Shot during reload-no DQ!

[JThompson]

Just a point of order...

As a competitor ends their run on a cof, what range command has been given determines if the competitor may continue to shoot:

8.3.6 “If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear” – If the competitor has

finished shooting, ...

8.3.7 “If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster” – After issuance of this command,

the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). ...

This was specifically addressed in 2008 Nov/Dec Front Sight on page 24.

Edited December 21, 2009 by JThompson

[VegasOPM]

I had a similar situation in a match. I had just inserted the mag and re-acquired my weak hand grip and I engaged a target that was set at 3 yds (and got an "A"). My arms were not fully extended, and the RO tried to say that it was an AD during a reload. Needless to say the DQ did not stand and I got a re-shoot for RO interference.

[BR]

I agree that the scenario as posed is not a DQ. But I have to agree with the OP that the answer to this question is not crystal clear. It is a DQ to shoot or even to have your finger in the trigger guard while "loading, reloading or unloading":

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while loading, reloading or unloading a handgun.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading.

Which begs the question, what is "loading, reloading or unloading?" From Appendix A-3:

Loading . . . . . . . . . . . . . .The insertion of ammunition into a firearm.

Reloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The replenishment or the insertion of additional

ammunition into a firearm.

Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm.

By definition the "process" of reloading is actually at least three discrete events: (1) "unloading" - when the magazine is being removed; (2) the unnamed period of time when there is no mag in the gun, and before the new magazine is inserted, (3) "loading" or "reloading" - when the new magazine is being inserted. I think "reloading," as defined, does not include the time period when one has grabbed the new mag and is on the way to inserting it into the gun but before the act of insertion.

By the rules, one cannot take a shot or have her/his finger on the trigger during events (1) or (3), as DQ would be the proper call. But, one can take a shot and have her/his finger on the trigger during time period (2) without penalty. In the scenario posed by the OP, the three events are clear and separate. But, during a normal reload, which many competitors can hit in about 1 second, it could be quite difficult to determine when in the process the shot was made and when in the process the finger was on the trigger.

The devil is in the details of the definitions. Kind of reminds me of the debate over the definition of "sexual relations." Cheers.

-br

Edited December 21, 2009 by BR

[G-ManBart]

By definition the "process" of reloading is actually at least three discrete events: (1) "unloading" - when the magazine is being removed; (2) the unnamed period of time when there is no mag in the gun, and before the new magazine is inserted, (3) "loading" or "reloading" - when the new magazine is being inserted. I think "reloading," as defined, does not include the time period when one has grabbed the new mag and is on the way to inserting it into the gun but before the act of insertion.

By the rules, one cannot take a shot or have her/his finger on the trigger during events (1) or (3), as DQ would be the proper call. But, one can take a shot and have her/his finger on the trigger during time period (2) without penalty. In the scenario posed by the OP, the three events are clear and separate. But, during a normal reload, which many competitors can hit in about 1 second, it could be quite difficult to determine when in the process the shot was made and when in the process the finger was on the trigger.

The devil is in the details of the definitions. Kind of reminds me of the debate over the definition of "sexual relations." Cheers.

-br

If we're going to be strict with definitions, we'll have to be a little more precise than this.

Removing the magazine isn't "unloading", it's simply removing the magazine (unmagazining???). The gun may still have a round in the chamber, so it may still be "loaded". A gun is either loaded or unloaded...whether it's partially or fully loaded makes no difference. The magazine being ejected may or may not have any ammunition in it, so you may not be "unloading" any ammo at all, just an empty mag.

It's entirely possible to be in the middle of a "reload" and fire a shot while not in the act of "reloading".

[G-ManBart]

But wait, there's more!

There really shouldn't be. The horse is long dead....

Yes, I have the answer from the Rules Answer Man and will abide by that ruling in the future to apply the same standards used elsewhere. Still don't think it's right.

I have to ask why you feel that way? Is it because you feel that the interpretation of the rule is flawed, and that allowing a shot to be fired in the manner suggested is contrary to the rules? In other words, do you think the BOD intended the rules to prevent a shot being fired intentionally in the manner described and we're not following that intent? If so, it's already been ruled that the intent was NOT to prevent an intentional shot in the middle of a reload, so that concern is gone.

Or, is it that you feel it's unsafe to fire a shot in the manner suggested and the rule should be changed/clarify to make it a DQ offense? If so, that's a huge failure of logic (no offense, and I mean that sincerely), or the result of not having examined it completely. DQ offenses (the shooting kind) are things we consider dangerous. If a shooter is pushing the mag release and the gun goes bang, they didn't mean for the shot to be fired, it wasn't intentionally aimed and it's simply an unsafe act/AD. If a shooter is pushing a magzine into the gun, and the gun goes bang, they didn't mean for it to happen, it wasn't an intentionally aimed shot, and it's also an unsafe act/AD.

If, on the other hand, a shooter hits the mag release, sees another shot they need to take, aims and fires a shot, it's not an AD, it's intentional, and is every bit as safe as every other shot fired during the COF. It simply isn't an unsafe act in any way, shape or form.

I would like to see them substitute Negligent Discharge for Accidental Discharge, but that's a minor point

[Aristotle]

I agree with Bart, better yet, take a step back and look at the big picture here.

A DQ is the one of the most harsh penalties you could give someone. A DQ is a means to remove a competitor from competition that is unable to finish the match in safe manner, or has demonstrated as being unsafe.

Why would you want to DQ someone that was in total control of his firearm, on a technicality?

Edited December 21, 2009 by Aristotle

[BR]

Removing the magazine isn't "unloading", it's simply removing the magazine (unmagazining???).

If there is a round left in the mag, then removing the magazine is unloading. "Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm."

-b

[GentlemanJim]

Its gettin deeper in here

My opinion (based on the rules)...No DQ

The only real complaint I have about this exact thing ....the last time I saw it happen...I assumed the shooter was done and removed my earmuffs too soon:wacko:

I keep them on till holstered now

Jim

[Chills1994]

Gentelman Jim wrote:

Its gettin deeper in here

Yeah, and it's not even Christmas yet. Just wait til January or February when cabin fever really sets in.

Anybody up for a good ol' discussion on which is better: revolver vs. semi-auto, AR vs. AK, wonder 9's vs. 1911 .45's, tastes great vs. less filling?

[RV man]

Semi-auto

AR

9mm

Tastes great!!!

[G-ManBart]

Removing the magazine isn't "unloading", it's simply removing the magazine (unmagazining???).

If there is a round left in the mag, then removing the magazine is unloading. "Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm."

-b

Well, I'd say that's still not correct. Removing the magazine, even if it still has a round left in it, doesn't make the gun "unloaded". It's part of the process of unloading the gun, but it does not define "unloading the gun". It's also possible to have an unloaded gun that has a magazine in it, so it's not absolutely necessary to remove the magazine to unload a gun...heck, shoot it to slide lock and you've "unloaded" it.

[George Jones]

I almost hate jumping in here.

Let's not mix terminology.

Unloading/Loading/Reloading - those are shooter actions. Each of them may be begun and interrupted at any time. So, if a shooter begins to unload (by dropping the mag), then ceases further unloading action = he is no longer unloading. He can take a shot at will.

On the other hand, Loaded/Unloaded are conditions of the gun and have no bearing on the actions mentioned above.

[jasmap]

I almost hate jumping in here.

Let's not mix terminology.

Unloading/Loading/Reloading - those are shooter actions. Each of them may be begun and interrupted at any time. So, if a shooter begins to unload (by dropping the mag), then ceases further unloading action = he is no longer unloading. He can take a shot at will.

On the other hand, Loaded/Unloaded are conditions of the gun and have no bearing on the actions mentioned above.

My thoughts EXACTLY George. Good answer.

[BR]

Removing the magazine isn't "unloading", it's simply removing the magazine (unmagazining???).

If there is a round left in the mag, then removing the magazine is unloading. "Unloading . . . . . . . . . . . . .The removal of ammunition from a firearm."

-b

Well, I'd say that's still not correct. Removing the magazine, even if it still has a round left in it, doesn't make the gun "unloaded". It's part of the process of unloading the gun, but it does not define "unloading the gun". It's also possible to have an unloaded gun that has a magazine in it, so it's not absolutely necessary to remove the magazine to unload a gun...heck, shoot it to slide lock and you've "unloaded" it.

Mr. George Jones clarified that distinction for us. To be pedantic, "unloaded," the adjective, does not mean the same thing as "unloading," the present participle or gerund form of the verb. One can be in the process of "unloading" a "loaded" gun; two entirely different concepts. Cheers to all, and happy holidays.

-br

[mhs]

Mr. George Jones clarified that distinction for us. To be pedantic, "unloaded," the adjective, does not mean the same thing as "unloading," the present participle or gerund form of the verb. One can be in the process of "unloading" a "loaded" gun; two entirely different concepts. Cheers to all, and happy holidays.

-br

I think "correct" would be a better descriptor than "pedantic".