Stop fighting the dang gun!

[Aloha Robert]

I've been shooting for years. Not reg competition like most of you, just fun. A quote always stuck with me that seems to be appropriate to this thread. "Rigidity means a dead hand, flexibility means a living hand. One must understand this fully" Miyamoto Musashi,Samurai (1584-1645).

This quote really tickles me because, in my view, it's very hard to have a "living hand" with classic or neutral technique. It's unatural use of muscles and leverage will ALLWAYS make this an issue to be dealt with someway, some how. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method, the hand is in a natural or "living" position and there is no "fighting", the gun because it's a natural position. Everything happens automatically and you can shift your "awareness" to other areas.

[benos]

For me, what seemed "unnatural" in the beginning, after some dedicated practice, turned out to be quite an alive, flexible grip in the end.

When you've practiced enough so that you can feel, with dead certainty, the perfect grip before your hands are on the gun, you know you're on the right road.

be

[38supPat]

I find my ideal grip tension is the same for every gun. I'll shoot my best with my .22 Ruger and my .45 1911 if I use the same grip I use for my open gun. The difference in amount of recoil does not seem to matter, though there is a tendency to want to grip harder with the harder recoiling gun. I'll not shoot well when this happens. Another way to try this is shoot some minor loads through your gun and get used to the amount of grip needed, then go back to major loads and pay attention to your grip and the results.

The neutral grip works equally well for all pistols and revolvers.I don't have to learn a specific technique for one gun and another for the rest.

[sigsauerfan]

back from a practice session and i worked on a more ''relaxed'' grip with less aiming and more instinctive shooting...and it worked good with better consistency even if i must say that it isn't natural yet for me and the ''bad'' habit of pressurizing my forearms look for any ways to come back lol.

for me it's a nice find, i feel i should maybe try this approach for awhile..

Edited August 31, 2010 by sigsauerfan

[Aloha Robert]

The neutral grip works equally well for all pistols and revolvers.I don't have to learn a specific technique for one gun and another for the rest.

I think this is a reasonable approach, for those who routinely shoot a lot of different pistols and especially for those that carry on duty.

HOWEVER, we are talking about racing, and one should be open minded as to what the best technique is for racing if the goal is to win. One does not use the same techniques at the Indy 500 as driving on the street to the grocery. Those that limit themselves to everyday techniques will not do as well on the racetrack as the street. It's a very individual thing and those that want to shoot their raceguns like a street gun, I respect. But it's not a reason to limit those who want to go faster.

I can't think of a single racing sport where the top guys use everyday techniques exclusively. For example try using even an "expert" ski with advanced recreational technique and the pro racing with a racing ski will beat you every time on the race course. You might leave him in the dust on a steep rutted rocky run, but he will cream you everytime on a race course.

[38supPat]

You seem confused on the difference between techniques and parts, probably because you are in the business of selling parts. Techniques can be used anytime with anything. Yes, I use the techniques I learned on the racetrack during my everyday street driving, I heel and toe, I pick my lines and I look ahead. I brake very much the same and handle the car with the same smoothness required on the track, I just don't put the car at the limits of adhesion that I do when racing. Similar with shooting, there are no "advanced" techniques. The guys that shoot well and win matches are just very, very good at the basics. Because of this the are able to shoot at the limits better than someone who is not as good at them.

It been stated before, the only three thing you need to do is1) find the target, 2) get the gun on target, 3) keep the gun on target while it fires. The GM's just waste less time doing that. Just like an F1 driver can manage to keep the car at the limits more consistently throughout a lap using the same techniques as a weekend racer (just more finely honed) the GMs use the same techniques but can run closer to the edge.

Somewhere, I'll find the link later, is a discussion where BE regretted calling his book "Beyond Fundamentals" because you really can't go beyond them. You can either execute them or you can't.

I don't know if you've driven an open wheel racecar before. I have and I can tell you the techniques are the same as my Touring Car racer. The difference is the car has to be driven at the limits and there's a much smaller window of where you are at the lower edge of those limits or the upper edge where lose control, the Touring car is more forgiving and a street car is even more forgiving but all are driven the same way.

A Production gun, a Limited gun and an Open gun are the same. The technique does not change but the limits get much tighter as you move up to Open.

In your last paragraph you compare an expert skier on recreation skis vs. A pro skier on pro skis. How about you reverse that and see what happens? The pro on rec skis will still win, because he is used to running at the limits all the time and the "expert" is not, and if you are not able to run at the limit on racing gear you will fall down... But they still use the same basic techniques.

[38supPat]

Or were you infering that guys like TGO, Matt Burkett, Ron Avery, Max M., Travis T. Use "everyday" techniques and are therefore limiting themselves?

[Youngeyes]

You seem confused on the difference between techniques and parts, probably because you are in the business of selling parts. Techniques can be used anytime with anything. Yes, I use the techniques I learned on the racetrack during my everyday street driving, I heel and toe, I pick my lines and I look ahead. I brake very much the same and handle the car with the same smoothness required on the track, I just don't put the car at the limits of adhesion that I do when racing. Similar with shooting, there are no "advanced" techniques. The guys that shoot well and win matches are just very, very good at the basics. Because of this the are able to shoot at the limits better than someone who is not as good at them.

It been stated before, the only three thing you need to do is1) find the target, 2) get the gun on target, 3) keep the gun on target while it fires. The GM's just waste less time doing that. Just like an F1 driver can manage to keep the car at the limits more consistently throughout a lap using the same techniques as a weekend racer (just more finely honed) the GMs use the same techniques but can run closer to the edge.

Somewhere, I'll find the link later, is a discussion where BE regretted calling his book "Beyond Fundamentals" because you really can't go beyond them. You can either execute them or you can't.

I don't know if you've driven an open wheel racecar before. I have and I can tell you the techniques are the same as my Touring Car racer. The difference is the car has to be driven at the limits and there's a much smaller window of where you are at the lower edge of those limits or the upper edge where lose control, the Touring car is more forgiving and a street car is even more forgiving but all are driven the same way.

A Production gun, a Limited gun and an Open gun are the same. The technique does not change but the limits get much tighter as you move up to Open.

In your last paragraph you compare an expert skier on recreation skis vs. A pro skier on pro skis. How about you reverse that and see what happens? The pro on rec skis will still win, because he is used to running at the limits all the time and the "expert" is not, and if you are not able to run at the limit on racing gear you will fall down... But they still use the same basic techniques.

I'm impressed. That really made a lot of sense. You see the ball, you hit the ball you catch the ball, you throw the ball. Basics at max level and skill. Thanks for the insight.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Youngeyes

[BCrane]

Good post. I got a 'lesson' in fighting the gun today, and all I was doing was chronoing some rounds...

Since I've been shooting the dot (about a month now), I havent been able to get the dot to return to where it was when I pulled the trigger. I tried relaxing my grip, squeezing harder with the support hand, different support hand position.. and nothing was really getting me there... I wasnt 'fighting' the gun per se, but this was bugging the hell outta me.

I had just started reading BEnos' book, and was up to the part where he talks about HIS grip. I tried placing my strong hand thumb on top of my support hand rather than the thumb safety.. Wouldnt'cha know it.. the dot falls back to the same place every time. My open gun is the first gun Ive owned w/ a thumb safety, so I just thought hell.. thats there my thumb goes. Everything else just started falling into place..

Edited September 2, 2010 by BCrane

[benos]

Nice. In the end, nuetrality is where you want to be.

be