 5 shots in ten seconds, starting aimed at the target, ready to go. I scored 7-x's, 6-10's and 2-9's. I did this two handed, which aint legal for bullseye. Nonetheless I think that's a pretty good score! Especially for me.
The gun was not zeroed for a six o'clock hold, which I used, (I don't know why either, that's just how I shoot bullseye), 2 rounds are 1/4 inch above targets dead center and all the rest are low. Whole group is just under 3 inches and would easily be all tens if centered. OK I gotta say it, at the risk of sounding like a company man, this gun is awesome. I never expected or intended it to shoot this well? Not complaining, just been around for a long time and don't get this excited about a gun very often.
Just received and installed a 4.2 ounce guide rod from Canyon Creek Custom and can't wait to get it out for a little IPSC practice. Rich sent me a whole pile of cool stuff, springs to lighten the pull and a 140 mm mag base pad. I'm going to try and get another gun from Springfield and try the springs on an otherwise unmodified gun to see what the results are. Maybe Springfield oughta think about a .40 for limited!
Rob
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Just home from the range. It's hot here! Sighted in my 5.25 today after changing front sight to the .100 Dawson FO I'm used to. At 25 yards was able to keep all but 4 out of about 40 shots in the 4" black x ring of the NRA Bianchi cup target. Most of that was fired standing. My best groups were with the same 147 Montana gold bullet that shoots best out of all my factory XD and XDm barrels. Loaded with N320 at a 130 power factor for USPSA by Atlanta Arms, I then ran the target out to 50 yards and with the butt of the gun (magazine base pad) resting on the bench fired the last 5 rounds of that ammo I had left. The group measures right at 3.5 inches! To say I am surprised is an understatement! Normally to get that kind of accuracy you are gonna need a custom barrel, or at the very least the stock one refitted. I imagine after I have the barrel refit it will shoot as well or better. Aye Caramba! I'm liking this 5.25 more every time I shoot it. If I can get Kippi to help me I'll have some photos on this forum. I'm still kinda slow to this whole "interweb" thing.
Rob
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On XDm, the slide stop is positioned to make it supremely easy to reach without turning gun in hand. To see if it's the gun or your grip, shoot a couple mags where you are looking to make sure you are not touching the slide stop with your strong hand thumb or the area between your wrist and thumb on support hand, All this assumes a right handed grip.
Rob
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Tungsten Guide rod on it's way from Canyon creek, Replaced stock front sight .140 wide with .100 wide Dawson precision and Marty at Accuracy Speaks completed frame texturing today. Now I just need to get out and shoot it. It is very cool! I believe Springfield will soon release the pricing and availabilty.
Rob
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I am a stylish dude Chuck. Don't be jealous!! I'll put you on the list of my buddies who want my 5.25's. I Really like the gun, just dropped it off to Marty at Accuracy Speaks gunsmithing for the frame texturing that he has done on all my XD/XDm's. Now talking to Rich for a tungsten Guide rod.
Rob
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BTW, where did that picture of me holding my new S&W model 34, .22 pistol on my 12th bday come from? I don't remember that being there before? I suspect some collusion between Big Daddy Enos and my Mom. Don't make me break out the old stuff Of Brian!!
Rob
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Chuck makes great points all around. I'm just trying to figure out how not to send back the four 5.25's I have that were used in the demo's. My friends are all hot to get the things too and I can't even tell them where and when and how much! Maybe I can pry more info out of Springfield this week. If so I'll pass that along on the this forum.
Rob
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OK, time for you guys to get to work on my new gun. Scott, Daniel, Rich and anyone else in the biz, here is the challenge; drop in parts only, total reliability with standard primers, what can the trigger pull get down to. No stoning or tuning allowed, only bending springs. Remember, it's got to work all the time, even whilst totally ignoring a sane cleaning and maintenance schedule. Not fair but that's the rule!
I know where we can get with tweaking and tuning and black magic, but there is a legit market out there for someone who will only want to do parts swapping. Also you must include the prices of the pieces used, and no prototypes, unless your gonna make them available to us all.
I'm guessing springs only will get us around five lbs, parts changing maybe about four lbs.
Trigger pull feel needs to be a factor also, to include takeup, reset distance, over travel and actual sear release. The next test will be which, if any of these changes help a guy shoot better.
I think we can find out what the best bang for the buck changes are. I'll be glad to do the testing and comparison to stock, and I will try to measure an average of all these things on the 4 unmodified 5.25's I have here before I send them back.
Interesting note. At the demo on Saturday I had 15 of my Action target steel plates and silhouettes lined up next to each other, ten yards down range and the game was; gun loaded on table, hands on table not touching gun, on buzzer, grab gun and hit all the targets. One of them was BTW a little 5 inch disc that swings back and forth behind the head of an ABC zone silhouette. My best run was not with my 3 lb. trigger pull gun! It was with the BiTone 5.25 totally stock. 5.67 seconds. GI ball 124 grain 9 mm ammo.
OK guys, now is your chance to tell these guys what you as shooters want and for them to tell you if you can have it!!
Let the games begin!
Rob
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Amen Dohboy, Amen.
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BTW, the price thing. There never was a 5.25 at a Cabella's for $1400.00! Just to be clear, the 5.25 is not going to cost $600.00 more than a 4.5 XDm. I'm guessing more like the price of an adjustable sight install on a fixed sight XDm.
Rob
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Sorry Scott, I'm geetting old an senile!,
You make excellent points on all counts and are correct as usual on the weighing of the trigger. Which is why I always put it in the middle and just let it roll, instead of trying to get it to sit on the point and get a low number to brag about. The XDm I used for production and Steel Challenge when weighed on the tip is about 2 lbs, maybe a little less, but I don't consider that a valid measurement technique. BTW, If you shoot XDM or XD pistols you better get to know Scott Springer. He's a nice guy, which I can over look but also has vast experience and knowledge on these guns.
As for using the 5.25 for the Bianchi cup, I also shot a XD Tactical modified in exactly the same manor as what was described in the previous post. Same sights, barrel and trigger weight. The 5.25 is the length it is because of NRA action pistol rules. Yes, I want that extra .25 inch sight radius increase, 5.35 is the legal limit. Will that make the difference over the 5 in. you have? no. but the longer frame of the XDm allows me to get the magazine basepad on the ground for prone, making it both faster and steadier. It also holds the gun up higher to make it easier to see the sights at the closer distances. That is why I stood at everything but 50 on the practical and 25 on the plates. That will be a bigger difference than the sight radius difference. My only terrible score this year was at 50 prone as Istruggle to get the gun steady, since only my fat hand hits the ground. XDm frame solves that.
I used the Xd also because the Barrels in the stock xd, even when refitted, wouldn't shoot light bullets well enough. The barsto solved that problem.Now I'm going to want one for my 5.25. 147's shoot pretty good but I don't want to deal with the increased lead they cause on the mover. The sights on the 5.25 are also way better than the sights we used on the XD's this year. Much of the 5.25 is based on optimizing it for the Bianchi Cup production class. We are just going to have to get those barrels made.
For all the other matches, the stock barrel is excellent.
Now as far as the making the XDm like a 1911, that is what we are doing here with the whole Competition series concept. The development and tunability that exists for 1911 is what has made it the preferred platform to modify into something special. I think the XDm can go down the same road. The 5.25 is just giving you much more to start with.
Rob
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Mike, I don't know what that is, but I gotta have one! It looks like we can get rid of all these other pos's at last.
Rob
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There are factors here at play that may mean more than just the weight, but this may be interesting to you.
None of them are starting in the 4.5 lb range. When measured on my digital trigger scale, they are all too heavy for me! This is the results of measuring them with the scale rod centered on the trigger and letting it roll to wherever it goes when it clicks. The problem here is perception. A real light XDm trigger like the highly tuned one on my 5.25 will not lift 3 lbs. One unfired G34 just weighed 5lbs. 15 ozs. The g35 Dave Sevigney fixed up to be just like his production 34 weighs 4lbs. 8 ozs. The other g34 I just won at Bianchi came in at 6 lbs 1 ozs. This is lighter than the stock 5.25 I just weighed at 6lbs 15ozs. Yes stock to stock the XDm was heavier, but all are too heavy in my opinion. That we probably all agree on. An interesting note is the way they stack and break. Compared to stock, the hot rodded 5.25 trigger is really clean for this type of mechanism, not stacking and moving much before the snap. The tricked out g35 was longer in it's movement, but much lighter and more predictable than the unmodified glocks.
I know from experience that a set of powder river precision springs and sear make the stock XDm about 5 pounds and much cleaner than stock. That would compare with the stuff Dave put in my G35. I do have an XDm I have messed with extensively for the last couple years and it weighs 2lbs 9 ozs time and time again and breaks with the same clean feel of a good 1911 trigger, also with very short movement. It has worked perfectly for years and 10's of thousands of rounds, but has many, many of my hours of time in it. Not sure it is enough better than the 3 lb on the 5.25! It's nice to show off and brag about, but not really needed. I consider it the exception.
Length of movement and crispness can all be improved, but it is in this area that a tricked out Xdm is superior. But, I would also say that any of them with proper work will be good enough to compete with. Hell, Dave kicked my ass in L10 nationals with a gun pretty much like my g35! And last year at Steel Challenge, BJ Norris beat me like a gong with his M&P, so they are all going to be better when tuned. I'm just saying that it is no real trick to get a light, clean reliable XDm trigger job.
Yes I wish it was that way stock, but It it is still a fantastic gun. If you ever get to shoot one, I hope you'll like it as much as I do. Doesn't mean you gotta go out and get one, but it would be a nice companion to that G34! They can be friends and be different1
Rob
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Daniel makes a good point, about easy upgrades to the trigger. All these guns, XD/XDm included have a multitude of upgrade parts available. Like he said, you can drop in a few parts that cost roughly the same price for each of these and get improvement. But they do not all respond the same to those modifications. I'm not about to go out and tell you not to buy an M&P Pro or G34. These are great guns, the best their manufacturers offer. If you love them, then go on with your bad self! That's fine. Some of us are glad to finally get a Polymer pistol from Springfield designed more for the competitor than anything before offered.
If you step back and look at all this speculation, no one but the folks at the range today, the factory and a few writers and rep groups have even held this new XDm. And none of us know what it's going to cost. I believe the sights alone are going to be worth the price increase. If you are a dyed in the wool XDm, Glock or M&P fan, and you want to find something you don't like about the others, then of course you are going to. I have ALL of these models and know the strengths and weaknesses of each and can tell you without a doubt, all need trigger improvements to bring them to the ultimate performance level most competitors would require. So the trigger thing is becoming a dead horse. If you like the gun then great, if not O.K. too! The point of this gun is to give the competitor who wants to shoot a polymer pistol in many types of practical competition, or the casual or professional shooter a platform which will allow them to perform better.
I'm not trying to tell anyone their religion is bad. But if you look at what has been offered here, it's pretty cool. Again, not trying to make anyone mad, but this gun will perform, with that ominous trigger tuning, more like a custom 1911 than any polymer pistol. If that appeals to you, well then enjoy. Is it going to be cheap? depends on what that means. If I can get a pistol capable of winning the Nationals, then the price is immaterial. It's what I have been waiting for.
Rob
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Just back from Rio Salado demo. Lots of people turned out and shot the new 5.25's. It was hot! We finished early so I apologize to the gentleman who showed up as we were packing up to leave. Shot almost 3,000 rounds through 3 guns, no problems. When they got to hot to touch we put them in the ice chest and then just kept on loading mags. Not a single hitch as far as I saw. Now have shot a few hundred rounds through my gun and am only falling deeper in love! Going to have Marty at Accuracy Speaks do the grip texturing as soon as I see him.
Rich, I know what you aftermarket guys need to get on first. Many production class shooters have switched to front and rear Fiber optic sights, and one of them (Kippi, my wife) wants those two dots in the rear blade.
The longer slide and sight radius is very noticeable to me! Funny thing though, with all this talk about triggers and tuning, I shot my best run on our informal XDm challenge with the stock BiTone gun with the heavier trigger! Either way this is a great production gun, even before you hot rodders get a hold of it.
Rob
5,000 rnds through my 5.25
in Springfield (XD)
Posted
I thought we had flooded the market, the gun went on the USPSA list the week we started shipping! I'm sure we were a little caught off guard by demand, which has been sensational. I wasn't though...... This really helps us, shooters that want this type of gun. Management will monitor sales and response by the market and that will affect further production and development.
I'm not really the web browser type, but my interest in this gun is far beyond anything we have introduced before and I just wanna tell everyone about it!.
Lots of things had to fall in place for this to happen. It is a big deal to develop things like that sight in house. There's a reason no one else has done something like this before. I think it was worth the wait though.
I'm not as sure on the draw with the XDm yet as I am with the 1911 platform. Can't be too disappointed about this though, I've done what, about a Million 1911 draws for every XDm I've done in my life? It is getting there.
Splits between shots are the same on easy targets, a little slower on hard shots. I know others who are not this way. This is all about trigger weight for me. The trigger on the 1911's I use are very light when legal by rules. The XDm can't get to that level of shortness and lightness. It's better than anything else in it's class, but the 1911 is the gold standard. It's also in a different category. I am working on shooting the 5.25 faster and am making improvements.. Just sooooo long with the 1911. And of course it has the greatest trigger mechanism and feel of all the pistols we commonly shoot in competition. Funny, I haven't shot one since I received the 5.25?
Target acquisitions are the same. The pointing and index of the guns are so close I make no alteration in my technique.
Shooting production now! The other one I'm not sure, maybe my modified IPSC gun in open?
Rob