TGO
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Posts posted by TGO
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Ok, my 2 cents worth. It's just mechanical, the skills that allow you to perform well in practical shooting. Most shooters are not strong enough, fast enough, devoted enough and tough enough to attain goals. I'm one of them. Therefore I limit my goals to learning and performing skill and let that fall where it may when competing.
Athletes? Well, depends on your definition. Is a sumo wrestler an athlete/ If so then I may be, although at a low level physically. I'm fat, old, injured and damaged, but pretty strong and very agile considering my size. I focus very well for short periods of time and can process minute levels of information very fast for those short periods of time. I have great/exceptional hand eye coordination. I'm not sure what that makes me. I'm also very confident! :-) Others that have done well in this sport have some of those attributes, but not all of them and they have others I do not.
As to what it takes to make GM, that's just a numbers game and you can see the classifier scores that will get you that badge. Now, the skills to get that are what takes the effort. I have no idea if you have the stuff to do that, no one could. That you want to and are going to try is of utmost importance and the first step.
Just do not put too much stock in whether or not you make the grade. That's not important. Keep learning and improving and the class you reach will be less important than the gains you make while trying.
I don't know how to make you a GM, I do know you can find the road towards that goal very entertaining and fulfilling, regardless of whether you reach that GM destination.
Life's a garden, dig it!
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I didn't read all of this but see this issue in almost every shooter to some degree. As a rule, if the support hand is becoming dislodged it is because the gun moved rearward/upward and the support hand did not. Without this turning into a lesson, the support hand must stay in position and this means if the gun moves, so must the hand. The less it moves the less it will become dislodged.
To cause this to happen will require you to resist the guns moving more with the strong hand/arm by increasing dramatically the amount of pressure between the hands and the gun. All joints involved, wrist elbow and shoulder need to move as little as possible. Increase the pressure being exerted rearward by the support hand, and in response forward by the strong hand, and increase the closing pressure of both hands until you begin to limit your ability to manipulate the trigger. pinch hands inward towards each other, into the gun. What you can't do is relax, and control the gun. The stronger you are the better your control will be.
Most shooters can't hold the proper amount of pressures required to properly control a gun during an extended string of fire. That's ok though, as you seldom need to hold that kind of pressure for more than a few seconds.
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I don't understand?
Another thought would be to have revolver div. scored as minor,& when all scored list it 8 shot / 6shot. I shoot a 627 & a 625. I would perfer to down load to 150.P.F. I love the way those fat little slugs just fall in. Others could have their .38s cut for moon clips, or just stick with speed loaders. When the score sheets were posted everyone could see who shot with an 8 or 6 shot. Make sense?
You already see in the scores whether you shot Major or minor, so in affect this already is the case. Problem is there just need to be more scores! This has been discussed heavily in this thread but I do recognize we are over 450 posts so no one really wants to go back and read it all to see what's already transpired.
Basically I feel keeping the 6 major guns is the only way to add the 8 minor, and I think we should try adding them. If you went to minor only and added 8 shot guns, that would be the end of 6 shooters being competitive. This way may keep both competitive, adding capacity as an advantage to the minor and better points on peripheral hits to the major.
I think what we need is a way to bring in more scores, not just find ways to split up the ones we already have. Anything that complicates the scoring procedure too much is never gonna fly.
The goal is parity between Major and Minor and growth in the division.
Major is what it is, Minor is what it is. Changing those numbers really will not help any of this.
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Ok a little history. The whole major/ minor caliber thing was based on the stopping power of the cartridges as specified by the founder, Jeff Cooper. At the very beginning, before my involvement, there were just hits and misses. But as the study of the use of handguns for tactical use was developed, the power of the cartridge being used greatly varied the results of gunfights. Historical data too numerous to cover here including the Thompson/ LeGarde tests, Military and Law Enforcement studies and the then recent wartime experience were all factors in Coopers decision to vary the points scored by peripheral hits on the target due to power.
Remember this all started within a few decades of the end of WWII and Korean conflict, and during or towards the end of the Vietnam war. I'm not an historian but there was lots of case history and experience at the time and Major calibers were deemed better stoppers. This is where the whole Major Minor thing came from.
Power was deemed more important than magazine capacity. The matches reflected that and it was impossible to win at the major level shooting minor and only one world shoot was won using minor in divisions that allowed both, as I remember. This is as The founders intended. Higher capacity magazines were around but weren't heavily used as they really were not needed as the courses of fire were much lower in round count than now. Lower hit factors made points more important. Clock time mattered, but not as much as today and those hits in the c and d zones were much more damaging to a score than now.
The sport is based on the martial use of the handgun and a more powerful gun is deemed a better tool for the job, as long as the operator could use it effectively. This is to us old timers one of the more important aspects of this sport, something that sets itself apart from just target shooting. Without it we would be shooting .22's as they can hold more and kick less. They are however grossly underpowered for the theoretical use and therefore not relevant as other than training tools. It is this realistic requirement of equipment, at least in theory that makes IPSC/IDPA type competition and techniques the basis for any modern combat handgun training program. As the sport has matured it is more of a game now than just the realistic testing of equipment and training it started as, but the need to control a full power load is still the Vis in DVC.
Call me Grandpa....
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Me thinks the possibility of amending the rules allowing 8 minor into the existing division is rather easy and therefore an attractive proposition. It is also much more probable than adding any new divisions such as open or 6 minor only or 6 speed loader or whatever. Most of that is now legal and few are opting to use them. Minor8 is doable with little change to the rules. That was the the whole point.
All the stuff this thread has brought out has been very good. It shows a large interest in the health and well fare of the division. I'm glad to see such interest. The same arguments are being made over and over by the same posters. I know I have. Those that do not want a change and those that do all have valid points and have seldom changed their views. I want the division to prosper and do it without requiring wholesale changes. Some will argue that minor 8 is such. Maybe it is? But status quo has not taken care of the division. Let's try something.
Reality is that this may very well cool down after the Nationals and maybe no one will care then. I personally hope that's not the case but we will see. I will not care about SS or Revo as much as I do now as I will, as has been pointed out, have to go back to the divisions I'm required to shoot. But that's because production, limited L10 and open are upcoming. I will after those end late this year, go back to SS and revolver. By then I will have probably shot more revolver matches and trained than most. I am not typical. I am interested in the sport and it's health from the Nationals (which may be fixed) to the club level, which most assuredly isn't well. This sport survives at the local level. That has gotta be fixed.
So we run the Nationals where you are probably going to win shooting major regardless of the rules because of excellent course design. And competition at the local level is dominated by shooting minor 8. If we have many more shooters in the division, I'll take that. BTW, If you really want a test of your skill, try beating a good 8 shooter with your 6?
Either way if we get larger numbers at the clubs, and you can no longer win that level event with an 8 I'm ok with that, if we get growth. I for one and maybe Carmoney also, do not feel that you will have to have the 8 option.
I do fear that the results of the National will skew some views. I personally hope it is a shooting contest and not a track meet. The SS never has been. I'm sure that's gonna be perceived as me not liking big courses. That would be correct, if what you want is nothing but those. I have always liked the short courses, even when I was young and skinny and fast and was winning because of them. We used to take great pride in doing well at the nationals on the standard exercise stages. That has now gone the way of the dodo. Gonna warn you now, If I was a betting man, you are going to see a shooting match and not a track meet in Barry.
I also see a match that will be won by major 6. You can shoot minor 6 if you like, but you aint gunna win! Those are the 2 choices. Therefore it will not matter how well or poorly a stage is set up regarding number of reloads required. You also will not be able to absorb lots of dropped points. This is why SS has never been won over all with minor even though it has a 2 round advantage. Not because the stages do not have some places where the little guns are better. The ladies match is completely dominated by the minor 10's.
And yes there have been stages that the 8 major has had to do extra loads compared to the minor 10. It should, that's how all equipment becomes competitive.
How this apply's to the revo match will be that the stages ought to be setup to the division being shot. this can be done this year. We shouldn't do a pile of standing loads, hell there shouldn't be a pile of loads in any stage. This is a match designed for the revolvers and I for one think forcing a standing load indicates either a mistake by the shooter or the course designer. I'll tell you this, the stages I hate the most shooting revo are the ones that have me loading for more time than I'm shooting and moving! Those are also the SS matches I hate the most.
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Wasn't USPSA then. IPSC USA.
The Para frames were definitely around in the middish 80's. John Dixon had one very early on. Made out of beryllium copper.
Jerry's gun was built by George Heuning as I remember, I'll ask him.
Jim Boland gun that Jim Zubiena 1st shot used P7 M13 mags.
P9's were in 89 I think. Doug won WS in Australia in 90 with scoped P9 in 9x21.
Georgino built one for DK and I had 2. Mine were first. George needs to tell you how they all came together.
Tommy Campbell was shooting prototype M59 in the 80, maybe earlier. 9 minor.
There's more....
I remember '92 I had just ordered a custom P9 9x21 because that's what you guys had been using. Then you all showed up at the '92 North Americans with the Caspian Hi caps....I was devastated...lol
I'm sorry! Those custom shop P9's were awesome. I fired the fastest 15 load 15 load 15 of my life with one of those. That they didn't hold up real well to tons of major was my only issue at the time. When we stopped importing them Springfield wanted me to shoot something else. I still have 2 of them...
The Caspians were nice but I only used those a couple seasons. Then I shot the McCormick/TRI/STi modular5 guns for a while before we made our own hi-cap frame.
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If you want to shoot a 8 shot why not shoot icore.
Good idea!
I do shoot my 8 shooter, in ICORE, Once a month and if I want, every tuesday night at Rio Salado at tuesday night steel in revolver class.
Maybe what we need to do is change this whole thread to getting USPSA Revo shooters into ICORE. Then they'd all buy 8 shooters and everybody would be happy?
Interesting that Steel Challenge, ICORE, Bianchi Cup and TNS allow 8 shot in revo. But If I wanted to shoot USPSA/IPSC, which is completely different most of the time, I shoot my 625 to get the major scoring since I am limited to 6 rounds fired only. That's the only time I use them, except for excessive dry firing.
The games are all different if you are trying to be competitive.
BTW, Just put a Ti cylinder in my backup beater 625. Also just bought a new 5" 625 barrel for it. Funny, I have to have a dry fire gun to save the wear on my match 625's. My 627 supers don't seem to beat the hell out of the cylinder stop notches like the 6 .45 does?
How do I get Randy to do the trigger before May? That's the real dilemma here. Now working up minor loads for the 625. Just to practice and save a little wear and tear on my old, tired, fat, lazy hands.
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Here we go again for just a little more.
TGO, You are Personally invited to the 2013 Memphis Charity Challenge November 1 and 2.....Please bring both your 625 and your 627 (by the way Sprinfield has been the Match Sponsor from the beginning and you have always had a free slot. I guess it just hasn't been forwarded to you)
USPSA as it is now for a Revolver to shoot is a challenge to make a 6 round capacity gun fit into a game that is based on 8 shots per general shooting area unless the stage is designed by someone who puts a bunch of thought into the stages to make them " NO GUN FRIENDLY"
To shoot a Revolver in USPSA now 1 of the challenges it to be able to work in the several reloads where they are not in a "Good Spot" to do so. That is part of the game as it is and as a MD and Stage designer for the MCC my stages are quite more "revolver friendly" but they are still USPSA stages with all the same challenges.
Good stage design will help keep a 6+ round gun shooting minor competitive with the 6 major guns. Until the Stage designers learn how to make the stages "no gun friendly" the 6+ minor guns will have a small advantage.
The 2012 Memphis Charity Challenge had a smaller showing than the previous matches. Several reasons, one the Steel Challenge was scheduled on the same weekend, but there were other reasons I was told. I even told Matt Griffin to stay home and let his arm heal after the nationals where he competed with the other 16 revolver shooters.....Where was I for Nationals? @ home, I've been to 7 National Championships I know where I stand with everyone and now that I've hurt my "Good hip" I didn't see the need to spend $3000 (What is costs me in lost time @ work, ect. ect.) to get hit by a bouncing ricochet or shoot the same place I always have.
I would love to see anything to help the division grow. allowing 6+ to shoot minor and not have to reload after 6 shots is cool with me as I voted no change for me. Would I go buy one? NO......I'm gonna kick your ass with MY 646----Notice I didn't say 625 ??? and make you like it (after I get a hip replacement and can move again "Hopefully)
If the powers that be decide not to allow 6+ guns, maybe drop the Change to open for more than 6 before the reload to a procedural per shot fired after 6....I'm good with that too. I'm still gonna kick your ass with my 646 and make you like it.
USPSA has its own UNIQUE challenges for a revolver that ICORE doesn't and that is why I shoot USPSA with a revolver. ICORE is around where I live (Gotta drive but I can get there) but I still choose to shoot USPSA.
Oh Bye the way the 2013 Memphis Charity Challenge will be held November 1 and 2 We may be doing some changes, pay attention later at the Match listings.
I voted NO change for me. I'll still shoot my 646 Major, might shot it Minor but I'll still be doing everything in my abilities to KICK YOUR ASS !!!!!
TGO Thank you for your help !!!!!
Sam Keen ONE of the 15 ish Revolver Grand Masters .
I know I said I'd leave the thread, but I've been wrong plenty of times before. Thanks for coming in, Sam.
Finally a reason to smile and chuckle in this thread!! Matt, we knew you were never really gone and Sam, do I gotta "like it"? I usually don't!!!
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One thing about shooting production with a 627, why I've never done it, my holster that I bought for ICORE isn't legal for Production.. I'm sure there's others in the same situation. So Revolver and just counting to six is fine for me.. but I would prefer to go with the procedurals for extra shoots vs going to Open
Minor vs Major, I'd leave the vote to the real revo guys too - get one vote for each match you shot revo in, in 2012
I get about 10 votes this year already!!
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Always good points, MIke. Let me ask this...
If allowing 8-minor would put the serious competitors on a more even playing field, where it's all about pure shooting capability rather than who's hands are in pain, wouldn't that be a good thing for the game?
Wouldn't 6-minor do the same thing*? And, it would still allow for the aspect of gaming the stage from a 6-shot perspective.
* (not saying I support that...I have a hard time coming off DVC)
Me too, I like the Vis with lots of diligentia and a good dose of celeritas.
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Flex, if you gotta send me packing I understand. I just couldn't listen to any more of this conspiracy theory. This is becoming too hard for me to watch. Jerry being attacked is unjust and although I TOO want to beat him do not see this as the proper place to attack him personally and feel compelled to defend him in his absence.
TGO,
I'm not going to moderate you (others might, or not). I'm in deep in this discussion, so I'll step away from that.
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As to when this idea came up and who's credit/fault it is for a stand alone Revo Nats...
Well, I don't know who came up with the idea first. I do know that it has been talked about on this forum for years now. It wasn't a new idea at the SS Nats last year. If Sam would have got elected, we would have likely saw this match in Memphis. If Mike would have been re-elected, I don't know if we would have saw it at all. Phil and you getting the idea executed with the great folks at PASA is awesome! It really is fantastic. Hats off to you for pushing the idea and putting your influence behind it.
Good work!
I have no doubt this is not a new concept for sure! That it wasn't gonna happen under Mike is obvious as it hadn't in all his years as President and I can only assume the concept had been brought up to him. It is really Phil who deserves the credit, along with the stand alone Production Nationals this year.
My inclusion into this event was as I explained. Others may have talked to Phil previously, I just know how the events unraveled as of The SS Nationals last year. Phil thought it was a good idea, that's all.
Thanks for let me vent!! It's just on a personal level, Jerry is my only HERO in this game that is still shooting. What he does and has done is nothing short of miraculous. Of that I assume most agree.
Matt, I'll give you $100.00 apiece for the whole lot!!
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Flex, if you gotta send me packing I understand. I just couldn't listen to any more of this conspiracy theory. This is becoming too hard for me to watch. Jerry being attacked is unjust and although I TOO want to beat him do not see this as the proper place to attack him personally and feel compelled to defend him in his absence.
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This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?
Ok this one has put me over the top. Time for some truth. Cliff, that is total garbage. Mike, if you gotta kick me off this forum OK. I can take it no more, I gotta tell the story.
This was in the works long before the Nationals in Vegas last year. The whole stand alone Revolver Nationals and 8 shot minor was brought up by yours truly last year at the SS Nationals because I wanted to have a chance for me and others who never get to shoot revo at the nationals because of other commitments. I guessed it would also bring in a lot of shooters to the Revo Nationals. It appears that was a good idea by the number of preentries for the Revolver Nationals. So if you wanna blame some one for this happening to you, IT IS ME!
After I was DQ'd for dropping my gun. Phil, myself as the one who presented the idea to him and Dick Metcalf, owner of Pasa, had an impromptu meeting while scores were being tabulated. That discussion showed enough promise for Phil to look into it. Jerry wasn't even there. Maybe he does want this but I can guarantee you this is not a plan against you to make Jerry more competitive. This is ridiculous but does show what you are really feeling. AND what your motivation for no change is really about.
The whole idea was to find an avenue to bring more shooters into USPSA revolver class. I gotta go bedtime now, I'm too old, fat, slow and my old eyes are too tired to continue this. I'm really looking forward to Barry.
The post earlier by someone saying this is making them sad is also making me sad, and annoyed.
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Cliff,
I'm with you, I'm right there with you. If I came across confused I'm sorry. I like revolver the way it is, I like major. I didn't start hanging out with Phil Griggs and watching Matt, Mike, Jerry or you shoot to persuade people otherwise. It was for the sake of argument against the possibility of a forced change. I regret my clumsiness and not coming across more intelligent.
Ed
That wasn't just for you Ed (didn't know it was you either). A lot of this discussion had to do with shooting minor and that major was too much. The rules as is accommodate that. In IDPA, you have no choice, run moons you shoot major or you get DQ'ed. In USPSA, the shooter has a choice. You lose points but you gain speed in minor. That is a part of the game just like planning a stage. I am going to shoot to my to my strengths. If I can't handle major then I better be accurate. Allowing 8 shots is one thing and I'm against that but would probably still shoot. Forcing minor goes against the basics of USPSA, DVC. By forcing 8 shot minor, we are just shooting ICORE. Why not use all this energy and effort as a platform to start more ICORE clubs and I'm sure USPSA will get some crossover.
Who is saying you have to shoot 8 shot minor? I'm saying you can't beat an 8 minor with a 6 major at a match that is very far from 6 shot fair. Notice I said fair, not neutral.
So who cares? Your a tough guy and like the 6 major recoil, shoot it! Who's trying to get you not to? Are you now saying let's have 8 major instead of 6? You think that's gonna help a 625 shooter? The concept is 6 major and 8 minor may offer the chance for some who do not now shoot the division to try it. It's OK to not want the change, but let's stay on topic. This is about as convoluted as a thread can get about now...
And just to make a point everybody, if a goal here is to beat Jerry, adding optic revolver, Major or minor would probably guarantee his reign for a lot, lot longer. He can contest the Steel Challenge in open class with a damn near stock 627 with a scope on it!
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+1000% this is what the Revolver game is about IMO.
Our local matches are competing against each other to see who has the highest round count or so it seems. 6 stages 175-200 rounds. I love this the more shots the more fun. Even started seeing some 34-36 round count stages.
As Matt said in a local match I average 3-4 standing reloads and 1-2 of those are the usually required reloads for the classifier.
Sometimes I screw up and miss a steel or a plate on the star and have to do a reload but that is all on me.
Rarely ever do I get locked down into a standing reload but it happens and I just do it and go on. All the other revolver shooters have to do it to.
I admitt we have some really good MD's that set up fantastic courses of fire BUT they are NEVER Revolver netural, and I don't want them to be.
Why does everyone hate standing reloads? It is part of the game.
Even open shooters and limited shooters mess up and do a standing reload.
A 32 round field course will require 5 reloads with a 6 shot gun and 4 with a 8 shot gun. Thats only 1 more reolad.
I know the 8 shot guns *flow* better but if I wanted *flow* I would shoot any of the other divisions. Flow=EASY and to me at least boring compared to Revolver.
Well put. What I'm getting from the 8 shot folks is that revolver is too hard the way it is with major and reloads. Is that the goal, to make USPSA easier? Will that get more shooters? Lets have a rimfire division. There are plenty of people who shoot rimfire that have be excluded from USPSA not to mention bringing in the kids and lets face it, if its for the kids, it has to be a good idea.
Really cliff? Do you mean that or are you going for shock value? Do you know what this sport is based on, and do you really wanna go to .22's when you do not want 8 minor? This is starting to get silly. Sorry for being abrupt but I gotta laugh.
Anyway...I just shot a match tonight that was decidedly not 6 shot neutral. In 5 stages of which 2 were 6 reload 6, I did 3 extra loads with the Major 6 and 3 standing loads. I did only one standing with the 8 minor, to avoid an extra load in a very short move. I dropped huge amounts of points but was much faster with the 8 on 2 stages and about the same on the other field course. Minor 8 beat Major 6 by 3-4 percent. I won the match with my SS minor 10 and can tell you for those thinking about it, to be competitive in production with a wheel is going to be tough. My revo's were 70? percent of my SS. No penalties with any. I feel I shot both revolvers about the same. Botched one load with each. never had an extra round with either and had a clicker with the 625 causing me to be a second slower on a stage after cycling 5 more times to get the 6th shot off. Gotta say, the results are pretty close considering... I'm hoping Brad can give you more details on this.
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From Rob's post:
John Dixon's Para framed hi cap was a little ahead of this I think. Someone oughta ask him. Those frames were kinda crappy at the time and no one else wanted one, but they did improve them dramatically very soon after. They had a second generation model that was much thinner and better recieved. I'm thinking Dixon's was a .45 around 1985-86. Not real sure.
My post
I watched John Dixon shoot the copper berylllium framed Para in the 1986 ( I think) Texas Challenge near Austin Texas. It was in .45acp and he had received the frame about a week before the match. He slapped it together and probably beat everybody there. He dominated our area back then although Chip McCormick would occasionally show up at that match and a guy named Jeff ? would give him a run for his money. Not long after that guys were building .38 supers on the Para frames and having magazines handmade at $125 a copy in 1987-1988 money.
that would be jeff wassum.
Don't know about Jeff, But do know about John Dixon.
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Right. Give them a chance in a provisional category in L-10 or production. They will be recognized as high revo in the division and be counted. If there are enough, there will be a production or L-10 revo national champion.
We are now able to count participation, we haven't completely killed a division as we know it , and if the number warrant it, we can make changes. We will have actual data; not just talk.
This seems like the obvious choice to me.
I think the point is they don't wanna shoot them in another division they are not competitive in. They wanna shoot it in revolver. I agree we should try it as a provisional, but it should be in revolver division.
We are working on a match to do just this in a couple weeks. Be interesting how many show up to shoot the 6 major compared to those that show up to shoot 8 minor. There will be more in minor for sure as most shooting major will shoot both, but many have already stated they are only gonna show up and shoot the minor portion.
This was originally devised just to test out the Major6 v minor 8 thing. Will let all know the results.
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So I wonder what TGO, Nils, and Sara were doing on Friday before the WSSSC?
Nils I don't know, but Sara and I were shooting the Western States Revolver Challenge!! We both have visions of revolving grandeur in our minds
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If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.
The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?
A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.
BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.
My point was too subtle, please let me expand.
If a bunch of icore guys started showing up with 8 shot revos to shoot Production, they would get noticed.
Eventually, the BOD might start to think "Hey we gotta find a better place for these 8 shot revos to play"
Overall / unofficial results would show how they stack up against 6 shot 'major' revos.
Maybe they make revo-8 a 'category' or a sub-Division, or put them in with the 6-guns.
Its a chicken and egg issue, they are going to have to show up first, in significant numbers, to get anything changed.
I doubt USPSA is going to make changes to see if they show up.
BTW, didnt JM shoot Production Natl's with an 8 shooter a couple of years ago?
That has been my point for the last 5 years this conversation has been going on. If you want to make a change, show up and shoot and if there are numbers the powers that be will address it. The only effort I have seen so far is guys posting from behind their computers. If you want a change, show up and be counted.. "Talk is cheap and it takes money to buy whiskey," to quote Dave Moss.
Jerry did shoot production nats a few years back. He thought it would be good practice for the Revo match the second half of the week. They don't change the stages much from match to match.
I think many do show up and shoot the revolvers. Some shoot 625's as do I and are counted. Others shoot L10 with the 8 shooters and go completely unnoticed as being a revolver shooter. I feel those guys oughta be counted as revolver shooters and those I spoke to said they would, and more often, shoot uspsa revolver division if the gun they want to shoot were legal and competitive.
They are willing to shoot uncompetitively in L10 just to shoot the 8 shooter. There are many more of them that might also. I'm just saying we oughta find out by giving them the chance.
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Rob, I didn't say change everything. I said let set up some provisional categories so we can see who really wants to shoot what before we change revolver division. Why not get some actual evidence that the change will work other than guys sitting at computers many of whom probably have not shot a major match. Creating provisional categories allows shooters to vote by showing up without altering anything other than having a few extra plaques. I am advocating not changing anything until we have evidence it will help. This whole thing is starting to sound like, we will read the bill after we pass it.
There is not reason to believe adding 8 shot guns to the mix will increase participation at nationals. I think we know the problem from your remarks. You like revo but would shoot almost anything else if there was a choice. I know Shannon Smith feels the same way. Having a stand alone match solves that. Having it after the Classic is even better because all you guys are already there. Why do we have to do anything else right now??
I agree 1000% Cliff. It will not affect the Nationals. That is probably already fixed.
Think we should do exactly as you said about trying this out first. I'm just ready to go now.
As for how much I'm gonna get to shoot revo, you are right in that I'll shoot other divisions before revolver at major matches. On the club level it is different. I've shot and will be shooting as much revo as possible around here before Barry.
I like the lower recoil of the minor but am not willing to give up the major points until I get a round capacity advantage, IF that ever happens.
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This is awesome. Jerry the Merciless!! I guess I really didn't see him as evil, but I like the idea??All I know is that I want this as my shirt:
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I wish all the matches could be run in a manner that no defined amount of shots are required from any position and the COF designers understood or cared about keeping it balanced. Although we have lots of shooting around here, I can see why clubs other than my home one have IDPA shooters and we do not. Do you really wanna do 7 reloads with your 625? Not many here do...
Is the goal to reduce reloads?? Will that bring more people??
Yes, since the guys shooting L10 with there 627's now would be in revolver instead.
Reloading is a skill that that with practice can give you an edge if you are better then the next guy. I don't like to think that if we make it easier, more will shoot it.
Regardless, it will.
I know we have a poll here but how many of these guys shoot nationals?? There are more than 17 votes. I know the guys who come out and shoot the local matches are important to the sport but are we going to completely change the division so the guy up there can see his name with revolver next to it. Have the match director put you in revo. Who is going to care??
The Rules??
As Rob said, this effects the shooters at the top greatly. We are talking about nationals here but it will effect every Area and sectional I shoot. I shot the area 2 last year vs Bagakiss and Rich W. They would have won with their 8 shots easily and I would have stayed home. For everyone who just shoots club matches, lets make a rule that match directors can put anyone in any division they want at club matches.
So why have any rules then?
It bothers me that people would change something like this so they can shoot 2 more shots or see their name with different words next to it one Sunday a month.
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Here is an Idea, lets make a revolver category in every division. Open, production, Limited, L-10, and SS. Provisional for 3 years and see who comes out and shoots. We might find out there is a big need for open revo, who knows?? We might also find out that outside of club matches, nobody does any of it and we have not destroyed what is the revolver division we have now.
Wait, you don't want to change one thing so instead you want to change everything?
I can only say I am but a humble bottom feeder, but own more revolvers than anyone I know. Having the Nationals separate is the most important thing. We have that now. The next step is to get local club participation to a level that the division will prosper.
NRA Action shooting is so hard that while the Nationals (Bianchi Cup) is well attended, there is very little activity outside of that one match. NRA Action Shooting Has responded to that by adding a new beginner level course. Not necessarily for beginning shooters, but easy enough to entice other than Master level shooters to come out.
Revo in USPSA needs something like this, a shock to the system to draw attention too and get more shooters into the division.
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I can't beat Carmony at a USPSA event with any revolver if he's got a production gun. Unless he sucked....I have recently shot a couple Rio Tuesday Night Steel matches and though I used the permitted 8 shooter, was no where close to the finishes I expect with any other equipment, including my normal 8 round SS division guns. I shot pretty well a couple times also. The loading, whether on the move or not and the speed and attendant accuracy I can achieve far, far favor the autoloader. Again, that that was at equal capacity.
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Again, FWIW, I do enjoy the inherent difficulties of six shots, that's one of the main reasons I shoot a revolver. The other is so that I can try and beat Jerry Miculek, since I decided I couldn't beat Rob Leatham at the SS Nationals with a 1911, as they are much less lefty-friendly than a revolver. Both have since been beaten but I stay with the revolver because it suits my love of overly-complicated things.
I realize that I am NOT the target audience if you want to try and capture "the typical shooter."
Matt, do not under value your role in this. Not sure what a typical shooter is anymore. I probably care more what You, Jerry, Mike and Cliff think than anyone else. As the ones who are at the top of the division (and others I'm just not acquainted with) you have the most to gain or lose from issues regarding the wheel. I just think more folks would shoot them if there were an easier option than 6 shot major. Change is always scary and as proven in the last 5 years, not always a good thing. But if we evolve into something with more participation, that should be good?
Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?
in Revolver Forum
Posted
You are correct. This will be the first of what we hope will be A stand alone Revolver Nationals that grows to hundreds of shooters in the future.