Is the SP-01 Shadow legal for NRA AP Production?

[DWFAN]

Besides my 1911's, I shoot this the best. I cant determine if it falls into the custom shop exclusion. I could shoot my 625-8 but would take lots of practice on that double action at 50yds, or 25 for that matter.

Im looking to try this sport out, so if anyone know's where I can give it a shot* around Kansas City, let me know.

[Alan550]

Well, you're in luck. They shoot AP at Bates City, MO and also at Hutchinson, KS. I'm sure someone from those ranges will chime in with more info. Also, they have regular matches in Columbia if you're willing to travel a couple hours.

As for the cz75 SP 01 Shadow, I see nothing on their web site that would disqualify it for Production class for AP, and it's already in use for IPSC Production, so you're good to go on that.

Alan~^~

[Chuck Anderson]

Might check the trigger pull on it. All of my SP-01 and CZ-75's have been worked on by Angus and the SA trigger is substantially below 3.5 pounds. Most of the factory Shadows will fall under 3.5 as well after a bit of shooting.

[DWFAN]

I had thought about the Trigger, that was the only thing I could think of. It hasnt been worked on that I know of. I'll have to find a gauge and check.

Thanks.

[mpolans]

Even stock, I doubt SA will be over the 3.5lb minimum.

Edited December 12, 2009 by mpolans

[gm iprod]

Stock double action on the SP-01 will be legal for Production AP, but the single action may not.

I have one at my shop and it is legal for IPSC and their rule for double action is well over 3.5lb, but the single action on this is a shade under 3lb from the factory. If your gun has been modified "within the rules of IPSC or USPSA" with the factory springs (as per Angus) then you will not be legal in AP.

[Trader]

My CZ 75 does not make the 3.5 sa trigger . My Sig 226 X5 AA does not pick 3lbs single action and it is brand new.

[Chuck Anderson]

Stock double action on the SP-01 will be legal for Production AP, but the single action may not.

I have one at my shop and it is legal for IPSC and their rule for double action is well over 3.5lb, but the single action on this is a shade under 3lb from the factory. If your gun has been modified "within the rules of IPSC or USPSA" with the factory springs (as per Angus) then you will not be legal in AP.

Modified or not the SA is too light making it illegal.

Unfortunately NRA turned Production into a Striker fired gun Division. Not sure if it was intentional or not. But that is the result of trigger pull limits that only have one weight. They either penalize Striker or DA/SA depending on how their worded (IPSC for example requires 5lbs first shot which means DA/SA guns rock).

[Toolguy]

If they made the trigger 2 pounds across the board or 3.5 pounds double and 2 pounds single all these problems would go away and

a lot more people could use what they have.

[DWFAN]

I wonder if bumping the hammer spring up 2lbs would help. Guess I need to get a gauge to check it for sure.

I agree that the rules seem to make this a striker fired class.. My sub compact XD probably wouldnt suit me very well.

[DWFAN]

Just thought I'd give an upate. I got ahold of a Lyman digital gauge. It went a 10pull avg of around 3lbs 11oz with none at or below 3lb 8oz. So it looks like Im good to go. I cant see any other reason it wouldnt work.

[Chuck Anderson]

If it's a new gun that pull will drop 1/2 to a full pound as you dry and live fire. It doesn't take long either.

[DWFAN]

Oh.. c'mon guys. Im not that good, quit giving me bad news..

Its probably got 1K through it.. maybe more. You're right, it could very well start getting lighter, especially if I start shooting it more than the PM-9.

[gm iprod]

Was that measured on the single action or double action?

Shoot it lots and see how much it changes, call CZUSA and see what is the next spring up from what you currently have. Just in case

[TerryO]

I wonder if bumping the hammer spring up 2lbs would help. Guess I need to get a gauge to check it for sure.

Increasing the hammer spring will only effect the double action pull.

[DWFAN]

Double action was +8lbs. Single was the 3lb 11oz.

[Jason Perkins]

I wonder if those can be made to doubble action only, I believe if you can make the gun doubble action only with out replacing any parts, just changing the parts that are in the gun you would be ok. That way you could get the doubble action lower?

[DWFAN]

I wonder if those can be made to doubble action only, I believe if you can make the gun doubble action only with out replacing any parts, just changing the parts that are in the gun you would be ok. That way you could get the doubble action lower?

Thats not a bad thought, but as long as I can keep the SA at 3.5lbs or more I'll keep with it. Otherwise, I have a M&P Pro that will get the starting job.

[gm iprod]

Now that is thinking outside the box.

I suspect that you would be pushing the meaning of the word "production". If it was built with a SA/DA operating trigger anything that was different to that would no longer be production! But if it was "broken" and failed to set the single action sear, then you would be shooting with a disadvantage and most probably be OK, UNTIL you win the match. Then all hell will break loose, from places 2 and lower.

[Jason Perkins]

I kind of thought that it would be pushing the limit myself, and most likely I'll be shooting open and maybe matalic- going for the 1920, but there are revolver shoters that shoot S&W 686 and they are bobbing the hammer and making them doubble action only so they can get the pull down alot lower than what they had. I thought that it would make it more of a matalic gun, but they are letting them shoot them in production. I just thought if they can do it why not every one else who is running a true doubble action? They should be able to do it to. If you let one you have to let the others, but I think production should mean a gun off the shelf not the action changed besides smoothed up a little and I think most people would agree. I think the production class was started to get people shooting Action Pistol and be able to compete whith a minimal amount of equipment and not have to spend several thousand on equipment like most of us have and do. I understand why the revolver shooters are making them DA only, it gives them a edge, with out a doubt it is easer with one lite trigger pull and the long sight radius, but there will be people getting mad at the cup because they won't be able beat the gut with the modified action because there's will be a out of box gun or a production gun, and bobbing the hammer would alter the looks of the outside as well as giving a big advantage in lock time- a faster hammer. So could production turn into a equipment game also???

[Alan550]

You're wrong about the bobbed hammers in Production. That's not allowed, but removing the single-action notch from the hammer IS allowed because it's not an "external change". Also, as I understand it, they plan to have separate classes for revolvers and semi-autos so they won't be shooting against each other.

If you "bob" the hammer on a revolver, it puts you in the Metallic Sight class, just like Aristocrat ribs or any other external changes that aren't available from the factory on that gun in its original configuration.

The ruling about the single-action notch came from the Head Referee at the Cup last year, so if you take the notch out, you're still ok for Production Class. Change something external besides the grips, checkering or other "cosmetic" changes and you're off to Metallic Sight class.

I've posted the rule from the NRA web site below to help clarify this confusing stuff. Hope it helps.

Alan~^~

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as

manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep

this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily

available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms

must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:

(1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering,

stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted.

(2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for

revolvers.

(3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are

permitted.

(4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be

adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but

they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic

sights are permitted.

(5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

(6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode.

(8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as

engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

(9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited:

(1) Single action only firearms

(2) Custom -shop firearms.

(3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are

prohibited.

(4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

(5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand.

(6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels.

(7) Race type holsters.

[Jason Perkins]

You're wrong about the bobbed hammers in Production. That's not allowed, but removing the single-action notch from the hammer IS allowed because it's not an "external change". Also, as I understand it, they plan to have separate classes for revolvers and semi-autos so they won't be shooting against each other.

If you "bob" the hammer on a revolver, it puts you in the Metallic Sight class, just like Aristocrat ribs or any other external changes that aren't available from the factory on that gun in its original configuration.

The ruling about the single-action notch came from the Head Referee at the Cup last year, so if you take the notch out, you're still ok for Production Class. Change something external besides the grips, checkering or other "cosmetic" changes and you're off to Metallic Sight class.

I've posted the rule from the NRA web site below to help clarify this confusing stuff. Hope it helps.

Alan~^~

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as

manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep

this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily

available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms

must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:

(1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering,

stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted.

(2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for

revolvers.

(3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are

permitted.

(4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be

adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but

they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic

sights are permitted.

(5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

(6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode.

(8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as

engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

(9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited:

(1) Single action only firearms

(2) Custom -shop firearms.

(3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are

prohibited.

(4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

(5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand.

(6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels.

(7) Race type holsters.

I thought the same as you on the bobbed hammer, but they let one of the guys at Columbia use one like it with the bobbed hammer (DEFFENTLY A EXTERNAL MOD)? I thought it was kind of wrong letting them do A doubble action only because it is a internal visable modication. I can look at the internals as plainly see that the notch is gone? Maybe the Head Referee doesn't know what he is looking at or know the rules on how they are listed? "The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows" They should list in the rules that you can "CHANGE THE FUNCTION OF ANY DA/SA JUST TO DA ONLY SO YOU CAN HAVE A LIGHTER DA PULL REGUARDLESS IF YOU CAN SEE A MODIFICATION OR NOT?" so every one knows what you can get away with?

[Griz]

so every one knows what you can get away with?

Not likely. Part of the "charm" of the Bianchi Cup is that the rules are like a box of chocolates

[DWFAN]

You're wrong about the bobbed hammers in Production. That's not allowed, but removing the single-action notch from the hammer IS allowed because it's not an "external change". Also, as I understand it, they plan to have separate classes for revolvers and semi-autos so they won't be shooting against each other.

If you "bob" the hammer on a revolver, it puts you in the Metallic Sight class, just like Aristocrat ribs or any other external changes that aren't available from the factory on that gun in its original configuration.

The ruling about the single-action notch came from the Head Referee at the Cup last year, so if you take the notch out, you're still ok for Production Class. Change something external besides the grips, checkering or other "cosmetic" changes and you're off to Metallic Sight class.

I've posted the rule from the NRA web site below to help clarify this confusing stuff. Hope it helps.

Alan~^~

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as

manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep

this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily

available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms

must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:

(1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering,

stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted.

(2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for

revolvers.

(3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are

permitted.

(4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be

adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but

they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic

sights are permitted.

(5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

(6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode.

(8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as

engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

(9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited:

(1) Single action only firearms

(2) Custom -shop firearms.

(3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are

prohibited.

(4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

(5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand.

(6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels.

(7) Race type holsters.

I thought the same as you on the bobbed hammer, but they let one of the guys at Columbia use one like it with the bobbed hammer (DEFFENTLY A EXTERNAL MOD)? I thought it was kind of wrong letting them do A doubble action only because it is a internal visable modication. I can look at the internals as plainly see that the notch is gone? Maybe the Head Referee doesn't know what he is looking at or know the rules on how they are listed? "The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows" They should list in the rules that you can "CHANGE THE FUNCTION OF ANY DA/SA JUST TO DA ONLY SO YOU CAN HAVE A LIGHTER DA PULL REGUARDLESS IF YOU CAN SEE A MODIFICATION OR NOT?" so every one knows what you can get away with?

Some revolvers come with a bobbed hammer from the factory. Maybe that was the case?

[Jason Perkins]

You're wrong about the bobbed hammers in Production. That's not allowed, but removing the single-action notch from the hammer IS allowed because it's not an "external change". Also, as I understand it, they plan to have separate classes for revolvers and semi-autos so they won't be shooting against each other.

If you "bob" the hammer on a revolver, it puts you in the Metallic Sight class, just like Aristocrat ribs or any other external changes that aren't available from the factory on that gun in its original configuration.

The ruling about the single-action notch came from the Head Referee at the Cup last year, so if you take the notch out, you're still ok for Production Class. Change something external besides the grips, checkering or other "cosmetic" changes and you're off to Metallic Sight class.

I've posted the rule from the NRA web site below to help clarify this confusing stuff. Hope it helps.

Alan~^~

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of production firearms as

manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting at the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep

this class from becoming an “Equipment Match” , Single Action only pistols are prohibited.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily

available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of firearms

must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows:

(1) Grips may be replaced or modified to fit the competitor’s hand or to facilitate loading. Checkering,

stippling, grip tape and grip sleeves are permitted.

(2) Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi-automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for

revolvers.

(3) Wide “target” style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured, are

permitted.

(4) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be

adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but

they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic

sights are permitted.

(5) Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

(6) All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

(7) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode.

(8) External finishes, either protective of decorative, or other non-functional embellishments. (i.e. Such as

engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

(9) Holsters must be designed for carry and suitable for everyday use.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited:

(1) Single action only firearms

(2) Custom -shop firearms.

(3) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm are prohibited. Front adjustable sights are

prohibited.

(4) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

(5) Thumb rests, orthopedic grips, grip or magazine extensions. No part of the grip may encircle the hand.

(6) Compensators, ported or weighted barrels.

(7) Race type holsters.

I thought the same as you on the bobbed hammer, but they let one of the guys at Columbia use one like it with the bobbed hammer (DEFFENTLY A EXTERNAL MOD)? I thought it was kind of wrong letting them do A doubble action only because it is a internal visable modication. I can look at the internals as plainly see that the notch is gone? Maybe the Head Referee doesn't know what he is looking at or know the rules on how they are listed? "The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows" They should list in the rules that you can "CHANGE THE FUNCTION OF ANY DA/SA JUST TO DA ONLY SO YOU CAN HAVE A LIGHTER DA PULL REGUARDLESS IF YOU CAN SEE A MODIFICATION OR NOT?" so every one knows what you can get away with?

Some revolvers come with a bobbed hammer from the factory. Maybe that was the case?

Nope, he told me he made it DA only and bobbed the hammer. Not saying that S&W doens't make 6" 686 production gun in DA only, I have never seen one listed, the only ones I have ever seen with a bobbed hammer is a CCW gun or a Peformance Center gun. I just want the NRA rules to state that modifications like that are allowed in Production class so every one knows when they read the rules they know that they are going against modified guns.