big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My SP01 developed a problem today and seek help from any experienced CZers out there... I searched this forum as well as CZ Forum but no joy (admittedly my search fu is weak right now). Please help a brother out! Symptoms of problem: A friend of mine was shooting the gun and on shot #6 got a click instead of a bang. My son was there to eyewitness the problem. He reports that the ejected cartridge shows no sign of a firing pin strike on the primer. Confirmation of problem: Later I get home and examine the SP01. I attempted to duplicate the problem using primed empty cases. Successfully duplicated problem but it is intermittent. Troubleshooting: I removed the slide from the frame and examined the pistol more closely. On the frame, the firing pin lifter (part #14) appears to move up and down properly as the trigger is depressed. On the slide, the firing pin safety plunger (#58) appears to be moving freely and is under spring tension as normal. I then attempted to hold the firing pin safety in while using a punch to depress the firing pin, to see if it would protrude from the breechface as normal... this took a few tries and three hands but eventually I got it... firing pin protruded through the breechace as expected. Also noted at this time, the firing pin is under a pretty significant amount of pressure from the firing pin spring (and maybe too much pressure?). Well, at least the firing pin spring does not appeart to be broken (but I don't know for sure since I have not visually inspected it yet). Hmmm... no obvious causes for the problem yet. Maybe the firing pin channel is dirty or obstructed with grit? Maybe a piece of the firing pin spring has broken off? I make a mental note of these possibilities and move on... With the pistol reassembled, I dry fire it a couple of times and notice something peculiar. The aft end of the firing pin (which is struck by the hammer during the firing cycle) appears to be pressed inward slightly at rest. I cycle and dryfire several times and continue observing the firing pin position. it appears that the firing pin is sometimes inset, and sometimes further out. At this point I have a theory. Something is in the firing pin channel interfering with the movement of the firing pin. Maybe the firing pin retaining roll pin has broken inside the slide, or a piece of it has broken off... maybe the FPS plunger cracked or a piece broke off. Maybe the firing pin is actually broken in the channel... I confess that I have been dryfiring this gun A LOT and that something weird may have happened. I have not yet driven out the firing pin retaining roll pin, but that is the next logical step (or I could just send the gun back to Mike Eagleshield or Angus for their assessment). Anybody experienced or even heard of anything like this happening? Any likely causes for what I'm describing? Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'd open it up and take a look.. I am not a big believer of sending back to the factory if I can fix it myself) your observations seem to lead to some possibilities. some possibilities of interference to the the firing pin. firing pin roll pin is bent or broken ( is the roll pin a single or double?) firing pin spring is broken. firing pin is broken obstruction on the firing pin block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Cesar, Knowing that you have probably dry-fired the crap out of that gun, pull the FP and look for FP spring fragments. Later, Chuck PS: You going to shoot production at Area II? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I have had the exact same problem on three different CZ-75s. The first was a CZ-75B. Just as you described. Pulled the trigger, click instead of bang, not a mark on the primer. I assumed the firing pin lock had failed to disengage. Got rid of the gun. Was honest with the buyer about what had happened, and was amazed when they didn't care. Second time, I wanted to do the IDPA classifier in ESP and didn't have an ESP division legal gun. A friend loaned me his Springfield P9, out of which he'd removed the firing pin lock. This meant there was no way the firing pin lock could fail to disengage. Life was good. The gun did the exact same thing to me, during the classifier. So, at this point I had a big question mark in my mind about CZ-75s, but hey, one gun with a firing pin lock, another that had been modified by removing the firing pin lock, obviously the problem was the firing pin lock, or removing it, I figured I had the perfect solution to the problem. I tracked down and bought a minty, original production CZ-75. This gun had NEVER had a firing pin lock. How could I lose? The gun did the exact same thing to me as the previous two guns. I discussed this matter with Bruce Gray. Now, when Bruce starts talking about metallurgy and gun parts, he can swiftly get over my head, but his response went something like, "Oh yeah, I know the problem." Seems there are two parts inside the CZ-75 design that, unless they're in perfect alignment, you'll pull the trigger, the hammer will fall, you'll get a click instead of a bang. "But just send the gun to me, I'll make sure it's the way it should be," he said. My reply, "Or I could just not shoot CZ-75s." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 -snip--- "Oh yeah, I know the problem." Seems there are two parts inside the CZ-75 design that, unless they're in perfect alignment, you'll pull the trigger, the hammer will fall, you'll get a click instead of a bang. " Duane, Do you remember what the 2 parts were? TIA, Chuck (I am guessing roll pin and firing pin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I discussed this matter with Bruce Gray. Now, when Bruce starts talking about metallurgy and gun parts, he can swiftly get over my head, but his response went something like, "Oh yeah, I know the problem." Seems there are two parts inside the CZ-75 design that, unless they're in perfect alignment, you'll pull the trigger, the hammer will fall, you'll get a click instead of a bang. "But just send the gun to me, I'll make sure it's the way it should be," he said. My reply, "Or I could just not shoot CZ-75s." that's pretty interesting... any enlightenment would be great..would love to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Do you remember what the 2 parts were? Believe me, if I did I would have mentioned them. (I am guessing roll pin and firing pin) Nope, even I could remember "roll pin" and "firing pin". I remember - to the extent I remember - the two parts being more esotericly named, and an even vaguer sense that they were down in the frame, in the fire control system. Of course if Bruce was to tell me my memory was all wet in that regard, I wouldn't exactly be thunderstruck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I've sent Bruce an email, maybe he can pitch in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 I'd open it up and take a look.. I am not a big believer of sending back to the factory if I can fix it myself)your observations seem to lead to some possibilities. some possibilities of interference to the the firing pin. firing pin roll pin is bent or broken ( is the roll pin a single or double?) firing pin spring is broken. firing pin is broken obstruction on the firing pin block Roger that... will open the hood and look inside. Firing pin roll pin is a double. Gun is a 2008 model. Thanks Stuart! Will advise as situation develops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Cesar,Knowing that you have probably dry-fired the crap out of that gun, pull the FP and look for FP spring fragments. Later, Chuck PS: You going to shoot production at Area II? Chuck, Will do. I estimate the number of dry snaps to exceed 10K but I haven't really thought about the quantity (until this happened). I did break a trigger return spring also, which I attribute to dryfire. Thanks amigo. PS I will be at Area 2 but not shooting this year. I am coaching two new shooters from my town and I want to give them my undivided attention. Next year I will be shooting production though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Do you remember what the 2 parts were? Believe me, if I did I would have mentioned them. (I am guessing roll pin and firing pin) Nope, even I could remember "roll pin" and "firing pin". I remember - to the extent I remember - the two parts being more esotericly named, and an even vaguer sense that they were down in the frame, in the fire control system. Of course if Bruce was to tell me my memory was all wet in that regard, I wouldn't exactly be thunderstruck. I'm really intrigued by your experience on this Duane. I've crawled all over CZ forums looking for clues and didn't find anything that was an exact match discrepancy... the most common CZ pistol problems cited seem to be the extractor needs recutting, weak springs of some sort (especially extractor spring and mag springs), disconnector rail and breech face edge needing polish. The closest gripe to the "click instead of bang" I found was breakage of the FP roll pin, and that was rare (Walt Sherrill was the only citation it I think). Look forward to hearing more on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I've sent Bruce an email, maybe he can pitch in here. that would be great.. intrigued with what is hanging up on a 85combat/Pre B model gun...much mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooterbenedetto Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 I had the same problem when I first got the spo1. I converted to single action and took the firing pin block out . so far it goes bang now every time. Oh, by the way I hope you guys have spare SPRINGS!! its a must for this gun. SB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 New info and possible explanation for gripe: Removed firing pin, firing pin spring, FPB plunger and FPB plunger spring. Springs, FPB and Firing Pin intact and appear unharmed. Found metal fragments (one big one and one little one, both showing some black finish) in firing pin channel... attempting to post pic, hope this works. Fragments appear to have broken off of the outer FP roll pin, difficult to see but visible in pic. I believe the breakage to be related to lots of dryfire but this is only my theory. Can the FP roll pins be replaced with a solid pin or something more durable? I have never had the firing pin roll pin out before today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My gun has a single roll pin that I have beaten the crap out of and it works just fine. BTW: I am going to stop at Angus's shop on the way into town tomorrow. Do you want me to get something for you? Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Chuck, I'd like an extra roll pin set or two (parts 57A and 57B) if it's not any trouble. I also sent an email to Scott at CZ Warranty in KS describing the problem. Based on what I've learned today, I think I need to keep some spare rollpins and springs in my shooting bag. Good thing I wasn't slotted to shoot A2 Production this year, I would have been really stressed right now Thanks amigo. Kindest Regards, Caesar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 Thanks to all for the quick and valuable input on this issue. In moments I'll be driving to Mesa for A2 (gonna see some kin in Peoria and Scottsdale first) so will be offline for a while (maybe days). For those shooting A2, see you in Mesa! Kindest Regards, Caesar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double_pedro Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 Just an FYI - the roll pin in the slide actually stops the forward travel of the FP if there's nothing that the FP contacts in the chamber (like a snap cap)....Sigs are the same way (and can be prone to similar problems when dry-firing without a snap cap). Also, the snap caps that CZ includes quickly get a hole worn into the green "primer" and may no longer prevent the FP from contacting the roll pin when dry firing....that's why CZ gives you a bunch of extra green "primers". Do you dry-fire a lot without a snap cap or with a "worn" snap cap? It looks like the groove of the outer roll pin may have been getting hit/caught on the ledge of the FP that makes contact with the roll pin if you let it (e.g. when dry-firing without a snap cap). When re-installing everything, make sure the groove of the outer roll pin is facing up. Regarding the perfect alignment of the two parts for a CZ75 to work...I can think of a few things that need to be aligned but none that are particularly prone to misalignment or problems in normal use. I would also like to hear what that was in reference to. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My gun has a single roll pin that I have beaten the crap out of and it works just fine. BTW: I am going to stop at Angus's shop on the way into town tomorrow. Do you want me to get something for you?Later, Chuck Chuck, I'd like an extra roll pin set or two (parts 57A and 57B) if it's not any trouble. I also sent an email to Scott at CZ Warranty in KS describing the problem. Based on what I've learned today, I think I need to keep some spare rollpins and springs in my shooting bag. Good thing I wasn't slotted to shoot A2 Production this year, I would have been really stressed right now Thanks amigo. Kindest Regards, Caesar Don't get too happy. I still have to remember to get them... Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrieH43 Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 My gun has a single roll pin that I have beaten the crap out of and it works just fine. BTW: I am going to stop at Angus's shop on the way into town tomorrow. Do you want me to get something for you?Later, Chuck Chuck, I'd like an extra roll pin set or two (parts 57A and 57B) if it's not any trouble. I also sent an email to Scott at CZ Warranty in KS describing the problem. Based on what I've learned today, I think I need to keep some spare rollpins and springs in my shooting bag. Good thing I wasn't slotted to shoot A2 Production this year, I would have been really stressed right now Thanks amigo. Kindest Regards, Caesar Yeah, I'm glad you're not shooting too...then I'd feel worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Just an FYI - the roll pin in the slide actually stops the forward travel of the FP if there's nothing that the FP contacts in the chamber (like a snap cap)....Sigs are the same way (and can be prone to similar problems when dry-firing without a snap cap). Also, the snap caps that CZ includes quickly get a hole worn into the green "primer" and may no longer prevent the FP from contacting the roll pin when dry firing....that's why CZ gives you a bunch of extra green "primers". Do you dry-fire a lot without a snap cap or with a "worn" snap cap?It looks like the groove of the outer roll pin may have been getting hit/caught on the ledge of the FP that makes contact with the roll pin if you let it (e.g. when dry-firing without a snap cap). When re-installing everything, make sure the groove of the outer roll pin is facing up. Regarding the perfect alignment of the two parts for a CZ75 to work...I can think of a few things that need to be aligned but none that are particularly prone to misalignment or problems in normal use. I would also like to hear what that was in reference to. Good luck. Thanks for the input DP. I dryfire a lot, and have used up all of the green rubber inserts for my dummy round. Probably busted the rollpins because the inserts are worn out. I've requested some rollpins and extra dummy rounds/inserts from Scott at CZ Warranty Support... hopefully with some care I can avoid this problem in the future. I'll also be sure to install the rollpins with the groove facing upward. Kindest Regards, Caesar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 Don't get too happy. I still have to remember to get them... Later, Chuck Hi Chuck, Just got some internet connectivity (woohoo!) and am catching up on your reply. If you read this in time, don't worry about remembering to ask Angus. I'm planning to call Angus later today (Thursday) and will attempt to buy some rollpins from him directly. If you don't read this in time, then I guess we'll have some extra rollpins on hand! Better to have extra and not need them, than to need them and not have them. Thanks amigo! Kindest Regards, Caesar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SOW Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) On the CZ forum, I found this on dry firing; and it works. \ If you don't need the snap caps, an 'O'-ring of the proper size will press in behind the back end of the FP. The hammer drops on the o-ring and the firing pin is never hit. Edited November 13, 2009 by 1SOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 On the CZ forum, I found this on dry firing; and it works.\ If you don't need the snap caps, an 'O'-ring of the proper size will press in behind the back end of the FP. The hammer drops on the o-ring and the firing pin is never hit. Thanks 1SOW, good advice. Will try it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_kahuna Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 All fixed. I stopped by Angus' shop yesterday and inquired about replacement rollpins. He provided a set and offered to installed them for me. I asked how much and he said no charge. Simply awesome customer support! System checks 5.0 in functional test. Angus rocks! I emailed Scott at CZ warranty center and told him about the situation also. He is sending me some spare rollpins and also some extra snapcap inserts. CZ customer service has been awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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