Low light/flashlight stages

[Strick]

Any of you guys have any ideas for low light or flashlight stuff. We shoot every wednesday but only have 1 large bay that has lights. We can get 4 stages in there but with 30 or so shooters it gets a little cramped at times.

I have not set up low light stuff before so I was wondering what are some things to think about when coming up with some good stages.

[redmanfixit]

Low light stages are pretty much the same as regular lighting cept they're dark! Hee Hee!

Most matches I've attended are very safety directed. Low light pushes it up a notch. RO has to be able to see. Keep people back further from the activity. Sweep the range between shooters, quickly to make sure there is no brass left to interfere with footing. (We put on some elaborate scenarios sometimes that are lost brass to keep them moving.) Pick up mags, score, tape and go. Everybody works!! ALWAYS use your best DI voice for "clear the range", before staging the next shooter! An extra set of eyes for tardy tapers is wise.

You get lots of opportunities to goof with people in constructive ways, if you give it a little thought.

Overlap the shoot targets creatively. In low light it's difficult to keep track of the actual layout and you can't see your hits, so it forces you to stay very focused. Mixing no shoots in there in creative ways also presents some nice confusion. If you have smarty pants people with fancy lasers and things, try putting some crepe paper streamers hanging down in front of the targets. Fancy gizmoes are neato but they sometimes don't work the way you imagine. Reduced scoring areas are fun too. We've done some matches that were ALL head shots! Trying to get a precise sight picture when your pupil is dilated for low contrast lighting is very educational. Yes you can learn to use the muzzle flash to get a sight picture. And see the downrange area. Even with good tritium sights, if it's dark enough to see them well, it's likely too dark to see what the target looks like. Unless you're wearing night vision. It is also possible to shoot accurately using only the top of the slide/barrel and NO sights, but you have to figure it out by doing it. Brian does say "see everything". Can you do it in the dark?

Managing a flashlight and doing all the normal gun handling stuff is a B#*%H. Inevitably, if it hasn't been practiced, someone will get owies from slides and that sort of thing because of unpracticed grip and support decisions. Bandaids are nice for that! Simply reminding people that it's smart to turn the light off at mag changes or when moving, will mess with your rhythm in amusing ways. (I seeeee you!) Ever practiced clearing a malfunction in the dark? Remember, no time outs when you really need to know how!! Oddly, darkness seems to attract malfunctions, among other pesky things. Minimal gaming allowed is fun. Sometimes we purposely have closed stages in low light and flashlight. If you carry and you are so unfortunate as to have draw, are you going to be able to see everything before you start? You should have a chance to "see" what it's like before you have to know! Don't forget the use of 3D targets too, lots of possibilities there!

Have fun. Be safe. Learn how!

[Duane Thomas]

If you have smarty pants people with fancy lasers and things, try putting some crepe paper streamers hanging down in front of the targets.

In my experience gun mounted lasers can be wonderfully useful tools for low light shooting, however they are illegal for use in IDPA so we really don't need to worry about that here.

[High Lord Gomer]

I ran a low/no light match once at our indoor range. I kept the lights on all the way at the back of the range so that the RO could keep a decent eye on the shooter, but at the front of the range I hung tarps from the ceiling to create dark "rooms" with targets in them. To make things a little safer/easier, I didn't have people enter the "rooms", but move laterally and shoot through the "doorways".

For good guys (no shoots) I had a few white hats that we would move among the targets for each shooter. The last person out of each room had to move the hats so the shooter wouldn't know what to shoot until they saw the hats. I did have to layout the targets such that no real advantage was given based on which targets got the white hats.

We ran that COF first in the dark then again with all the lights on. Since our match isn't IDPA, I told everyone that they could bring lasers, flashlights, glow-in-the-dark friends...whatever it took. It was a lot of fun.

[Boats]

We do a lot's of flashlight at our indoor range.

Shoot from a "bed" laying on your side with the pistol in a nightstand drawer. From under a "car" with a work light shining in your eyes. In front of a "jeep" low using it as cover with the jeeps headlights in your eyes. Multiple shots either side of a barracade were smoke becomes an issue. These props are pretty easy to come up with and add a lot to the match, not just the normal barrel barracades. Often times our RSO's will lead the shooter to the start position in total darkness using a red filtered flashlight. Makes relying on the flashlight when the buzzer goes off more important.

Boats

Edited November 22, 2009 by Boats

[Greg Bell]

Scenarios that force you into good vs bad target selection are good. If you can setup a "hallway" that works nice making you deal with the combination smoke and light.

SO should have low output red and white lights. Red for working with shooter without killing night vision. Use a low output blue or white for scoring. Last match I attended I provided red glow sticks for my buddies. We attached to our backs with a short loop of paracord just as a failsafe. We didn't need them the match was run perfectly safe just a piece of mind thing.

[Boats]

We use the glow sticks too, One color for the competitors another for the RSO & Scorer. Pin it to the back of your vest. Also keep the squad "corraled" in one area before shooting, no moving around in the dark.

Boats

[redmanfixit]

If you have smarty pants people with fancy lasers and things, try putting some crepe paper streamers hanging down in front of the targets.

In my experience gun mounted lasers can be wonderfully useful tools for low light shooting, however they are illegal for use in IDPA so we really don't need to worry about that here.

I know I'll probably go to hell for this but, locally there are people that think you should have an opportunity to try things out that you might find on someones gun that the rules don't cover. Since usually, most matches take place in daylight, on outdoor ranges, a laser sight won't help THAT much, if at all. Some lasers are bright enough. But you STILL can't know how it might work when you REALLY need it to. I realize that "rules nazies" will go ballistic about the idea of letting people try to figure out if they have gear that will work in a local match, but I really don't see why not.

Generally, there are fewer and fewer places for people to practice all the time, ESPECIALLY where I live. (Boulder County CO.) There is NO PLACE for someone to practice shooting in low light without the Police coming to ask you what the #$&% you think you're doing. Gunfire at night seems to attract attention!

Have you noticed that equipment that seems to work fine at the practice range, doesn't in a match? I don't trust ANY gear that I use in a match or for carry till I have run it in at least 10 stressed shooting situations without a malf. As long as people aren't doing something unsafe, I think there is always a way to help them mature as a shooter and gain experience that will help them understand where some of the opinions about gear people have, come from. It's a GAME we invented for practical practice, the GAME is not life and death. I think that figuring a way to help a visually impaired person (for example) find a way to be able to run a gun, competently is more important than the "rules" in a local match.

OK now I'll cower by my computer and wait for the flames to start rolling in!

[Classic_jon]

Any of you guys have any ideas for low light or flashlight stuff. We shoot every wednesday but only have 1 large bay that has lights. We can get 4 stages in there but with 30 or so shooters it gets a little cramped at times.

I have not set up low light stuff before so I was wondering what are some things to think about when coming up with some good stages.

I had an idea to put a lamp with an easily accessible light switch on it in the bay and that be the ONLY light source. Then when the beep hit they had to turn off the switch, grab a flashlight off the table that the lamp was on, turn it on and THEN start shooting.

The point of this was to simulate if someone were breaking into your house and you turned off the light so as to not back-light yourself and grabbed the flashlight to blind him and identify your target before firing. Toss in a hallway and a non-threat target or two that they will need to identify as non-threats and bingo, a low light/no light stage!

Make sure to rotate threat and non-threat targets around so that people can not game the stage!

[Nik Habicht]

If you have smarty pants people with fancy lasers and things, try putting some crepe paper streamers hanging down in front of the targets.

In my experience gun mounted lasers can be wonderfully useful tools for low light shooting, however they are illegal for use in IDPA so we really don't need to worry about that here.

I know I'll probably go to hell for this but, locally there are people that think you should have an opportunity to try things out that you might find on someones gun that the rules don't cover. Since usually, most matches take place in daylight, on outdoor ranges, a laser sight won't help THAT much, if at all. Some lasers are bright enough. But you STILL can't know how it might work when you REALLY need it to. I realize that "rules nazies" will go ballistic about the idea of letting people try to figure out if they have gear that will work in a local match, but I really don't see why not.

Generally, there are fewer and fewer places for people to practice all the time, ESPECIALLY where I live. (Boulder County CO.) There is NO PLACE for someone to practice shooting in low light without the Police coming to ask you what the #$&% you think you're doing. Gunfire at night seems to attract attention!

Have you noticed that equipment that seems to work fine at the practice range, doesn't in a match? I don't trust ANY gear that I use in a match or for carry till I have run it in at least 10 stressed shooting situations without a malf. As long as people aren't doing something unsafe, I think there is always a way to help them mature as a shooter and gain experience that will help them understand where some of the opinions about gear people have, come from. It's a GAME we invented for practical practice, the GAME is not life and death. I think that figuring a way to help a visually impaired person (for example) find a way to be able to run a gun, competently is more important than the "rules" in a local match.

OK now I'll cower by my computer and wait for the flames to start rolling in!

There's an easy way to do that that complies with IDPA's restriction on lasers: Send the competitor to a USPSA match. Lasers are legal in Open division. They may not be competitive, but you can certainly shoot them in a match for evaluation, while complying with match rules....

You may be able to work something out with an IDPA match director too --- if you don't expect to be scored against rules compliant competitors...

[Duane Thomas]

Bruce Bennett, MD of the Shelton Rifle & Pistol Club's monthly USPSA match on their indoor range, has a dedicated low light match once a year. He's done some really inventive stuff there. For instance:

A stage where the only illumination was a rotating police light bar.

A stage that starts with one shooting box at one side of the range, a second all the way on the other side of the range. 50 feet downrange you have an array of six targets spread out across the entire range (also about 50 feet wide). You start with an extremely bright light, set up across the range, shining in your eyes. Because of this, the targets are totally invisible. The trick is to figure out a way to block the light while still controlling the gun well enough to hit an A-zone at 50 feet. Then you have to move across the range and engage the same targets again, from the other box, and you find when you get there that there's another hugely bright light shining into your eyes from there.

A "house" stage where the house is built from hanging tarps, stapled to the ceiling, creating rooms and hallways. You run from room to room inside the house engaging targets. Thing is, the amount of light in different rooms varies, so you can find yourself rushing into a darkened room when your pupils are still contracted from just being inside a room with more light a few second before, and vice versa.

In this match - and no other - Bruce relaxes the rules on legal equipment, because his attitude is that this is people's opportunity to learn exactly what they can make work in low light. Thus if you want to use a clip-on light to run the stage, you can. Laser? Sure. I learned some interesting stuff at these matches. For instance, from watching an Open shooter run a "house" stage, faster than anyone else, I learned that you can use a C-More, with the dot turned down low, as a de facto night sight and it works great.

[Duane Thomas]

OK now I'll cower by my computer and wait for the flames to start rolling in!

We don't really do flames on BrianEnos.com. We have a higher standard of civility here.

[Boats]

I don't know the rational for IDPA's no weapon mounted light rule but expect it's because the "game" is self defense orientated. If a person is defending his home in a low light situation he has the obligation in most jurisdictions to identify a threat before using deadly force. Pointing a loaded gun at an object to identify it is not safe practice. In a stress situation it may go off with unintended consequences.

There is no doubt weapon mounted lights are a good way to hit targets and very useful to law enforcement or the military who are engaging identified threat targets. At home bump in the night it may well be your wife, kid, or someone that you don't want to shoot. Better to use a flashlight first to identify and engage with your handgun if the target turns out to be a threat

Boats

[Classic_jon]

OK now I'll cower by my computer and wait for the flames to start rolling in!

We don't really do flames on BrianEnos.com. We have a higher standard of civility here.

Well you know, Flames do make a good light source for a lowlight match.....

I guess that mean a light roasting and some Fava beans are right out though?

[Classic_jon]

I don't know the rational for IDPA's no weapon mounted light rule but expect it's because the "game" is self defense orientated. If a person is defending his home in a low light situation he has the obligation in most jurisdictions to identify a threat before using deadly force. Pointing a loaded gun at an object to identify it is not safe practice. In a stress situation it may go off with unintended consequences.

There is no doubt weapon mounted lights are a good way to hit targets and very useful to law enforcement or the military who are engaging identified threat targets. At home bump in the night it may well be your wife, kid, or someone that you don't want to shoot. Better to use a flashlight first to identify and engage with your handgun if the target turns out to be a threat

Boats

My IDPA club has a couple dedicated BUG and low light matches per year where pretty much anything goes. If you use a laser though your score sheet gets marked as such so that you are competing with others who also have them. At the last BUG match I learned that I needed to work on shooting with my little P3AT and ended up buying some pierce grip extensions for it and that helped a LOT! If we had not had the matches to where I found out how it shot "under stress" I would not have known about some things I needed to correct... or found out about them at a "bad time"

[Duane Thomas]

I don't know the rational for IDPA's no weapon mounted light rule

The rationale is that the light becomes a de facto barrel weight to hold down muzzle flip.

I see this thread edging into "real-world self-defense versus match shooting" territory which is verboten. Please reread the Forum Guidelines if you're unclear on this. Also note the topic of this thread is "Low light/flashlight stages, help with ideas" and let's avoid thread drift in the future. If you don't have a comment that relates to an idea for a low light stage, you probably shouldn't be posting in this thread. Thanks.

[redmanfixit]

OK now I'll cower by my computer and wait for the flames to start rolling in!

We don't really do flames on BrianEnos.com. We have a higher standard of civility here.

TRUTH! Haven't seen much in the way of flames. Although there is a little "stiffness" that becomes evident in some of the back and forth. The Mods are pretty quick as well as even handed. Pretty classy joint ya got here!

One thing I find excellent about these shooting games we play is they end up as cauldrons of innovation. Lots of times the "set dressing" is just for fun. Just underneath there are some training opportunities that are hard or impossible to set up on your own or even with a few friends.

Back to suggestions.

At my local club, we have set up some notable theme shoots. Zombies are always good. Of course on an indoor range you have to send the rounds toward the bullet trap. The repetitive pattern that emerges is kind of like a multiplex theater. We have designed sight barriers of sheets of cardboard and light wooden frames we hang from the support structure of the range to divide the shooting positions into lanes and we set up scenarios in which you move by one means or another laterally across the range. Maze's are nice too. Sheets of black plastic hung up to form corridors. Doorways to pass through. The occasional dead end to get stuck in on the way to the firing line, if the range is long enough. Of course you have to be sure you don't impair air flow with all the props and junk!!

Animated targets are fun. Several of the regular troops are handy with a welder and soldering iron. It's fun to have shoot targets that do unexpected things. We keep the delicate parts low and make the shootable uppers of the usual paper and wood. We have even had a target that advances toward the shooter when they step into the lane. Not too fast or too close but it is quite a surprise. The stages are easy to animate by using motion detectors that normally trip security lights, with relays to switch the power and windshield wiper motors for motivators driven by emergency lighting batteries. There are kit boards out on the net that are adaptable controllers. They have on board simple logic and memory programmable from a laptop RS232 port. Don't cost too much either. I think it's right use of technology!

We have a modified three wheel powered chair that we have had the shooter sit on and move them across the range at a steady pace. Many people find it very disorienting to shoot while moving when they are not afoot. A couple of the cops that come out to play with us, forgot how to run their guns because of the odd effect of not walking or running while shooting.

I suppose that there are people that get a lot of practice at that but they don't seem to want to come play with us. That may be one reason to practice shooting targets that are moving! 3D targets are great fun. Recently one of our deviant regular contributors found some polymer shell targets that withstand multiple hits. My wife went out and found the remnants of Halloween costumes and we dressed them as monsters. Those make great animated targets. The scoring turned out to be simple because the rear part of the target was flat as the shell was vacuum molded. We used a standard USPSA target taped to the back and scored the hits where they penetrated the paper.

All these stages are lost brass. It really takes people that are willing to hustle to score, reset and tape. If you want to get the match over and the range cleaned up by a reasonable hour. Since we have a concrete floor, there are sweepers to get brass out of the path so no one stumbles with a loaded gun. ( Kind of like the people that show up for USPSA and IDPA matches are anyway.)

These matches have helped me learn techniques I might never have had the chance to try out other wise. I can actually get a sight picture from my muzzle flash, for example. It is possible to shoot accurately that way but you must have opportunities to get the experience. Target identification is obviously more difficult when the light is low. Actually having to find targets and keep track of your hits in the dark is a challenge. How well do you know your gun? Try clearing a malfunction in the dark, on the clock, while rolling along on a little cart! It really unnerves a lot of people. Darkness attracts malfunctions like crazy!

We've had shoot targets pop up from a barrel that appears to be full of fulminating acid. Using a theatrical smoke generator.

I really do try not to let people know how much time I spend on this stuff, I'm pretty certain the veneer of normalcy I try to maintain in the community would fall to tatters in that light. You've been warned!

[Bill Nesbitt]

IDPA only requires clubs to hold 6 IDPA matches a year. If you want to hold a match where lasers and gun mounted lights are allowed, just announce the rules ahead of time and say that it isn't an IDPA match.

[High Lord Gomer]

...

I really do try not to let people know how much time I spend on this stuff, I'm pretty certain the veneer of normalcy I try to maintain in the community would fall to tatters in that light. You've been warned!

I want to come shoot some of your matches!! Where are they?

[John Z Sr]

Anyone in the North Carolina area should come out for the DAY/NIGHT/DAY match at "The Range" in Oxford, NC,,, home of the Carolina Cup for some great night shooting

[redmanfixit]

...

I really do try not to let people know how much time I spend on this stuff, I'm pretty certain the veneer of normalcy I try to maintain in the community would fall to tatters in that light. You've been warned!

I want to come shoot some of your matches!! Where are they?

Now it gets really disorienting! Boulder Colorado. Would you believe that's there's an actual Boulder Rifle Club!! (You likely have to live around here to really understand that.) We have lots of tech tinkerer's and leftovers. There is the St. Valentines Day Massacre, Halloweenie Match, for two of the named matches. Sometimes we just make up occasions. It's fun to have guests! Personally I like to go for the grin factor!