Neil Beverley

Just a very brief announcement that it is looking likely that an IPSC Shotgun World Championship match will be held in 2010, probably somewhere in Europe. This will be the first Level V IPSC SG match ever held. I will post updated information as and when I get it. Also a couple of reminders: The first IPSC 3 Gun World Championship Tournament will be held in Ecuador in 2009. The next IPSC European Shotgun Championship match will also be in 2009, probably in either the Czech Republic or Russia.

I'm sure there are parts of Indonesia that are unsafe. I'm sure there are some parts of the US that are unsafe. I KNOW for a FACT that there are places in the UK that are unsafe. Hell, we have to schedule our drivers to drive 30+ minutes away from bad areas before parking up their trucks for the night. These are dreadful places. I felt safer in Bali. In fact I never felt unsafe in Bali when I was there in 2004 and indeed in conversation with a tour guide he explained the peaceful philosophy of the Hindu religion. I kept my wits about me, sure, I was mindful of the bombing. But guys I can tell you, the problems aren't unique. One of my staff lost his mother-in-law and sister-in-law in the Egyptian bombing a while back. One of my partner's friends lost her ex husband on 9/11. I've met way too many people cripped, maimed or simply shot or blown up in Northern Ireland. Terrorism sucks. It sucks wherever it occurs. We've had our fair share of bombings in the UK. It used to be the IRA, all too often. Now it is Al-Qaeda. I was in London yesterday. I had to travel on the underground train network, and yes, I watched faces, and I looked at what people were carrying. I was simply vigilant but it didn't stop me going. I used the same vigilance in Bali. I loved Bali. I never felt threatened or unsafe. I'm going back and I intend to take the family. If I thought there was a significant risk I would not put my family in harm's way. You can talk this up into a major life threatening risk all you like. The reality was, and is, very different.

I've been having some difficulties in sorting out my photo album on one of my own domains and I'll need more time to resort to Plan B. In the meantime I've opted for Plan C and I've created 2 basic albums (there is a limit of 300 images per album) on a Yahoo account I have. I haven't bothered to edit any of these, or sort out the wheat from the chaff. There are a great many similar images because I had set multi image mode on the camera but you're welcome to have a look. Album 1 Album 2

The likely format will be 24 stages of HG for the Pan American Championship. 8 of these stages will be nominated as counting towards the 3 gun Tournament. Then add in 8 stages of SG and 8 stages of rifle to make up the remainder of the tournament. Therefore it will be around 40 stages, shot over 5/6 days, if you shoot everything or just 24 stages if HG only or 24 mixed stages if you shoot the 3 gun. I'll post more details as I get them. I have been asked to be involved with the SG portion of the Tournament.

Only a lot! Him and Trapr had a fair old skinful on Sunday night. They're over here having a ball. Match starts on Wednesday.

The shotgun and rifle rules permit metal and frangible targets to be scored as double value. The IPSC Shotgun rules were extended in Jan 2006 to include paper targets as well. My role as a course reviewer isn't to rewrite stages constantly to my way of thinking but instead I try to help the match organisers deliver a match that they want, and are happy with, but within the framework of the rules. So unless something is illegal or doesn't conform I only make recommendations. Rather than applying any generalisation to stages when I actually review stages I always try to calculate the final stage factor. To take extreme examples: a stage with a factor of 10 renders a disappearing target next to useless, an ornament. However, if the stage factor is likely to be say 2 then the disappearing targets are worth going for and can add enough points to affect the match results. In the end, as is so often the case, it boils down to good course design. Get it right and disappearing targets are worth including even with the value limited to a max of 10. For me I reckon that a disappearing target needs to be able to add an absolute minimum of 3 net points to justify inclusion, to be honest I prefer 4 plus but 3 is the absolute minimum. This is the principle on which I make my recommendations to any course designer. Changing a stage from a loaded to an unloaded start, certainly for SG, may change the stage factor enough to make the difference as to whether a disappearing target is justified or not. The black art of course design!

Definitely the best idea yet................... Stage 22 is a Comstock Stage consisting of 10 glasses of beer. Start position: Sitting on Kavala beach. Scoring: If youre lucky Penalties: Procedural penalties for spilling beer. Procedure: On the start signal engage all glasses freestyle, timing stops .... who bl**dy cares when the timing stops. Bring more beer.

Jim I know what the USPSA rules say. Not only because I'm a member but also because, as Kurt points out (thanks Kurt), I wrote a great many of these rules, certainly the shotgun rules. The USPSA Shotgun rules were adopted in May 2004 from the IPSC rules with only very minimal changes. Yes, we strive for continuity across the disciplines but the overiding factor is that we also modify rules to be discipline specific where necessary, for example, and you can call me old fashioned if you like, but I wasn't too keen on adopting the holster rules for SG, even for continuity. So why the round count difference? It stems from the 9 round loading limit in Standard Division. If we were to allow 9 round Short Courses then you effectively turn these into Virginia Count stages because how many people will want to reload to pick up a miss? By setting the limit to 8 everyone has a spare round and can usually shoot without the fear that a single miss will be very expensive. You have quoted and have been working on the handgun round count wheras these discussions are about the value of clay targets that are to be shot with a shotgun. Hence why I quoted the SG rules instead. You have again made the point that the maximum round count doesn't work. Exactly. But nobody is insisting that it has to. There is no requirement to include a stage with the maximum number of rounds and indeed this discussion started because it was correctly pointed out that there can be too much emphasis on a single stage. We have made a recommendation, we have not made it a requirement, that 15% of the match points is the highest proportion of the match for a single stage. A club can absolutely include a Long Course at 28 or, for a slug stage, 32 rounds, even on a 6 stage match. The rule book certainly does not preclude that. Indeed the rules specifically provide for clubs running matches like that. See 1.1.5.1. Furthermore the rules provide for a club to hold a match of just 2 stages and there is nothing to prevent both of these stages being 32 round stages. You're finding fault with not existent restrictions and where a problem doesn't exist. The match you describe at your club is perfectly legal so what's the problem? We have simply made a recommendation. For the record, UK matches are usually 8 to 12 stages for a Level II match and always 12 + stages for a Level III match. They usually run for 2 or sometimes 3 days but are always shot in 1 day by the competitors. The British Open Level III match is usually 15 stages, shot in one day, typically 180 rounds approx.

Jim The Short, Medium and Long Course ratios are USPSA recommended ratios as well. The ratios are a recommendation, as is the 15% max for any single stage. There is no obligation to only run matches in multiples of 6 stages and 8 stage matches are common but in reality I see many different combinations hence why the ratios are only recommended. There is no obligation to have a 32 round stage as a long course and please note that the max rounds for a SG Short Course is 8 and for a long course there is a restriction to 28 targets so unless you are using slugs, and double tapping, then the max round count also becomes 28 by default. The figures you have used to try to show that the 15% figure isn't achievable actually supports the argument of the discussion because a 32 round stage is a disproportionate stage for a small match. Certainly for a 6 stage match. A 12 stage match works easily simply by dropping the 2 long courses to 24 rounds each. With the short courses at 8 rounds and the Medium Courses at 16 rounds you have a perfect balance of the recommended ratios and percentages. Total rounds 160. A decent match. 12 stages is the recommended minimum number of stages for a Level III SG match. The point being made in the rulebook is to draw attention to what is considered to be ideal ratios for a balanced match. At the European Shotgun Championships the biggest stage is only 8.9% of the match points.

When are you guys flying over? I get there next Wednesday.

For the 2006 IPSC Rules we added the text below in red:

The rules require that for a hit to count a frangible target must break or there must be a piece visibly missing. A single pellet hole would count but simple marking on the surface would not. Perhaps this is a good reason to not use shot as small as #8s?

You are correct! The disappearing targets will be verifiable. I calculated the stage (Stage 20) as a likely 30 second run. Possibly down to 25 seconds but I don't see much if any improvement on that. Assuming all targets are hit in 30 seconds then the stage factor is 4.0 and in 25 seconds 4.8. To consider this another way - if a double value clay can be successfully shot in under 2.5 (or at 25 seconds in 2.08), including the time to reload then the hit gains you points. If it takes you longer to load the extra round and take the extra shot then you lose points. You then have to consider the risk factor. You also have to consider what if the guy you're trying to beat goes for it and gets all hits? Consider Kurt in full flow. He would reload as part of a sequenced reload with other rounds so the reloading time is small. There are other targets close by so the transition time is small. I would be surprised if taking a shot at one of these clays would add much more than 1.2 to 1.3 seconds (each) to Kurt's time. If the stage is won in 30 seconds Kurt improves his score at 5 points per clay by hitting them, 20 points better off in total for all 4. Perhaps an improvement of 3.5 - 3.8 points per clay if the stage runs at 25 seconds. he can even afford 1 or 2 misses and still be better off. When I reviewed the match Stage 19 gave me more heartache. T9 and 10 disappear. Certainly OK for Open and Modified but for Standard Division it will hinge on whether you can get a single round in the gun before arriving at the door without slowing you down enough to counter the 5 points available on the second of these targets. On Stage 4 T4 (a paper target) disappears but it is a buckshot stage and we count 2 hits on paper anyway so the target is worth 10 points without declaring it "double value". It is elements such as these that I believe adds an extra dimension to the skills required for IPSC Shotgun. A thinking man's sport!

For the ESC match the clays are supported on wooden sticks. We don't want to use metal holders because of the closeness in conjunction with slugs. Distance is stated as 12 meters. How does the saying go ...............? "You can't miss fast enough to win!" I also added a link to a downloadable C of F file in the ESC thread over here on BE.

Me thinks it is a good stage for a Short Course. The "Oh sh*t" consideration certainly adds to the interest. The clays are easy to hit, right up to the point where you're at an international match, thousands of miles from home, with a crowd watching and the clock running. Trapr, you won't win the match on a stage like this. A defensive "good enough" time is arguably worth banking instead. Unless you are Kurt! Taking the match as a whole, it's a marathon, not a sprint. I'm looking forward to meeting you in a couple of weeks.

I agree with George that it isn't a big issue, certainly not over a whole match but pumps usually run slower that semi-autos on target arrays. I say the gun runs slower whereas of course I mean the shooter can't usually run them as quick. Having said that, I've seen some VERY quick shooters with a pump gun who out-shoot guys with semis. I've seen a fair number of occasions where there has been a opportunity to double tap a target. The 2003 European Shotgun Championships featured a significant amount of slugs and most targets required 2 hits. Many of these could be double-tapped. Slightly over 50% of the match was slugs, amounting to approx 120 rounds over 10/11 stages. On the other hand the 2006 Europeans, being held next month in Greece, only has a single target requiring 2 slug hits. All other slug targets only require a single hit. In the UK, and from reviewing many IPSC Level III matches from around the world, I can report that there are a number of stages in matches that require 2 slug hits per target. If the targets are placed at longer distances then the solution is 2 aimed shots rather than "double tapping" and taking all factors into account I still come back to my earlier statement, and George's, that it isn't a big issue.

The paper-target-only rule only applies to HG. For SG and Rifle there are no restrictions, so metal targets, frangible targets or any combination of targets can be incorporated into VC or FT stages for SG and Rifle. This applies to the USPSA rules as well as the IPSC rules, see 9.2.3.2 and 9.2.4.2. For information only: the 2006 IPSC rules now permit single string Standard exercises (and about time too) and also permit Comstock Standards. Please note that I have stated "permit" and not "require". More choice for no loss.

Without wishing to get involved in the debate itself can I just point out that 10.6.2 applies to "Other persons ............". 10.6.1 is the rule that applies to competitors.

Correct, but be careful because either 2 or 3 out of the range are ported and could bump you out of Standard Division. One of the chokes is far from clear on an initial glance at the spec that it is in fact ported, as a shooter from Argentina has recently found out to his cost.

Dave You may or may not know that I am the IPSC Shotgun Course Reviewer (amongst other things) and as such I get to see many many SG Cs of F. I've also been involved in the admin of SG only matches for close on 20 years. I've been tight for time these last few days otherwise I would have posted a number of ideas but I'll try to add a couple for now. IMO, and this is an observation and not a criticism, a great many matches don't fully challenge the shooter nor do they test the full range of the capabilities of the gun. Oh so many matches focus only on speed and not accuracy and infrequently fully challenge pattern spread restrictions. I've read many comments about using spreader chokes and/or spreader cartridges but mostly if these are being employed the shooter is relying on the size of the pattern to assist in target engagement. This in turns results in speed being tested more than accuracy. I believe we should be setting up matches to test the full range of shooting skills and the full versatility of the gun and ammo. Trapr has spotted a stage in the Europeans (ESC) that brings in a test for accuracy but the stage presents additional problems in that it is a Short Course (speed shoot) that starts with an empty gun. Bearing in mind that shooters will look to load fast they then face a paper target that requires double tapping and the said 4 clays. There is a huge danger of over running on the clays so should the competitor opt to play safe and load an extra round? Or two? Should they slow down for the clays? How much? A simple stage becomes a bit more because of design. UK matches feature close up no-shoots in many varying presentations to test man and gun. This more often turns stages in a thinking man's challenge. I'll try to expand on this a bit more in a later post but I've added a couple of pictures to give an idea. Also the use of buckshot is very different in the UK compared to a great many other countries. We mix in paper targets among the metalwork and score the best 2 hits (we stipulate cartidges with a max of 9 pellets for expediency). Overlapping paper or metal no-shoots out to 25 or even 30 yards can cause problems. This type of target presentation features in one of the ESC stages. In other matches we've had bobbing scoring and no-shoot paper target combinations, again to be shot with buck. By setting the no-shoots suitably close to scoring targets you can create situations where the competitor has to aim to miss (point of aim) and so rely on the edge of the pattern to take the target. But how much do they lay off? Provide tough shooting challenges in conjuction with easy challenges but where the easy solution costs time. Let the competitor evaulate how much they can push the envelope. Take the tough shot to save time or play safe? Make it a thinking man's sport. Make it freestyle. Every competitor can choose their own gun configuration, the choke, the cartridge. Let them choose to get close or to the side to make it easy or save time by shopoting at a greater distance. Provide a stage with close up clays to be shot with birdshot that just beg to be shot with a spreader choke and then add in a couple of heavy long-distance plates and maybe a tight no-shoot challenge so the competitor has to thing about the best solution (which may now eliminate the use of spreader chokes). I like stages that make the competitor think, that force a change of pace, that require speed at times but accuracy as well. Pat Kelly was very generous in his comments after his visit to a UK match but I think he enjoyed the different type of stages that we try to create. His article in Front Sight did well to capture a lot of the flavour. All shooting is good but there is so much more to exploit at a SG match. If you haven't already looked at the stages, the ESC match C of F is available as a downloadable file from this forum. I hope some of this generates some ideas.

Hi Bruce What is being planned for IPSC Shotgun and Rifle?

My 1187 broke in Bali during the Indonesian SG Championships in 2004. I borrowed an 1100 and it was noticeably slow to cycle. I had to wait for it. On the other hand I've shot thousands of rounds through an 1100 I owned many years ago and it cycled every bit as fast as my competition 1187. I timed 6 shots out of it in a true 0.92, giving splits of about 0.15. I guess the cyclic rate varies from gun to gun, even within type. It shouldn't vary so much but I have personally experienced it.

I've made the stages available as a PDF attachment. ESC06_Stages.pdf

I had to slice my finger open many times over before I finally learnt my lesson. Even "protecting" it behind layers of cloth still wasn't enough. Old Remington or new Remington - you'll still bleed. Gun Scrubber or brake cleaner work well. WD40 also works well to flush the cr*p out. I also save up old toothbrushes to help with scrubbing the internals.

Daniel Had you spotted this post on the Global Village site? Otherwise I suggest you contact the organisers via the ESC website: http://www.esc06.gr/ The Match Director is a good guy and he will help for sure.