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ESP legal?


B_RAD

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Not trying to be rude or negative against IDPA.  Just wondering. I had someone tell me on another forum they shot this gun at nationals but also had someone very reputable tell me it's not legal because of 8.2.2.3. 

 

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This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Edited by v1911
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If they are going to allow DVC's they should just allow slide cuts.

 

I have a gun that a lot of people ask me if it's a DVC, but it's not. Because it's not factory it's not a IDPA legal gun. But functionally there is no real difference in my gun and a DVC I just spent less money.

 

Maybe I should buy a DVC just to troll my local IDPA.....hmmm

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1 hour ago, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Well, I'll admit I got my guns confused. Ha.  I have the DVC 3gun.  I apologize for the discrepancy in my information.  The point was about the slide cuts. The gun I was told about did make weight, and it fit in the box.

 

The only questionable issue is specifically about the factory cutouts being a non-permitted feature per 8.2.2.3. I asked HQ and was told no. Then 8.2.2.3 was quoted.  

 

They may need to update that rule. It does say features. Not just modifications.   

 

 

Edited by B_RAD
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1 hour ago, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

Also, I just checked, it was me an you discussing this on the other forum.  We were talking about my 3gun. 

Edited by B_RAD
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 2/24/2017 at 2:08 PM, v1911 said:

This gun just got released. How was this shot for nationals? I have 1st hand knowledge that a shooter made a DVC 3gun fit the box and was able to compete in ESP. 

 

But yes, that DVC Carry would be ESP legal. 8.2.2.3 doesn't apply because you're not modifying the slide. It's a factory feature. 

 

How did he go about making it fit the box?  Did he just take off the magwell or was there more that needed to be done?

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On second read, I think 8.2.2.3 applies in that case (and to the DVC 3 gun)

 

8.2.2.3 ESP Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.

 

It specifies excluded FEATURES and modifications. I don't know if the through cuts on the Thunder or DVC are going to be considered "front cocking serrations".

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On 3/17/2017 at 6:41 PM, JRM83 said:

On second read, I think 8.2.2.3 applies in that case (and to the DVC 3 gun)

 

8.2.2.3 ESP Excluded Features and Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): A. Removal of material from the exterior of the slide other than front cocking serrations, tri-top, engraving, carry melts, and high power cuts.

 

It specifies excluded FEATURES and modifications. I don't know if the through cuts on the Thunder or DVC are going to be considered "front cocking serrations".

As far as the DVC is concerned;

You aren't removing or adding anything to the gun. It comes from the factory that way. Just as the S&W Pro series guns have factory slide cuts that are legal. No different than running a Glock 34 in ESP with that huge coffin cut on top. I've already spoken to my AC about this.

 

The guy who I know that ran a DVC 3Gun at nationals had to shave down his beavertail to make the gun fit the box. It comes with a tactical magwell and that already fits the box, check. The slide cuts are factory, so that's a non-issue, check. It's a bushing barrel gun, check. Makes weight, check. All he had to do was totally bubba smith the beavertail. And it truly looked awful. Like I wanted to take his gun and whip him with it, ugly.

Edited by v1911
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26 minutes ago, v1911 said:

As far as the DVC is concerned;

You aren't removing or adding anything to the gun. It comes from the factory that way. Just as the S&W Pro series guns have factory slide cuts that are legal. No different than running a Glock 34 in ESP with that huge coffin cut on top. I've already spoken to my AC about this.

 

The guy who I know that ran a DVC 3Gun at nationals had to shave down his beavertail to make the gun fit the box. It comes with a tactical magwell and that already fits the box, check. The slide cuts are factory, so that's a non-issue, check. It's a bushing barrel gun, check. Makes weight, check. All he had to do was totally bubba smith the beavertail. And it truly looked awful. Like I wanted to take his gun and whip him with it, ugly.

 

8.2.2.3 doesn't just cover modifications, it covers excluded features as well. As I am reading that rule it means that even if that gun has the feature from the factory it is still an excluded feature. The Glock 34 makes into ESP because of the SSP to ESP rule. Every gun that is SSP legal is also ESP legal. I'm not sure what pro series S&W you are talking about - the m&p? If so that makes it into ESP the same way. If that DVC 3 gun was legal then someone must have decided that the cuts on the DVC fell into the category of front cocking serrations.

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But, if the dvc is legal is a 1911 with similar cuts legal? And why or why or why not?

 

Just because that 1911 was legal doesn't mean its legal now, it is a new rulebook.

 

The wording "feature" can cover a lot. To me feature should mean no DVC. If there is no SSP to esp, that should mean no G34. I'm sure that wasn't there intent, but that if that's what the book says that should be the rule.

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