spook

LMAO Kathy, congrats on the great new house

Jake, I agree with what Ron and Flex said. I'm not saying you cannot shoot as fast and accurate with major, but your vision needs to work harder tracking the sights. I've noticed the same thing with auto's, but there's definately less difference with auto major/minor in the sight tracking department.

It is easier to shoot minor than major. You can be competitive shooting minor (Daniel Roch proved that by finishing 2nd on the WS, with 84% of Jerr M.) In the end, it is important what YOU like to shoot. I shoot major BTW (and need to work on my load, 'cause right now I'm shooting 180+PF )

Arvid, yeah, it's great to have division in which you can shoot with a very basic gun and still win. Let's keep it that way.

That seems like a good idea. Who knows, maybe it won't give any problems at all. Yes I did, but I cannot seem to part from my little accurate P7 Even if that fixed number would be 15 + 1? I could understand a rule like that, because right now, I think the main thing a PD gun get chosen for is magazine capacity (or do you think people buy GLocks because of their lovely triggers ). Think about it. IPSC has the "maximum of 9 shots per position" rule. If I buy a Glock 17 (17+1=18 rounds), I can shoot two maximum rounds positions without a reload. If I buy a CZ75 or a Beretta or a HK USP or a Tanfoglio Stock, Capacity is limited to 1 or 2 rounds less. I can see problems rising there, but OTOH, you're right when you say we should wait until the probelm rises.

I think those "special IPSC guns" will have a "special price tag". So Vince, wouldn't this result in people paying more money to get a better gun? And isn't that exactly what PD tries to avoid at all costs? I am beginning to see that PD rules have many problems more than just the sights. "Factory parts"-rules offer the same problem. My bet is that in the end, IPSC PD will be this: 1) minor only 2) fixed number of rounds (my bet is 10) 3) 5 lbs. 1st shot 4) no single action (and pleaaase look at the HK P7 again, it's not SAO, it's squeeze action )

Flex, thanks. Good point. Vince, I like the rule you made. I hope it makes it's way into the next rulebook.

Arvid, the problem with the kind of rule that you propose is exactly what I wrote down in the first post of the thread. There are so many sights/gun combinations out there... A rule like that is too "open". It all depends on the factory that way. What if glock starts manufacturing G17's with the sight of your choice (for extra $$$) just for for production shooters? Also a very plausible scenario. They've already made the G35 and G34 for IPSC/USPSA shooters. That's another problem with the current rules. It leaves a lot of room for "factory cheating". I know H&K for instance, will do some work on their guns if you ask them. And if it leaves the factory like that, it's allowed. Glock manufactures G17s with maybe a dozen different sight combos. And when they stop with one type of sight on the G17, do you disallow it? And when they produce guns with Fiber Optics (or 50 types and brands of other sights), do you allow them? And when they produce G22s with a pair of Heinie sights, but G17s with only stock sights, do you allow G17s with Heinie sights? Rules like the current ones are not clear, and therefore cause trouble. It might look like the rules I propose allow more modifications, but in fact, they are more limiting to shooters than the current rules: No fiber optics, only post and notch (basically). Besides, you can restrict the rules as much as you like when they're clear. Unclear rules are hard to restrict (and to apply). It is easier to shoot a gun with Hi-Tech Fiber Optics with the current rules, than with the rules I drafted. And under the current rules, I can still outfit my G17 with Bo-Mar adjustables, Heinie sights, Novaks, LPA sight etc. The rules I wrote down will limit the "growth" of sight options, and clearly defines what is allowed and what is not. I understand your urge to keep it as basic as possible, and that is exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

Vince, thanks. Or...you could have that tempting double espresso and speak up

Started a new thread: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=27&t=8917 enjoy!

Hi everyone, I've started this thread as a follow up to this thread... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8877 ...discussing the IPSC (not USPSA) Production Division rules concerning sights. I tried to make my own set of rules dealing with sights in production class. My criticism of the current rules are: 1) they're not clear to the general public. PD allows sights that are offered by the factory. Companies such as Glock started offering their guns to certain law enforcement agencies or deparments thereof, with pre-installed aftermarket sights. It is very difficult to know all the gun/sight combinations that are offered (or even worse, were once offered) by all the different gun manufacturers. 2) as a result of this, it is also practically impossible to maintain the rules. RO's cannot be asked to know every sight/gun combination. 3) the final result of this all is that the unclear appliance of the rules will result in people competing with "unfair differences" in the same division. And since production division is supposed to be the one division in which people can be competitive with "simple gear", these differences are not acceptable (IMHO ) Also, there is the possibility that people will be kicked into open division, because they installed sights they thought were PD-legal, but in fact aren't. Now for the special all new "Spook rules", concerning sights in production division (in blue) Let me know whatcha think Aftermarket sights are allowed as long as their installation requires no alteration to the slide/frame Specifically allowed are the following sights: 1) Notch and post sights (these include trapezoid and V-notch sights) 2) Tritium sights, or dot sights (various bar/dot etc. patterns allowed) 3) Adjustable sights Specifically prohibited are the following sights: 1) Electronic or optical sights 2) Ghost ring sights 3) Fiber Optic sights OK, I'll elaborate on the whys and hows: I wanted to make a list with types of sights offered. This list is supposed to be a complete list of all types of sights that exist and can be installed on handguns. These sights go in the allowed or prohibited lists. This way, one can immediately see, by looking at the written rules, which sight is allowed/prohibited. If some company designs something new, it'll go in one of the two lists. I put Fiber Optics on the prohibited list, but I might as wel have put them on the allowed list. I thought this would be more within the spirit of production, but basically it doesn't matter in which list they go. Clear rules, I think. Now for some disclaimers: 1) IPSC, not USPSA 2) The list is probably not complete. There must me more types of sights out there. Please feel free to add other types to the rules. They'll simply go in the allowed or the prohibited list.

Vince, if that was the intention of PD, I take back everything I said. I always assumed PD was designed as an easy-eantrance division in which people could be competitive with the cheap and simple guns they already owned (or at least wouldn't have to spend a fortune on). I had no idea it was designed to make gun companies get off their butts and start designing some nice competition guns. I'm on it!

This is what's going to happen: I'll attend a match...say the EC2004. I have a Glock 17 and some nice Heinie sights on top of it. I see a fellow squadmember with a Glock and some Fiber Optic sights on it. I'll ask him: "are those allowed?". And he'll respond: "yeah, sure, some police deparment in Georgia ordered some Glock 17's with FO sights, a couple of weeks ago. Here's the letter to prove it." Face it. It is a plausible scenario. And it'll suck like any "modrace" does. PD is supposed to be a "fair" division, where people with equal stuff compete with eachother. It sucks to go to the WS with your box stock glock with nasty sights and seeing someone with some nice aftermarket sights. Mods like sights do make a difference. It is easier to hit a plate at 25 yds with sights that don't cover the whole plate. So, Vince, Q17 of the IROA FAQ doesn't help. I understand the rules. It's the fact that some of that are unmaintainable (is that even English?). It is practically impossible to verify if aftermarket sights are offered on whatever brand of gun. And besides, suppose some little police dept. issues G22s with FO-sights, does that mean I cannot use them on my G17, I guess it does. Wouldn't it be easier to allow everything notch and post or "original" (steyr M9)? Or wouldn't it be easier to get rid of all FO's in PD? Draw a line that will be there for the next 5 years. That's better than having guncompanies draw the line for you.

Vincent, thanks, but unforunately the site says: this product is not available outside the USA

Larry, I agree with Luiz. Excellent description. I wonder what others have to say. As far as reloads go: I shoot revover and reloads are a fundamental skill there, more than in any other division. And Jake is right. I all comes down to practicing, practicing, practicing, until it becomes natural.

Vince, the next WS will see a lot of "factory letters", believe you me. This is the whole problem with PD! Why do you think I asked the original question in this thread? I don't know what is allowed. You say I can't use a FO. Wakal says you can. How the hell am I supposed to know that a small police department in, say, Alabama ordered their glocks with FO's from the factory? I cannot see how this division is not turning into an equipment race. Rules need to be clear, IMO

Vince, don't get me wrong. I love the idea behind PD. It's just impossible to "know" all guns on the list. If I attend EC2004 with a Dlask and some funky sights, will YOU be able to tell me whether they're allowed or not (or would you have to find someone else, or call the factory, while I'm waiting at the chrono)? I have. I won't use names. A guy in my squad at the Chzech Nats was shooting a Glock 17. Trigger was too light and he had a grip reduction that was "undone" with some polymer epoxy stuff. I figured he would shoot open from that moment on. But he finished top 5 PD. I didn't complain for 2 reasons. 1) I shot revolver, so I wouldn't give a #$%k if he shot a 1911 with a 1 pound trigger. 2) I don't rat on other guys. It makes me feel bad. He had no intention (I could tell) to cheat. It's the job of the RO to apply the rules. Not the shooters job to check and see if they can get closer to 1st place by ratting on some fellow shooters. Luca, thanks for the thread. Yeah, I guess we could decide to live with it. But OTOH, PD is still young. There's still time to "change" the rules.

OK, here goes the predicted thread drifting : What I mean is that it is difficult to "allow" aftermarket sights, and still specify what type of sights are allowed. What the manufacturer offers can vary from day to day. If I shoot a Smith & Wesson 5906 for instance, I would be able to put some FO sights on it. It's difficult (at least, it seems difficult to me) to keep up with what all the manufacturers offer. I think it's easier to make rules based on existing non-variables (length of mag, capacity, trigger pull weight etc.*). The way it is now, the mods you can make to your gun depends on the brand of gun you shoot. Before you know it, you'll get a similar list as the IDPA holster list, with all the allowed mods on it. OR...everyone will be shooting a Glock, CZ or Para (and that kinda leaves the whole "shoot-whatcha-got"-thing in PD hanging by a thread) *For instance: 10+1 rounds (don't care how long the mag is) 5 lbs. triggerpull (I wouldn't even care if you shot a 5lbs. 1911 or BHP, but lets keep it no SAO ) no external mods exept: sights (nothing electronic) skateboard tape grips (nothing heavy) no internal aftermarket parts no comps ports or recoil reducing devices

Skeeter, what gun finished 1st?

I think the FS is too big (wide). The rear sight notch is too shallow and wide, and on the adjustable Glock sights, I find the "gaps" in the rear sight distracting. I also do not like "box and dot" type sights, or any rear sight that has anything other than black on it. I like the Dawsons, because the dimensions seem right (0.090 FS, 0.110 rear), not because they're FO. Vince, I think you're example illustrates the need to draw a line somewhere. It's just very difficult to do that and still allow some mods. Arvid, I've shot Glocks with standard sights. And I admit I like fixed sights better that adjustables. Perhaps I'll just go with a pair of Heinies or Novaks. I just don't know how much of a hassle it'll be to get them "adjusted"(?). I'll ask forum member A33435 if you can see the sights on his Glock (slide-burried Bomars) at our next match. It'll give you an idea of what I'm looking for in sights.

Ok thanks guys. Lots of info here, but questions remain. My question is: how much leeway exactly? AFAI understand, the rule is very vague, and it depends on the guys who's judging your gun? Basically, it comes down to this: The things I change on my guns are: grips, sights and trigger. Now, grips I cannot change in PD. The Glock trigger I can live with. But those horrible sights gotta go. What can I use on my Glock. And what if I take the FO rod out, weld the hole closed, and machine it (making my own sight)? Arvid, it's OK to dream isn't it? (even when it's about a cheap plastic gun with a crappy trigger and awful sights ) I'm not getting into the whole USPSA vs. IPSC PD discussion, because we'll have some major thread drifting ahead when I do, so..... (But for the record, PD should be a 5 lbs. first round, 10+1 round max, USPSA mods allowed division )

I did some searching around in this Glock forum, but no luck yet. IPSC (not USPSA) changed the rules a little. The old rules said that you could change the sights on your production gun as long as you didn't mill the slide and as long as the manufacturer sold the gun with those sights on it from the factory. Now the rule changed to: You can put any sight on that doesn't require alterations to the slide, as long as the manufacturer sells the guns from the factory with similar types (e.g. "adjustable") on them. My question is this: Glock sells the G17 with adjustable sights. The dawson sights are adjustable. That part is pretty simple and obvious/legal. BUT...the Dawson sights are fiber optic (the front sight is). Can I put those on my Glock without getting punted into Open div.? And if not, how about getting just the non-FO rear sight and making my own FS?

Just emailed Tom. Not everything he sells is on the site. He doesn't do the 9x23 conversions anymore, but he still sells the clips and yes, they're for the 6-shot 686 and work with 9mm.

Thanks guys, I'll check it out ASAP Björn

Guys, thanks. Wakal, I was afraid the SDM would give me a claustrophobic sight picture. Maybe I'll have my gunsmith machine a FO FS for me. Sensei, please let me know what you think of the SDM once you install it.