Fast or Accurate

[Duane Thomas]

You can't miss fast enough to win in IDPA.

Well, actually, depending on the level of the competition, you can. I say that as someone who's done it on numerous occasions.

Legendary Border Patrolman Bill Jordan once noted " Speed is great but accuracy is final".

Speed may be fine and accuracy final, but those aren't our only two choices. Obviously we can be:

(1) Fast and inaccurate.

(2) Slow and accurate.

But we actually have two additional choices:

(3) Slow and inaccurate.

(4) Fast and accurate.

Obviously, of all our choices, (4) is the best.

[lugnut]

Let's not forget that in IDPA the scoring is as simple as can be! It's easy to review your raw times and points down relative to other shooters at matches.

If I shoot a stage in 20 secs and go down 2 points it's simply 21 secs.

If I ratchet up things and shoot the stage in 17 sec and drop 6 points- I'm still better off for a total of 20sec. While getting three times as many points down!

In most stages, although I'd like all good shots, I'll take a few extra points down if I can reduce the raw time a bit. What does that mean? Well it means that I'm willing to take some shot with a marginal sight picture. What I won't ever do it risk a down 3 or a HNT- those will just destroy a score!!

[MTBfarms]

Accurate.

Points down kill your score. You have to shoot zeros to win anything in IDPA. Fast is always fun and will come with ease in time.

[Duane Thomas]

What I won't ever do it risk a down 3 or a HNT

"HNT"?

[Paul Burtchell]

What I won't ever do it risk a down 3 or a HNT

"HNT"?

Hit a non-threat

[Duane Thomas]

You have to shoot zeros to win anything in IDPA.

Well, you have to shoot primarily -0s, to be sure. Just don't be so terrified of dropping the occasional point that it severly impacts your speed. That's a sucker move on SO many levels.

[Duane Thomas]

Hit a non-threat

Ah. I'd never heard or read that one before.

[Paul Santiago]

In my experience - and I'll be the first to admit that someone else (anyone?) may have a different experience - shooting accurately at a deliberate pace doesn't transition over to being accurate at speed.

That has been my experience also.

For 45 yrs my goal was to put all of my shots through the same hole as my first. THAT has been the hardest thing for me to overcome to build up speed. A-zone is much larger than an X.

[jmorris]

Points down kill your score. You have to shoot zeros to win anything in IDPA.

Simply not true. At nationals Thursday I shot 65 more points down along with two additional FTN’s than the shooter that finished 1.01 seconds behind me. I just completed the stages 43.51 seconds faster.

I go through phases of greater speed vs. greater accuracy and it’s always better to be at a match when they are balanced.

[gb32]

As someone who has shot IDPA since 2002 and USPSA since 2005, I'll make a couple of observations based on my experience:

1. Speed/time doesnt just apply to shooting. The faster/more efficient you perform everything else (draw, reloads, movement etc) the more time you have to shoot better points.

2. I had a stretch where I was low points down at about 4 sanctioned matches in a row. Net result= zero titles. Worked on my game and started averaging 1.5 pts down per stage= 5 state titles and 1 regional.

You can only shoot a stage so accurately but you can always shoot it faster.

[Chris Christian]

Any shooter of even minimal skill can " bone" a match and be the "Most Accurate" shooter. You just have to slow down to a snail's pace and accept the fact that the only chance you have to win anything is "Most Accurate", because your time will be in the Sun Dial range. Shooters who are trying to score well in terms of both speed and time = final score need to learn when they can burn and when they have to make accurate shots. Shooting 1s quickly won't hurt you. Add a Hard Cover hit that you don't see and don't pick up because you're running too fast, or a Mike on a tight head shot, and you're starting to get behind the curve. Get a bit too fast and nail a Non-Threat, or get a FTN, and your World can start to suck. That's especially true if you are shooting a Sanctioned Match against upper level competition. In that respect, you really can't miss fast enough to win if your misses result in five second FTNs or NTs, or even 2.5 second Mikes. Those are bad.

Duane noted that he has missed fast enough to win on a number of occasions. That can certainly happen at a small club match when a MA is competing against maybe one or two SSs and a double handful of Marksmen and Novices. BTDT, and with SSR. Have won a handful of small club matches with a revolver.

He also noted that when the competition gets a bit more serious you have to hit more 0s. That's been my experience at Sanctioned Matches. The level of competition does play a role as to how fast & inaccurately you can shoot and still win. But, when you decide to play with the Big Boys, you can't NT, FTN, Mike and generally "miss" fast enough to win. Larry Vickers created a simple and effective scoring system (speaking of IDPA only) that rewards both speed and accuracy.... yet penalizes a shooter who endeavors to achieve just one of those two aspects. The shooters who take home the trophies have figured out when to "run" and when to buckle down and make the required hits. Those who wish to maximize their score on a particular COF would benefit from taking that into account.

Chris Christian

[Duane Thomas]

Several years ago there was a thread on this board where a member asked the question, "What separates the very best shooters from eveyone else, even those who have, technically speaking, equivalent skill levels, who work just as hard to improve?" No one had a good answer. There were a few ideas put forth like "drive" or maybe innately great hand/eye coordination but that was it.

I mentioned that to Bruce Gray, and his immediate response was, "A superior ability to turn the shooting over the the subconscious mind. And then stay there. A lot of people can put themselves into the zone, but the instant they hit anything they perceive as especially difficult, whether it's cutting a tight no-shoot, or a distance shot, whatever, they figure they need to focus on that. And then they're back in their conscious mind. And they fall apart."

Please understand, I'm not trying to be snotty or dismissive here, and I mean that sincerely, I'm just saying that if you want to guarantee you're going to screw up, be going along fast and smooth, then suddenly decide you need "to buckle down and get the hits".

[Chris Christian]

I have to respectfully disagree with the contention that if you want to guarantee a screw up just slow your consistent fast & smooth rhythm a beat to make a tough hit. I've seen some of the top IDPA shooters (JM, Sevigny, Vogal, Warren, etc.) tank a stage when they stayed in a fast rhythm on tight shots. Five seconds for a NT or FTN is tough to recover from if you want to win. Upper level shooters can make any shot on demand.... but they've learned (I'm speaking only of IDPA... USPSA scoring system is different) that some take just a touch more time than others. Most will look at a COF and determine the traps & minefields well before the buzzer goes off, and set their rhythm/shot plan accordingly. The sub-conscious mind is a wonderful thing and being in the Zone is great... but COFs differ. Some require a different strategy than others. A one size fits all approach doesn't always work in IDPA. Sometime you have to think, and adjust. Risk/reward is very much alive in IDPA. FTNs, NT, as well as 3s & 5s add up quickly if you let them. Most shooters realize after the fact that the fraction of a second longer it would have taken them to make the shot and avoid the penalties would have been time well spent.

Chris Christian

[Duane Thomas]

May it be that even the best are not able to stay in the subconscious mind all the time? I have noticed over the years that possibly the toughest mental challenge in "combat" pistol competition is what I call "changeup stages". IOW a stage where you start out with close range, open, blast 'em targets, then in the middle of the stage a more accuracy intensive problem, then more blast 'em targets at the end. Since many people can get into the zone, i.e. shoot from the subconscious mind, for the first part of the stage, but then can't stay there for the middle part, and can't get there again afterward for the last part, this tends to really screw with their mental game. What happens is they do great on the first part, fall apart in the middle, and then continue falling apart at the end - even though the shooting problem at the end is no more difficult than what they had to do at the beginning. It requires a great, great shooter who's really on their game to rock on a changeup stage, not because the shooting problems themselves, taken as individual tasks, are particularly challenging, but because the order in which they occur, the mental changeups required, can be so jarring.

[Flyin40]

I have to respectfully disagree with the contention that if you want to guarantee a screw up just slow your consistent fast & smooth rhythm a beat to make a tough hit. I've seen some of the top IDPA shooters (JM, Sevigny, Vogal, Warren, etc.) tank a stage when they stayed in a fast rhythm on tight shots. Five seconds for a NT or FTN is tough to recover from if you want to win. Upper level shooters can make any shot on demand.... but they've learned (I'm speaking only of IDPA... USPSA scoring system is different) that some take just a touch more time than others. Most will look at a COF and determine the traps & minefields well before the buzzer goes off, and set their rhythm/shot plan accordingly. The sub-conscious mind is a wonderful thing and being in the Zone is great... but COFs differ. Some require a different strategy than others. A one size fits all approach doesn't always work in IDPA. Sometime you have to think, and adjust. Risk/reward is very much alive in IDPA. FTNs, NT, as well as 3s & 5s add up quickly if you let them. Most shooters realize after the fact that the fraction of a second longer it would have taken them to make the shot and avoid the penalties would have been time well spent.

Chris Christian

A screwup doesn't have to be a bobbled reload, NT or FTN. A huge screwup can be nothing more than letting your conscious mind guide you. While you're thinking about what to do it is costing time and that alone is not good. Any of those top guys you mentioned gets behind on a stage by 2 or 3 seconds......that's huge. Sometimes that's a screwup and sometimes it's not. It may just be that is the best they could shoot the stage.

Those top guys don't have a rhythm at all, they break the shot when they have a sight picture and that's all they do. They screw up just as everyone else does but if you think for one minute they aren't shooting with their subconscious minds.......all you have to do is ask them and they will tell you.

Do this.......start a poll and you'll find your answer very quickly. Conscious mind can never go faster than the subconscious because the conscious mind can only do one thing at a time. If you're telling yourself, shoot and A/-0, shoot an A/-0, shoot an A/-0, then everything else will slow up.

Great post Duane.

Flyin

Edited September 28, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[Loves2Shoot]

What I won't ever do it risk a down 3 or a HNT- those will just destroy a score!!

I recently won a stage at a state match with a down 5, but I shot it fast and people who would have waited to make sure they had both hits on that target were much slower than the 2.5 seconds it cost me to let the shot go.

IDPA does put a HUGE value on the down 0, but if you aren't willing to push the edge, you will lose a lot of time (more than the 1.5 seconds from an occasional down 3) you won't rise to the top. That is the main thing I see with shooters won ONLY shoot IDPA. They have an unreasonable fear of dropping any points. That being said I try not to drop points, but not so much that I go into "safe" mode. I could drop only a handful of points every match, but it wouldn't serve me well. I'm always going to drop less, but If you lose time on every shot you take, that will cost more than on the occasional bad shot.

If you are not accurate, it doesn't matter how fast you are and if you aren't fast, it doesn't matter how accurate you are, you will stay in the middle of the pack.

The whole question being asked doesn't make sense to me. If you have a race car and you take away the tires, it doesn't matter how powerful the engine is and the other way around also. You will be limited by your your speed or your accuracy, which ever is worse is what limits you.

[Duane Thomas]

Great post Duane.

Thanks.

[Duane Thomas]

It has struck me that many people, even those who intellectually understand the advantages of the subconscious mind, when you get right down to it, on a basic level, hate and distrust it. These tend to be people (no offense because I'm one of them) who have a certain control freak aspect to their personality. While we may "know" that the subconscious mind is more capable than the conscious mind, still there is this tendency to think that anything really difficult, or anything that requires really fine motor control, like for instance cutting a tight no-shoot, MUST be done by the conscious mind. Because turning the shooting over to the subconscious mind is frightening. It seems like being out of control because "we" - or what we perceive to be "we", our conscious mind - is not there, or at least it feels that way.

We don't understand that the subconscious mind is "us", it's just the part of us that can multi-task, can perform at a much higher level, and much faster, than the conscious mind.

Once you get used to the level of performance the subconscious mind can give you, it's hard to want anything else. Still the tendency to overthink, or think when it's not appropriate, is something against which I struggle. When I can get out of my own way and just shoot, that's when it all comes together, when I feel the best about the shooting, when I feel the best, physically and mentally in fact. The zone is a very pleasant place to be. You'd think I'd eventually totally clue in and stay there all the time while shooting.

[JB38Super]

Even though I read frequently, I rarely reply to the various opinions listed here. Further, I think I disagree with Duane more than agree.

But this time, this topic all hits home. And Duane is right on track. If you are comparing speed to accuracy, you have already lost sight of the big picture. You are making a mental decision to switch between the conscious effort of "shooting accurately" and the speed method of letting the body carry the gun quickly from position to position and lettting the subconscious take over the shooting portion.

You have to train with methods (ie, speed drills) to allow your self to trust the subconscious (read muscle memory or whatever) and let your mechanics (reloads, draws, movement) to take yourself smoothly and efficiently through the course, regardless if it is A's or -0.

Jim

[CDPMatt]

If you're shooting all 0's you're probably going too slow

[Duane Thomas]

I'm familiar with the joke but, all joking aside, to me this is just another expression of the either/or mentality re speed and accuracy. And it's not necessarily true. The fact that you are firing all -0s does not necessarily mean you're going too slow. You may being going fast and just be really good.

[lugnut]

I used to ski a lot when I was in college. Some of my friends would measure their "performance" based on how few times they fell down. Even back then I used to laugh at them. I would always say that if you don't fall down once in a while- you aren't pushing yourself. Same applies here. Too slow and accurate is NOT the goal IMO. When shooting to win you are going to make "some" mistakes"... even when the subconscious is in full control.

[Chris Christian]

I understand the “either/or” argument and to a large extent I agree with it. But, from the perspective of winning a stage I think there are times when things become situational and a bit of conscious thought helps. If you watch three MA/EXs shoot a COF and blister it... yet all tag a NT on a tight shot... do you want to play follow the leader? Or, would you say “That’s a landmine I’m not going to step on”. If you slow a beat to make that shot... even if you shoot the stage a couple seconds slower than they did... they have the 5 second penalty and you don’t. Risk/reward. You win. As far as sub-conscious thought goes it’s great for running the gun.... but does it tell you that maybe in this Vickers COF you should put three rounds onto a target instead of just two, because the target is tight and popping that third shot gives you a better hit chance and a better reload point? Or maybe a RWR would be a help here in terms of overall time, instead of just shooting to slide lock and having to bring the gun off target to reload and re-engage? I understand letting the sub-conscious run the gun... but when it comes to planning a stage a bit of conscious thought can be an asset. There are times when the fastest shooter doesn’t win HOA... but the smartest shooter does. That was the gist of my responses to the shooter who asked how to improve his stage times. I think it was misunderstood to mean shoot all 0s. Somehow Zen got mixed in with stage planning.

Chris Christian

[sigfla]

Whatever happened to the shoot as fast as you can see concept? I used to go slow and try to be accurate. My scores suffered b/c of it. Once I let go like Duane mentioned and shot "accurate enough" to hit what I was looking at my scores and time went down. Eventually my accuracy got better but it never got any worst. You can turn up the speedo as fast as you want. If you wanna win the match then yes you have to be fast and accurate. If you wanna place well in your division you need to shoot as fast and as accurately as you can see your front sight.

My first training session with a teacher he told me "Sam you are pretty damn accurate with that gun, now speed up and forget about punching 1 hole groups. That down zero area is pretty big."

[Duane Thomas]

If you watch three MA/EXs shoot a COF and blister it... yet all tag a NT on a tight shot... do you want to play follow the leader? Or, would you say “That’s a landmine I’m not going to step on”. If you slow a beat to make that shot... even if you shoot the stage a couple seconds slower than they did... they have the 5 second penalty and you don’t. Risk/reward. You win.

Depends. Is my skill level great enough that I can shoot as fast, or faster, than them and not miss? If yes, then I have to go for it.

As far as sub-conscious thought goes it’s great for running the gun.... but does it tell you that maybe in this Vickers COF you should put three rounds onto a target instead of just two, because the target is tight and popping that third shot gives you a better hit chance and a better reload point?

I would never, ever, ever deliberately "pop a third shot to give myself a better reload point." Round dumping is cheating. As to the other, I see shooters all the time firing extra shots on target "just to make sure I get the points." This is indicative of someone who is not reading their sights. If we're reading our sights, we don't need to fire extra shots to increase the chances of having good hits. We already know we have good hits, yes?

Or maybe a RWR would be a help here in terms of overall time, instead of just shooting to slide lock and having to bring the gun off target to reload and re-engage?

This comes under the category of pre-stage planning and visualization. You pre-program things like that into your game plan specifically so, when the timer goes off, you don't have to consciously think about them. You have created a little video clip in your mind of what you need to do, then you just relax and let the tape unwind as you go through the stage.

That was the gist of my responses to the shooter who asked how to improve his stage times. I think it was misunderstood to mean shoot all 0s. Somehow Zen got mixed in with stage planning.

That's because training yourself to shoot from the subconscious mind is such an important part of improving your stage times, and preparing yourself through visualization so that when the buzzer goes off you can execute from the subconscious mind is such an important part of stage planning.