MBaneACP Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Okay folks...need some thoughts... Kimber 9mm back from Kimber, who says the extraction problems are the result of White Box ball. They tuned the extractor (which cut the failure to extract from 50 out of 100 to 10-15 out of 100); on the second trip replaced the 14 pound spring with a 12 pounder (down to 5 out of 100). It's a classic irritating intermitent problem...I can't get through a match wothout a couple (or more) failures to extract, a royal pain in the butt in IDPA, where you're not exactly wallowing in magazines. Kimber says the chamber is to spec. The failures usually occur after 50 or so rounds, so I'm still thinking the White Box is sooting up a rough chamber. This trip, they cut the spring back to 10 pounds (with a 22 pound mainspring). I happened to talk to Dick Heinie today who said optimum spring set-up on 9mms is 12/22. I'll try to get out tomorrow and run some rounds through the gun, White Box and some Armscor 124s I've got around here. Still, White Box runs flawlessly through all my other 9mms...as I posted elsewhere, I just ran almost 10K of it through a dozen guns last weekend without a single ammunition-based failure. Heinie's experience is similar. One of the suggested solutions was "run hotter loads." Grumble grumble...If I'd'a wanted hotter loads, I'd'a got a .38 Super. I'm open to any and all suggestions. Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Kimber's new external extractor? Kimber 9mm back from Kimber, who says the extraction problems are the result of White Box ball. If their guns won't run Wally-World val-u-paks...then they better get out of the 9mm business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 If it only happens with Winchester white box 9mm, quit firing Winchester white box 9mm in this gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Assuming everything they said is ok is ok, I would try a lighter mainspring, say 18lb. I use one with a 10lb recoil spring and have never had any kind of problem Even with under 125pf loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Were the gun mine, I'd be doing some "exploratory surgery." Measure the heck out of the chamber, perhaps drop a new or freshly-sharpened chamber reamer in there to make sure it truly is to spec, then some judicious polishing. If all is correct, then have a go at increasing extractor tension. One thing to look at, while measuring, is the dimension of the breechface wall opposite the extractor. If it is too wide (I just got a "9mm" slide that had a .40 breechface dimension. Sent it back.) the case can be slipping off the extractor and failing to extract. Are the cases stuck in the chamber, or flopping around in the action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted November 21, 2003 Author Share Posted November 21, 2003 It's s standard 1911 extractor. I'm going to put some various kinds of rounds through it before the snow sets in tonight. Although I mainly shot White Box, it had the same extractor problem with my mixed lot 9mms (mostly 124s) and Armscor, which is indeed hotter. Kimber--and BTW, their customer service/custom shop guys have been super--uses 124gr PMC ball and various self-defense loads to test the guns. The problem on this trip back is that they couldn't get the gun to malfunction, which made it hard to fix the problem. Kimber is overniting me an 18-pound mainspring, so I'll give that a try as well. Patrick, the rounds always partially extract and are ususally left slightly protruding into the chamber. I'm also feeling a slight binding of the slide about a quarter inch before full retraction. It's not much, but I suspect it doesn't take much to throw the system out of whack on a 9. I have a friend with a good finish reamer in 9mm, so I guess that's the next step. Thanks all! Normally, I *expect* my competition guns to be finicky, so this wouldn't be that big a deal. But because I travel so much I was actually looking for a make-it-easy-final-solution IDPA gun...show up in a town...run to the Wally World and buy whatever's available...shoot a match. Nine's a little more elbow-friendly for us DOGs* (decrepit old guys), plus as readily available as any cartridge on earth. I know I know...I can hear you all whispering...Glock...Glock...Glock... Again, thanks... Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Check the breechface. The sidewall opposite the extractor must be smooth and not too wide (that is, away from the extractor.) The "bind" you feel might be a toolmark on the sidewall, rubbing hard on the rim. The only other thing, and it would be an oddity I've seen exactly twice in a 1911, is this: Is the top, unfed round dinged at the front edge of the case mouth, at 12 o'clock? If so, the case is falling off the breechface/extractor, and the rim hits the case mouth, stripping it off the extractor and back into the chamber. The solution in both cases was a new frame. (Since both were aftermarket, no-name frames, it was a small loss.) Did you send them a box of the ammo you were having problems with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 It's s standard 1911 extractor. Make sure it's a 9mm extractor and not a .45 extractor, they are quite different. You need to check the tip faces and angles to make sure they are sharp and not rounded over or that could cause FTE's. Also, hold the slide up to the light with a round under the hook (looking from underneath it) and eyeball how the extractor is mating: is the flat of the rim against the inside flat edge of the extractor? Some 9mm are set with the tip digging into the brass web and that doesn't work right. I (and STI) agree with Mr Heinie about using 12/22 on a 9mm 1911. That's been in mine for it's life with no extraction problems until the tension slithered down to about 6 ounces from lack of maintenance by me over many thousands of rounds. I would definitely polish the throat with the symptoms you describe. Use 600# wet/dry paper and the smooth end (shank) of a drill bit that fits in the throat just right with sandpaper wrapped around it. use oil and sand straight in and outward, not rotary. Don't try to remove material, just work until it's mirror shiny. FWIW: I've never heard of problems with white box ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I know I know...I can hear you all whispering...Glock...Glock...Glock...Again, thanks... Michael B Bite your tongue and ask some kind stranger to slap you silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 22, 2003 Share Posted November 22, 2003 If you're experiencing slide bind at the end of travel the recoil spring may be a bit overlength. The following information is from ISMI. I normally have to trim mine about 2 coils. To check slide travel: 1. With the pistol fully assembled but without the recoil spring installed, pull the slide fully to the rear. Using a pencil, make a mark on the frame that corresponds with the front of the slide. 2. Reassemble pistol with the recoil spring installed, pull slide fully to the rear. If the mark lines up with the front of the slide you are getting full slide travel and nothing further is required. If the marks do not line up, measure the distance between the marks. Remove spring and trim as needed - each coil removed will result in approximately 0.100" of additional slide travel (reduction in solid height of the spring) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 (threaddrift) But I'm really curious so I just have to ask...why is a 12/22 combo be perfect for a 9 when most are using even lighter on a 40? I was guessing a 9 would probably even need something lighter like 10/15? I'm also feeling a slight binding of the slide about a quarter inch before full retraction. It's not much, but I suspect it doesn't take much to throw the system out of whack on a 9. I was hoping you meant "initial retraction" which could probably point to the disconnector binding in the underside of the slide (that edge in the disconnector rail). But jeez, I'm a total newbie to 1911's myself... so I can only wish you good luck and hope you can solve that problem soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 I'm wondering if this could be something as simple as Winchester white box 9mm (and, apparently, Armscor) not being loaded as hot as the other ammo you're firing. 12/22 does seem awfully heavy to me for a 9mm 1911. I mean, I'm running 12/17 in my .45. The gun works just fine. (Just passed 27K - yes, it's through the break-in period.) I wouldn't go under 17 pounds on the mainspring, myself vis-a-vis ignition reliability. In a 9mm, I'd think 10/17 or even 9/17 would be the way to go. Tell ya what, call up Wolff Gunsprings, get the springs, try 10/17. I'd just about bet the gun works a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 I'm running a 10.5 and a 17 in my Springfield 9mm, it runs like a scalded dog. On Blazer mostly, but works fine with White box as well..... Change to lighter springs, and as suggested above, check to make sure your recoil spring isn't to long. Plus does it fail to extract only on empty mags? I've seen those metalform type mags have the follower tip up and strip the case off the extractor before..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 FWIW, I also run a 10/17 in my Sprinfield 9mm. I shoot 147 JHP handloads 1.181 OAL very soft 858 fps the last time I chronoed. About once every 300 rounds or so I'll have a round hang up on chambering, so I'm thinking about going to an 11/17 combo, or I might just try cleaning it. I'll also try my Glock load which is a 147 JHP at 1.157 an 890 fps and see if that makes any difference. The recoil springs are all Wolfe variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 1.181" does seem a little long to me. I think you're on the right track in considering shortening the rounds a bit. I load 147-gr. to 1.155". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRG65 Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 My standard reloading procedure is to load to the max length for the magazine. That is were the 1.181 came from. Yeah its a little long spec is 1.169 max. I had also heard that 1911's did better with longer loaded 9 and 40 rounds so that is another reason I used the 1.181. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 Just for the record, I had a chance to sit down with Bruce Gray and the 9mm Kimber. He decided to "blueprint" the gun...here's Brucie's report: "Breechface too wide Extractor fit incorrect/retension; too much tension on tip of extractor Barrel bed/link too long; barrel couldn't unlock 100% under pressure Barrel and slide interior sandblasted, causing drag during unlocking Feed ramp was hitting magazines, causing stalling while unlocking Mainspring replaced with 17X Wolff Lightly polished chamber" He also replaced the sear and extractor, "played with" the trigger, straightened the front sight and suggested I get a Bar-Sto barrel. The gun is now 100% with a great trigger. Michael B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Looks like everything the factory said was right was not. Combine that with a 22lb mainspring which is way too heavy for a 9mm with low PF ammo. I am suprised it didn't stop more than it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 *QUOTE* I'm also feeling a slight binding of the slide about a quarter inch before full retraction. Could this be where the slide hits the disconnector or the hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Way to go Bruce. Mike, had you mentioned that it was a ramped barrel gun? I forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Barrel and slide interior sandblasted, causing drag during unlocking... I'm happy for your success. But, I wonder why anyone would bead blast the *interior* of anything. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Barrel and slide interior sandblasted, causing drag during unlocking... I'm happy for your success. But, I wonder why anyone would bead blast the *interior* of anything. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. To hide the gouge marks from careless machining? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Stress relief? Keeps cracks from starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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