TGO
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Posts posted by TGO
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So, the idea is to entice ICORE shooters in to get the revolver numbers up?
I think the idea is to get the activity up in revolver dividion. IRC shooters are a good group to entice, as are IDPA revolvers shooters. I think we have pretty much agreed the 8 round minor would make our game more appealing to ICORE. Bottom line; ICORE will come although who knows how many, if we allowed them to shoot all 8 rounds their guns carry without moving them out of revolver division.
IDPA is another story. They are more about minimalism and use what they deem to be more "practical" non game oriented equipment and courses of fire. I am neither here or there on this as they are all games, just different focus points.
The revo guys in IDPA are already shooting some of the same stuff as USPSA regarding guns but have a 4" barrel length limit. Plus their holsters and speedloader/moon clip holders and permitted quantities of those differs. Smith and Wesson dropped the 5" barreled of the 625 to a 4" because of IDPA's rules. Is it time to talk about getting them in now?
They will need more clip holders but that is relatively easy to take care of. If getting them out takes shorter stages on the average, I'm ok with some of that. I'm not alone in thinking 32 round stages should be fewer in number than medium or small stages in a proper match, but that is another issue.
Maybe Revo is bigger in IDPA BECAUSE there are no 32 round stages.
Point is, we want anyone who can to shoot. ICORE is just one group, but they may very well be the largest in terms of members, of organizations using revolvers.
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Wouldn't 8-shot make the Revolver guys as dumb as the rest of us? At 6 rounds, they have to figure out smart ways to game the stage. With 8, they just reload whenever they move...like the bottom feeders.
I think loading on the move and conserving rounds to avoid standing loads is also part of the game. I don't really see what the problem with that is?
Another point brought up in these discussions is the challenge of trying to beat a higher performance division with a lower one. I judge my SS scores with the overall match winners. I'm trying to get better so I'm chasing the furthest carrot! Revo shooters are doing that at every mixed match.
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I stand by my oft-repeated contention that moving from a division where only three or four guns are possibly competitive to a division where only a single gun is competitive is a negative, and that the addition of two more rounds fundamentally changes the revolver game when shooting USPSA stages. I invite anyone in my area that wants to shoot minor 8-shot to come to the Silver Creek match and shoot with me in revolver division. We can start generating data right then and there, and I'll talk Lee or Dave into tabulating the scores as Revolver and not Production. Our matches are usually 32-round burners, so it should be weighted as heavily towards the 8-shots as possible.
For that matter, I wonder if they would let me shoot through twice, once with a 625 and once with a 627. In the name of science, of course.
Glad to have Matt in this. I would be doing the twice through thing here if we weren't having 70-90 shooters showing up for our matches. I just don't wanna be there that long, I'm old after all!
Just for interest sake, I have considered shooting 6 minor, but have found out I can't count to 6 reliably. I just shoot the 8 at ICORE and Tuesday Night Steel and the 6 at IPSC.
Only thing I disagree with you on here is thinking there is more than one competitive gun in USPSA revolver division. we have a couple shooting 6 minor, but I do not think you can be truly, not just theoretically competitive with it.
BTW, I can easily design a match that would be USPSA legal and we would not choose 8 minor over 6 major. Thanks for joining in. I value your opinion as one of the super 17!
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Rather than "discuss", I think the Revolver shooters of USPSA need to show USPSA that we want growth. The standalone Nationals with good attendance is one way (wish I could be there). Another might be to put a proposal before the Board on ways to encourage growth...
Okay, here is one idea..... Take a major match, and I think Sam Keen's Memphis Charity Challenge would be a great choice. Make a provisional rule change NOW for that match, say 7/8 shot minor. Advertise and promote it heavily, both by USPSA and by the revolver community Then after the match, review its impact. Then based on that impact, proceed. Either with a provisional rule change for all of USPSA or by returning to the drawing board.
This sounds like a good idea?
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If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.
The fact that they do not is because it would be virtually impossible to be competitive in USPSA or IDPA. Which is why if they want to shoot Production, they enter with a more suitable, division legal gun. Only Miculek should consider doing that, and even he would choose something else. Apples and oranges. It's not steel challenge or Bianchi we are talking about. Revo shooters like to do things the hard way but they aren't crazy!! Are you Mike?
A 10 shot semi auto with trigger moving .250 in. or less and a pull weight as little as 2 lbs that is twice as fast and easy to reload is just easier to shoot. We are trying to help the division, how it stacks up against others is less important.
BTW, it's pretty awesome that there so much interest in this issue. Makes me feel there will be a long future for the children of the wheel. Thanks for everyones input, regardless of which side you may be on. I hope Strader gets to read some of this.
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I like the idea of 8 shot minor and would sure support it.
One thing that bothers me though is the comparison to Single Stack and how the major 8 is still king. I sure don't feel that it would still rule the roost if the rules were changed to allow 10 shots per position instead of 8...
---Bruce Schmidt
I agree! Thats's why SS is kept 8 shot Neutral and revolver should be 6 shot, whether or not 8 shooters are allowed. I think that would allow more options and make both choices viable options. Remember, you don;t have to have all 6 shot positions to be 6 shot neutral.
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I hate these forums when real names are not used. I would like to know who is saying what! Maybe why I do not frequent them...
Anyway, as a closet revolver lover I would like to shoot the Nationals and want it to matter. Having 17 shooters at a National is a sad testament to something. What, I am not sure, maybe that the system is broken. Obviously having a stand alone Nationals is the right thing to do, if having more participation is the goal. I suppose the best shooters in their favorite divisions are in attendance regardless but we can't even have class awards with last years turnout. I recognize that 500 shooters at the Nationals may not change who won. Matter of a fact I'm pretty sure it wouldn't. Plenty of good shooters do not attend major matches, the best though almost always do. So in my opinion, keeping it the way it is will indeed give us a great champion, but not cause growth. We need growth to sustain any division for the future. All of them.
I know I am an outsider, being a bottom feeder, but I'm very excited about the next Revolver Nationals. I'm fine with shooting a 625. Hell, Julie already broke it in for me.
I can only base my opinions on my experience. There are a lot more shooters at the IRC and IDPA Nationals than the USPSA Revolver Nationals. I'd love for them to all want to get together and have it out! Wouldn't that be a great match, see who's Kung Fu is the best?
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I don't think we wanna push for a new division, open revolver when we can only get 17 to the nationals. This 8 shot minor thing is just a modification to an existing division. it is going to be real hard to convince the board of USPSA directors that we need a new division until we prove we are gonna support what we have now.
This whole 6 shot neutral thing can be handled by making any revolver only matches comply with no round count at a single shooting position more than 6 unless it is greater than 8. simple. I'm not saying I would shoot major, but if the shots were hard enough and there were partial targets, I might find it difficult to select minor if I was making the same number of standing reloads as I would with major. I like points! (Said as Dax Shepard in "Idiocracy")
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I have a question for Rob. How many of the top 10 shooters were shooting the 8 shot in this match? Richard Bretour did well to finish 3rd if most of the top 10 were shooting 8 shots. With all the competitor having equal skills the 8 shot will prevail. A higher skilled 6 shot shooter may be albe to beat a lesser skilled 8 shot shooter. But he, or she starts with a known disavantage. rdd
1 Leatham, Rob L684 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1275.8346 100.00%
2 Carmoney, Mike A23819 M Revolver Minor N N N N 1124.7931 88.16%
3 Brethour, Richard A59928 U Revolver Major N N N N 1034.8673 81.11%
4 Schmidt, Kyle L2820 U Revolver Minor N N Y N 1031.4066 80.84%
5 Stieber, Jason A44233 B Revolver Minor N N N N 1017.7030 79.77%
6 Schrock, Brian A76156 U Revolver Minor N N N N 1014.3741 79.51%
7 Pickett, Vic A16491 A Revolver Minor N N N N 967.1095 75.80%
8 Furbee, Dan A20570 B Revolver Minor N N N N Senior 965.5866 75.68%
I believe all on that list shooting Minor were 8 shooters.
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If the match is
The match was not 6 shot neutral and as well as he shot it was impossible for him to overcome the standing reloads he was forced to do regardless of scoring major.
Based on this, I think anyone wanting to be competitive in revolver would have to leave their .45 in the safe and buy a 627.
Yes a match setup to be 8 shot neutral is gonna be tough for the 6 shot major guns. The Western States Revolver Challenge was just the Western States Single Stack Championship shot with revolvers. That's why the 8 shooters dominated. This just points out that a revolver specific match needs to be kept 6 round neutral. This doesn't mean you have 6 shots at every position. You just do not have 7,8 13, 14, 15 and 16 shot positions. Then theoretically the 6 shooters are equal. The course can be designed so both have to load. I still would like to have the 8 shooters have a chance, where right now there is no way a 6 shot minor is going to be competitive. You can try but history shows you will not win.
I hope we don't make it a 627 only class, but they oughta be competitive. As long as the COF designers keep both in mind we can use whatever you like.
In SS they keep the courses 8 round neutral, per the rules. even though the 10 shot minor's have some advantages. In events other than the Nationals, either can win. At the SS Nationals, minor never has won as few of us are willing to give up the greater loss of points to get the 2 extra rounds. The same may be the case with revolver, if the COF is well designed. I don't know. I just wanna get those ICORE shooters who have already shown they are willing to go to a big match, come to ours.
All this is for the future of course as this years match is set to be under the existing rules. I'm willing to bet there are going to be a lot of 625's in Barry This Year!!
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Rob Leatham, Mesa High class of 79, Arizona
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Interesting to note is at RioSalado my home club, we have I believe more matches per month than anywhere in the world. We routinely get 1-3 revolver shooters per match at the USPSA and Tuesday night steel matches, but the monthly ICORE draws 40'ish? Currently the most active revolver group is ICORE by far. The concept of allowing 8 shot minor is to see if we can get some of those 8 shooters to the USPSA matches. The Western States Revolver Challenge was a test to see what people were going to shoot if they were not required to use 6 shot Major. With the exception of Rich Brethour who was shooting major as a control test, everyone else shot what they wanted. The match was not 6 shot neutral and as well as he shot it was impossible for him to overcome the standing reloads he was forced to do regardless of scoring major.
All that being said, we had 40 or so shooters show up with little or no prior notice, including many who usually shoot ICORE exclusively. Vic Pickett in particular replaced his normal optical sight on his 627-4 with the factory irons just to give it a try. BTW, they were only allowing 45 shooters into the revolver match as we were shooting on RO day. So technically we were full.
For sure we will find out this year if there is a strong USPSA contingent willing to support a stand alone Revolver National. Me thinks our little match here was a success and that we had out of staters take the time and effort to shoot says the 8 shot minor thing just may have some merit?
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Thanks Chuck, that's what i thought. Going to be some very interesting things coming around this year! Better...?, different... yes!
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Ok, so what are the rules gonna be now? I get the discussion on bullet diameter for major but what are the rest of the rules? Barrel weights ok? Is it basically no porting and no optics?
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GOOD THOUGHTS EVERYBODY. Still don't see what the issue with hotel rooms in the area is? We used to hold the big Nationals at PASA and housing everyone was never a problem. I guess if you are looking for a reason not to go you can find one.... Me thinks there is already going to be the good problem, too many people trying to enter! That's way more preferred to having only 20-30 show up!! This is starting to get exciting!!
Rob
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Not being a smarty pants here, but what exactly is a stupid 6 round neutral match? And what makes one of those and how should it be? just not that in tune with the revo crowd right now? Pardon my ignorance....
Rob
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Just noticed how appropriate the picture Brian used for my postings now is. Thats my 12 bday, 1973, and my first gun, a Smith and Wesson model 34, 22/32 kitgun in .22 LR with 4 inch barrel. I still have it and I'm looking pretty cool!!! Is that some kind of sign?
Rob
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The Memphis thing sounds cool and I'm surprised I hadn't heard of it before?
I agree the match should be a test for the shooters, and reloading like in SS is a huge part of the challenge. Let USPSA know how you feel about the round count thing. I'd have thought you would have wanted to keep the same idea as SS and not do a bunch of forced standing reloads! I don't wanna have to carry 30 moon clips and shoot 32 round courses of fire. But that's just me and I like the short courses of fire that put a premium on execution. Keep in mind I'm predominantly a bottom feeder so what you guys want is more important than my opinion!
Those that attend the match have the opinion I'd be most interested in. Like voting, if you don't, your opinion doesn't carry as much weight as someone who does!
Different breed? Absolutely! That's what I like about it! This is something new and scary for USPSA, to try and improve an area that seems to struggle. The IRC has done a much better job over the years of promoting the roundy rounders. Lots of reasons why but now USPSA wants to do better. I think it's prudent that we support the change and make this something bigger. Maybe this is the change Obama promised us?
The organizers want to do this so now you need to tell them exactly what you want. Let's look at the plan, see what needs to evolve and let's support and guide. Evolve, revolver, kinda funny if you think about it?
Obama, I mean Phil seems intent on improving the support of this division so I say let's support him and maybe Revo has a dedicated National with hundreds of shooters some day soon. Are there that many of us out there?
Rob
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Only the Nationals are the Nationals. Is the match in Memphis sanctioned by USPSA? I'm only asking as I don't know what it is. I realize there are many events that are not USPSA events.
I guess I'm not sure whats wrong with what they are trying to do, make a stand alone match to see who is willing to come. The current participation makes it appear not many revolver shooters want to shoot the Nationals. There must be reasons? I'm betting this time they will have a sellout which is only good for the shooters, division and sport in general. I just want to see enough participation from truly enthusiastic competitors.
I think the Arizona Revolver contingent is coming out in force. We may have our own squad?
I don't know, maybe the mass of revo shooters don't want a change, but that's ok too. No one is forcing anyone to go. I personally am more excited about this than practically any news from USPSA in years!
Many Matches have come and gone over the years and this one in Memphis may be awesome but I can't imagine it could be more prestigious than winning a USPSA Championship?
BTW, there are lots of motel rooms in the Quincy, Hannibal area. And seeing the potential courses of fire might be an advantage if the didn't change them, but I'm sure they will be changed enough to make it no advantage. Now being there to practice for a couple days before.... that might not hurt?
I'm looking forward to Jerry kicking my butt and may even shoot my prized 625 with the shortened cylinder and shortened underlug and weird 5.25 inch barrel length. Came from some distributor as a special years ago and is the coolest looking of the 625's!
Rob
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Ok some thoughts from a closet revolver shooter.
!st, this is a really good thing! The revos getting their own match will judge whether those shooters are serious about attending a national championship or not. The few that attend the current nationals is not enough to warrant the division having National Championship status. This just aint right! The revolvers should have this! The way to prove that is to hold a match and have hundreds try to get in. The revolver class has some fantastic competitors and is by far the most difficult piece of equipment to do this kind of shooting with. This match will be a sensible test for the equipment being used and will be an excellent chance for many shooters like myself that will never get to shoot revolver division due to other obligations.
It's a one day match, just like many other events around the country so that is no reason not to attend. I'm hoping the next SS Nationals will be a multi day event like the other divisions have and all shooters have to shoot the same days with the same conditions and be there until the end. Then stay and shoot the Revo Nats. My hope is that USPSA will have to figure out how to run the Revo nationals with an excess of shooters trying to enter! That would be great! Anybody saying they don't wanna go because it's gonna be filled with leftover single stack shooters needs to get on the bus now and get entered! I know I'm gonna be one of those hang arounders, unless I drop my gun and get DQ'd at the SS nats, but what's the chance of that happening?
Maybe if everyone go's to this thing then they will have to add extra days to get everyone in next time.
We are now gonna see who is and who isn't gonna put there money where their mouth is. Boys, get your wallets out!
Rob Leatham
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I am right now holding one in my hands, while in my house. I think it looks pretty damn cool!
Rob
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Ow, Ow,, Ow, Ow and Ow! Now I really feel the love. I still can't get over Chuck trying to shoot 147's at minor out of a 32 twist barrel! That's really funny!!
President, of USPSA? Hummmmmm??????? Now that would be something! I'd probably just end up getting impeached for trying to make the sport Practical or some such nonsense!!
I've really got 150 posts? Man, I gotta go shooting!
Rob
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Oh yea, a .45 is more manly also!!!
Rob
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Hey, You guys all realize Dave Sevigney is the current SS Division National Champ and he shot a .45 right?
The difference in the .40 v .45 when loaded to major issue is immaterial with regards to actual shoot-ability. It just doesn't matter! If however you are shooting long .40 in your Limited and L10 guns, than having one less round to keep loaded and the fact that it weighs less when shipping or flying it, then you have a real point. Bullets are cheaper also.
I first shot the .40 in the old days to get the extra round in the mags. That is no longer the case due to rules permitting only 8 rnds in the mag if you shoot major.
There are reasons to use either, but speed of shooting is not one of them, not really.
I think I'll try a .45 this year, see what it was Dave knew that I didn't?
Rob
Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?
in Revolver Forum
Posted
Point I forgot, The stand alone Nationals this year is the most important thing to showcase revolvers as an important division. We are already ahead this year because of that. I'm really interested to see the results of that match this year!