Stock II Xtreme Mod List

[Tanfastic]

5 minutes ago, SoCalShooter69 said:

 

Every gun gets less reliable when you start to mod it. You need to test and tune what gets you back to reliability. But I'm 100% sure right now, with your current set up, the ammo is the issue. No doubt.

 

I'll go get some Winchester primers today (since Federals are unicorns) and load up some rounds to test out also.  One way or another I gotta make this thing run by the weekend!  I can't be the guy with a hot new gun who can't shoot it in the match because it won't cycle ammo, I'd never hear the end of it from my crew!  Ha ha!

[Sniperboy]

Did you revert back to your stock hammer and disco - then using this problem ammo, try again?  May help narrow down your possibility so you don't chase yourself in circles?

You did mention that you reverted back but did not mention if you tested it again with live fire.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Sniperboy

[SoCalShooter69]

4 minutes ago, Sniperboy said:

Did you revert back to your stock hammer and disco - then using this problem ammo, try again?  May help narrow down your possibility so you don't chase yourself in circles?

You did mention that you reverted back but did not mention if you tested it again with live fire.

 

It's 100% ammo related. 

 

1. Feds don't spin/plunk. Need to load shorter or ream.

 

2. CCI spin, but take multiple strikes to light. Primers to high for set-up.

[Tanfastic]

8 minutes ago, Sniperboy said:

Did you revert back to your stock hammer and disco - then using this problem ammo, try again?  May help narrow down your possibility so you don't chase yourself in circles?

You did mention that you reverted back but did not mention if you tested it again with live fire.

 

I put everything back to all original parts last night after I had all of the failures at the range, and will be testing at the range again at lunch today, I'll report back.

[MemphisMechanic]

The 15.5 PD spring in my gun is just barely strong enough to ignite CCIs with the bolo tuned to crank my hammer back farther than yours.

 

 Several rounds of heavy polishing.

 

And ammo with agressively pressed primers.

 

...In other words, I wouldn't expect your gun to run CCIs yet on ammo that plunks and spins: mine did not.

 

Wichesters are a different issue. If the gun won't light those off, pull the firing pin block and load some ammo that has deeply DEEPLY seated primers, and is extra short so that it plunks and spins. Take that to the range and see what happens.

 

EDIT: I was also one of the few who needed to fit (file down) the extended firing pin block with a Titan/bolo combination. Before I did, the firing pin showed visible signs of peening where it was running into the block. My gun didn't run worth a damn with the unfitted block installed.

Edited June 28, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Tanfastic]

Ok, so range trip complete.  I found some smaller grain competition ammo that does pass the plunk test in my barrel and ran 100 rounds of that (Federal primers) with the firing pin block removed, and fired 90 of the 100 rounds in DA.  3 light strikes out of that, so nowhere near the problem I had before, but still not perfect.  I checked out the firing pin and block, and it appears there's a problem, there's noticeable wear on the pin and block, see photos.  Can I just file down that part of the block that is dragging?

[MemphisMechanic]

It looks like your block is hitting, yes.

 

You can either file the top of the tab down which blocks the striker:

 

 

Or you can file down the head of the FPB that sticks out of the slide - the surface you see with the slide pulled off, and where the sear actually lifts it.

 

I chose to file down the head of it, because it's easier to keep flat in my opinion. A few thousandths is the difference betwen properly fit, and junking the part.

 

First, I'd toss it in a bin somewhere and leave it out of the gun until you get it 100% reliable.

 

The ammo that you're feeding the gun: take a pair of calipers and measure how deeply your premiers are seated. Factory ammo is usually seated flush or very close. For a hammer-fired gun with lightened springs a flush primer is a high primer and the gun will not run on it without a spring like the EGD Medium, which is barely lighter than the stock one.

 

[Tanfastic]

Ok, I'll just leave the FPB out for the match tonight and this weekend.  Yes the primers on my factory ammo are flush, I just found that on my 650 the Winchester primers actually get seated below flush as opposed to the CCI's which were flush.  So maybe Winchester for the win in more ways than one.  I'll go back to my reload blue bullets after the barrel gets reamed.

[Tanfastic]

Flawless at the match tonight, missed a stage win by 0.15 HF.   Barrel is being reamed tomorrow by my gunsmith friend, I talked with him about it tonight and he said no problem he's done quite a few CZ and Tanfo barrels, I wasn't sure since his main speciality is 1911's and building Open guns.  So it should be good to go for the Sectional Championship this weekend.

[Tanfastic]

18 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

It looks like your block is hitting, yes.

 

You can either file the top of the tab down which blocks the striker:

 

Or you can file down the head of the FPB that sticks out of the slide - the surface you see with the slide pulled off, and where the sear actually lifts it.

 

I chose to file down the head of it, because it's easier to keep flat in my opinion. A few thousandths is the difference betwen properly fit, and junking the part.

 

First, I'd toss it in a bin somewhere and leave it out of the gun until you get it 100% reliable.

 

The ammo that you're feeding the gun: take a pair of calipers and measure how deeply your premiers are seated. Factory ammo is usually seated flush or very close. For a hammer-fired gun with lightened springs a flush primer is a high primer and the gun will not run on it without a spring like the EGD Medium, which is barely lighter than the stock one.

 

 

Ok, just to confirm, you're saying this is the area you filed down on the top of the block?

 

[MemphisMechanic]

Correct - the surface that's visible on the underside of the slide when it's assembled.

 

EDIT: I assume that's the Xtreme block you'll be working on... I thought you said you polished this gun's internals? Then the sides and the surface you're about to sand down should look like they were freshly dipped in wet chrome, along with the hole in the slide it drops into. (And every pin and hole and trigger part in the frame of your gun, too.)

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Sniperboy]

Is that the extended firing pin block or the OEM firing pin block & firing pin?

 

Glad to hear your last run was reliable and you were able to shake off some of that bad juju.  Did you tweak your ammo like SoCalShooter69 suggested? 

From your experimentation do you have a better idea of what could be causing your issues from when you installed the Titan & Bolo?

[Tanfastic]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Correct - the surface that's visible on the underside of the slide when it's assembled.

 

EDIT: I assume that's the Xtreme block you'll be working on... I thought you said you polished this gun's internals? Then the sides and the surface you're about to sand down should look like they were freshly dipped in wet chrome, along with the hole in the slide it drops into. (And every pin and hole and trigger part in the frame of your gun, too.)

 

 

Yes, the Xtreme block that came in it.  I haven't polished nearly all of it yet, I polished the trigger bar and the bottom of the sear, and the top of the plunger so far.  I also did the magwell since my mags were hanging up a bit on reloads.  I'll do the block and hole too after I sand it down, thanks!

 

[Tanfastic]

50 minutes ago, Sniperboy said:

Is that the extended firing pin block or the OEM firing pin block & firing pin?

 

Glad to hear your last run was reliable and you were able to shake off some of that bad juju.  Did you tweak your ammo like SoCalShooter69 suggested? 

From your experimentation do you have a better idea of what could be causing your issues from when you installed the Titan & Bolo?

 

It's the Xtreme FBP and firing pin that came in the gun, it's the Stock 2 Xtreme model.  I will work more on ammo next week, for last night I shot the 124gr factory ammo I had which spun freely in the chamber.  I'm getting my barrel back today after reaming, so now I'll start checking my reload ammo and my factory 147gr ammo.  If the 147gr factory is good to go, that's what I'll shoot this weekend for the big match.  I'll work on the reloads more next week, moving the OAL back up to a reasonable level from the 1.106 that I was having to load it to with the original barrel chamber.  I adjusted the press this morning to 1.145 and popped out a couple rounds to test out in the barrel tonight.  If that clears fine, then I'll just back it off to 1.135 and run a batch with that to test.  I'll start testing out things and get more polishing done next week, my plan is to do one change at a time, test it, then do the next change, etc.  For example, I'll reinstall the Titan hammer and test that before I also install the Bolo.  I didn't shoot much with the bolo yet, so might take some getting use to, but initially I didn't like the lack of any reset, I was getting trigger freeze when shooting fast, I found I had to slap the trigger to shoot fast which is not how I am used to doing it.

[MemphisMechanic]

The lack of polishing is probably contributing to your light strike issues. A little bit.

 

Everything in that gun needs about three solid hours of being dremeled to an absolute mirror shine if you want to run all of these lightweight springs, and still expect the hammer to strike with a decent amount of force. The pins and spring holes and hammer strut and all those other surfaces that move when the hammer is released.

 

It'll also lower your trigger weights. But it's mostly worth doing for reliability.

[Tanfastic]

21 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

The lack of polishing is probably contributing to your light strike issues. A little bit.

 

Everything in that gun needs about three solid hours of being dremeled to an absolute mirror shine if you want to run all of these lightweight springs, and still expect the hammer to strike with a decent amount of force. The pins and spring holes and hammer strut and all those other surfaces that move when the hammer is released.

 

It'll also lower your trigger weights. But it's mostly worth doing for reliability.

 

Yeah, I'll do all of it for sure.  The thing that has me stumped is right out of the box with nothing done to it, it ran flawlessly.  After I started "upgrading" it, the reliability went away.   Might have just been lucky initially.  If I understand things correctly, my ultimate setup for "It HAS to run for this match" would be to leave the strong hammer spring but re-install the PD firing pin spring, and leave the FBP out of the gun. Does that sound right?

[Sniperboy]

Oh right!  Re: the FPB, you have an Exterme, thanks for clearing that up.

Good luck on your match and thanks for your updates.  What kind of trigger return spring you got?  I am not sure what TRS the Xtreme uses but the Stock one seems to improve the tactile reset.

 

4 minutes ago, Tanfastic said:

 

Yeah, I'll do all of it for sure.  The thing that has me stumped is right out of the box with nothing done to it, it ran flawlessly.  After I started "upgrading" it, the reliability went away.   Might have just been lucky initially.

 

Perplexing and really gets me scratching my head too.  It's not like you went from a 15lb spring to a 10lb spring overnight.  Heck, maybe the Titan hammer is different enough from the Delta that it simply caused an interference on how the FPB activates?

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Sniperboy

[MemphisMechanic]

9 minutes ago, Tanfastic said:

 The thing that has me stumped is right out of the box with nothing done to it, it ran flawlessly.  After I started "upgrading" it, the reliability went away.  

 

 

The simple version:

 

I'm pretty sure this is your first time tuning a hammer-fired gun.

 

Everything you're upgrading in the gun reduces how hard it strikes. So you must help the gun out with:

 

1. Internals that have been polished and fitted perfectly so that you lose as little force as possible.

 

2.  You have to run better ammo than you loaded for a striker gun. Ammo which fits your barrel well and plunks/spins freely. Ammo which has primers buried fully into the bottom of the primer pocket.

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[Tanfastic]

9 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

 

The simple version:

 

I'm pretty sure this is your first time tuning a hammer-fired gun.

 

Everything you're upgrading in the gun reduces how hard it strikes. So you must help the gun out with:

 

1. Internals that have been polished and fitted perfectly so that you lose as little force as possible.

 

2.  You have to run better ammo than you loaded for a striker gun. Ammo which fits your barrel well and plunks/spins freely. Ammo which has primers buried fully into the bottom of the primer pocket.

 

 

Yes, first time at all with a hammer-fired gun, it's a much simpler design than what I'm used to, but also a lot more finnicky.  I do appreciate all of the insights here and answering my questions, I figure if I'm unclear about something, there's probably someone else who is as well, so hopefully it contributes to the forum content.  I really want to understand it all so I can troubleshoot myself in the future, as I'm planning for this to be my competition platform for a long time into the future.  

 

 

[SoCalShooter69]

Memphis just touched on it, but I've said it about three other times in this thread - the more you tune the gun, the less reliable it will be, until you work out the combo that gives you 100%.

 

Aside from possible fpb issue, and lack of polish, you keep eluding to the titan and bolo combo as not doing what it's designed to do, or at the least, not popping your ammo. 

 

Reason - the ammo you are using. It's that simple.

 

Factory ammo doesn't mean more reliable. Free spinning rounds do not mean more reliable. You NEED to seat you're primers below flush, at the least. Preferable measurement would have you below .005". Def ignition would have you at .007 - .010"

 

You need to change ammo or seat your primers deeper. It's not the hammer; it's not the disco; it's not the chamber (with free spin ammo)...

[Tanfastic]

49 minutes ago, SoCalShooter69 said:

Memphis just touched on it, but I've said it about three other times in this thread - the more you tune the gun, the less reliable it will be, until you work out the combo that gives you 100%.

 

Aside from possible fpb issue, and lack of polish, you keep eluding to the titan and bolo combo as not doing what it's designed to do, or at the least, not popping your ammo. 

 

Reason - the ammo you are using. It's that simple.

 

Factory ammo doesn't mean more reliable. Free spinning rounds do not mean more reliable. You NEED to seat you're primers below flush, at the least. Preferable measurement would have you below .005". Def ignition would have you at .007 - .010"

 

You need to change ammo or seat your primers deeper. It's not the hammer; it's not the disco; it's not the chamber (with free spin ammo)...

 

 

Sure I'm just trying to understand how everything works, I think I'm almost there now after having the gun completely a part several times now and all of the great information here.  I'm not in denial that ammo can be tweaked to match the platform, and I will definitely be doing that.  Loading on a 650, my options are limited, so I'll probably try to shim the primer seating bar as Memphis suggested.  I do think I have some issues that are NOT ammo related, with the FPB issue being a big one since that makes total sense that if it's dragging sometimes that it would produce light strikes.  Good info on that came from the discussion and I'm on the path to correcting it.  I would not have known any of this without posing the question and getting answers here.  

[MemphisMechanic]

If you have access to them, Winchester primers on a 650 with a shimmed primer system are a pretty solid option. Despite it's mediocre non-adjustable priming system, I consistently get them below .004" with this press.

 

They run in my gun with a 13lb spring. They should definitely run in yours (with no FPB) with a 15.5.

 

That is, if you load them and drive them deeply home. Factory ammo with Winchesters doesn't count, because factory primers aren't deep enough - most of the time they're barely flush.

Edited June 29, 2017 by MemphisMechanic

[MikieM]

2 hours ago, SoCalShooter69 said:

Memphis just touched on it, but I've said it about three other times in this thread - the more you tune the gun, the less reliable it will be, until you work out the combo that gives you 100%.

 

Aside from possible fpb issue, and lack of polish, you keep eluding to the titan and bolo combo as not doing what it's designed to do, or at the least, not popping your ammo. 

 

Reason - the ammo you are using. It's that simple.

 

Factory ammo doesn't mean more reliable. Free spinning rounds do not mean more reliable. You NEED to seat you're primers below flush, at the least. Preferable measurement would have you below .005". Def ignition would have you at .007 - .010"

 

You need to change ammo or seat your primers deeper. It's not the hammer; it's not the disco; it's not the chamber (with free spin ammo)...

 

It can't be said any simpler than this. The price you pay for these feather-lite triggers are feather-lite hammer strikes. Get your primers seated to .005, or more, below flush and your problems will magically disappear. 

If investing in a Dillon S1050 is the only way you can do it, then consider the money well spent. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by MikieM

[Tanfastic]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

If you have access to them, Winchester primers on a 650 with a shimmed primer system are pretty solid on a 650. Despite it's mediocre non-adjustable priming system, I consistently got them below .004" with this press.

 

They run in my gun with a 13lb spring. They should definitely run in yours with no FPB with a 15.5.

 

That is, if you load them and drive them deeply home. Factory ammo with Winchesters doesn't count, because factory primers aren't deep enough - most of the time they're barely flush.

 

Yup, I got 1000 Winchester Small Pistol primers yesterday, I'll try the shim tonight and see.  Loaded a few yesterday and without the shim they were at -.002", as opposed to the CCI primers that were flush.

[MemphisMechanic]

Oh good! Let me know if they actually do go in deeper. Mine look deeper than I remember without shimming the ram, but I didn't measure any before making the change.

 

Let us know what you find.

Edited June 29, 2017 by MemphisMechanic