2009 NRA Action Pistol Committee Meeting

[mpolans]

I think the point he was trying to make is that, whether it is heavy or not it is different. A shooter is much more likely to crossover if the equipment he's already using will still be legal. Won't be ideal, but at least they can try the sport out and see if they like it before sending Nowlin a huge chunk of money for a AP pistol. I have a bunch of guns now that would be legal for Metallic or Open, but they all have 1 1/2 - 2 lb triggers in them. I'm not about to go tweaking my guns just to shoot one match a month or less. I probably would just shoot Production with my 34 if I hadn't won an STI that I'm going to set up for Metallic.

You're right that no one likes rule changes. But, lots of folks also don't seem to like the 2lb limit, both current shooters and people considering shooting AP. The NRA has made a ton of progress in the last 10 years or so with opening their minds, both in competition and LE training. I'd hate to see any regression of that. I just have a hard time with the logic of a 2 lb trigger being safe but a 1 1/2 pound trigger not. Sorry, but I get my back up when someone tries to legislate safety on me. If someone is going to AD, they're going to do it with a 2lb trigger or a 5lb trigger.

Yep, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I should've said "relatively heavy." Sure, 2lbs is light, but folks who spent $100-200 on a trigger job aren't about to try to increase it to shoot one match a year (maybe 2-3 if they're near one of the very few clubs shooting AP).

Regardless, it's not just the 2lb minimum for all guns, it's also the minimum 3.5lb trigger pull weight for every shot in Production. This rule keeps a lot of folks who are shooting IPSC and USPSA Production from competing. Many DA/SA revolvers don't meet the minimum weight when shooting single action . . . and while I've heard revolvers were allowed to deactivate their single action capability in order to meet this rule, I think it's kind of funny that one has to fundamentally alter the function of their firearm (removing single action capability) in order to shoot in "Production."

FWIW, I have shot the Bianchi Cup, more than once, but with an Open gun. I just recognize that the best way for the Bianchi Cup to survive and thrive is to increase the number of shooters, and that the most likely pool to draw them from are existing USPSA, IPSC, and IDPA shooters who are looking to use their existing guns and gear to try another competition discipline. I think it's worth looking at more successful shooting disciplines like USPSA and IDPA and seeing what they're doing and catering to their shooters, as they are the most likely market for the Bianchi Cup. Sure, the last couple years, the Bianchi Cup, a single annual event, has shown an increase in attendance. However, Action Pistol as a shooting discipline outside of that single annual event is dead. Sure, there are the occasional matches at Chambersburg, PA or southwest VA. But even then, I bet it's really rare for them to shoot anything but the four stages that comprise the Bianchi Cup (Practical, Mover, Barricade, and Plates). To put things in perspective, a state or regional NRA Action Pistol match in the mid-Atlantic area will probably draw 15-40 competitors. A USPSA *local* match in the same area will likely draw 40-80 competitors; regional and state matches will often draw upwards of 100. IDPA matches in the same area tend to be a little smaller than USPSA matches, but not much. I'm sure the proportions of NRA Action Pistol to USPSA/IDPA are similar in other regions. Such a large pool of potential Action Pistol shooters should not be dismissed or discouraged by rules that render their existing guns either illegal or uncompetitive, particularly when the modification of such rules would have little to no negative impact on the few existing Action Pistol shooters.

If we were talking about rule changes that would render a large number of existing competitors' guns illegal, I would understand the hesitation...but this is not the case. All it would take is three changes:

1. Change the Production Rules (including trigger pull requirements) to be very closely aligned with USPSA Production and IDPA SSP (they're already very similar).

2. Ditch the 2lb minimum trigger pull for open guns.

3. Amend the rules to allow for the disabling of a grip safety on 1911 style firearms.

And if anyone wants to argue it's a liability issue for NRA, think of it this way; if you were the NRA, would you rather:

A. Have NRA make a determination of what constitutes a safe firearm, thus placing the responsibility on NRA;

B. Simply write a rule saying that competitors are responsible for ensuring their gun is in safe working order, thus placing the responsibility on the competitor.

[Alan550]

There are some valid complaints in the posts here, but I would like to disagree with some of the points as well.

First, the 2# trigger pull rule isn't popular with anyone I know of and was sent to the NRA Rules committee under protests from even some of the AP Rules committee members at the time. It was the idea of, and promoted by, one man on the AP committee. The pinned grip safety rule went along with the same line of thought and wasn't popular either. I remember seeing an interview with Michael Voigt after the rule changes that were supposed to bring in the IPSC/USPSA shooters under the "Open Modified" class. He said, and I'll paraphrase here, that those shooters would not modify their Open guns to shoot one match in a year. He was right, in that the Open Modified class died from lack of participation/interest.

As for the opinion that "Action Pistol as a shooting discipline outside of that single annual event is dead", I choose to disagree vehemently! mpolans mentioned Chambersburg, PA and southwest Va, but in the last 4-5 years, C'burg PA, Cumberland MD, and Charlotte NC have been added to the venues just in the Mid-Atlantic area that shoot AP. That's 3 new clubs plus the ones who shoot AP that don't get their matches "Approved" through the NRA! Just because there's no listing in Shooting Sports USA for some areas doesn't mean there's not an AP shoot going on there. Some clubs don't want to have to send NRA the money that they require in order to have "Approved" matches, so they run AP without NRA sanction.

In Bedford, VA where I'm located, we started running AP matches about 6-7 years ago with the help of an NRA grant and though we may not have the participation that mpolans mentioned for the other action sports, there will be 5 shooters from here going to Bianchi next year, 4 of whom had never shot an AP match before doing so at our facility. And 2 of those shooters just recently got their names in the NRA Record books. Say what you will, but AP is NOT DEAD on the local level. Also, there has been a surge in the number of shooters from the northern VA area, thanks mainly to Martin Johnson (Allgoodhits) promoting it to new shooters. Some of those from that area also have set and are setting new NRA records in the last couple of years, some as recently as the last month, and they are NEW TO THE SPORT!

As for the trigger modification on revolvers that was mentioned, it's not required, just a desired change for some shooters. You can still buy a stock S&W 686, an Uncle Mike's holster and shoot the Cup with that gun "as is". Production Division is still a work in progress, and that's what the OP was all about.......requesting input for the AP Rules Committee. They're trying to keep it as simple as possible with the rules they have so far re holsters and trigger pull requirements. To have to make a list of "approved" holsters would be a nightmare, as new designs are being introduced literally every day.

So as I bring this to a close, I'm against the 2# rule and the pinned grip safety rule, but all for the addition of Production as it stands right now with whatever modifications the committee can bring to the table to help raise awareness and participation in this great sport. Some venues are having to limit the number of shooters already due to more shooters showing up and shooting Production. That's a very good sign that we're not dying as a sport!!

The NRA doesn't promote AP as it should. You can go to the range at NRA headquarters and shoot IDPA, USPSA, CAS, Bullseye and any number of events, but NOT AP! Why is that, I wonder? There are rules to cover indoor AP events but at headquarters, there is no AP!

'Nuff said! (Whew!)

Alan~^~

Edited September 27, 2009 by Alan550

[Allgoodhits]

Just a few years ago there were no trigger pull weight rule, and there were no such rule stating that "all safeties as installed" had to work. In fact, the barrel length rules for then Stock guns, included 8 3/8" revos as an example. Based on this. I would like to ask the following:

Where were all the "promised" IPSC and IDPA shooters then?

As I recall, then BC coordinator Russ Stott also made a change that you had to shoot the match standing up. It was told to me that this was in part due to the promise that many would come if he put the match on one's feet. I never quite understood this, as I guess going prone required too much "action" for the "real action shooters" because not only did we not attract many new shooters, we also lost some.

So perhaps we need to make a list of all the excuses people have for not shooting NRA Action Pistol, or BC. On the other hand it doesn't matter. Are the shooting sports a victim of our current culture? By this I mean, many gun age persons today grew up with schools that didn't give grades, sports where no score was kept and other forms of redistribution. Not all shooting sports are for everyone, just as not all running sports are for everyone, and not all "ball" sports are for everyone. This however, does not dilute the sport(s) for those who like their sport or shooting game. The NRA has been around since 1871, and started as I recall for the benifit or promotion of shooting contests. They must be doing something right. The Bianchi Cup has been around since 1979, and it also must be doing something right too.

For those of you who would shoot the CUP or other NRA AP matches, but .................. . I would suggest that you get in touch with Alan550, Action Pistolero, Allgoodhits or a number of others on this forum and provide your reason for not shooting. If your reason is equipment related, then we may just be able to provide you with whatever you need to give it an honest, no more excuses try.

My favorite excuse is from the constant poster(s) who say on this NRA-BIANCHI CUP section of Brian's Forum that they don't know where any matches are? Hmm, they are on this FORUM, reading these posts, where over and over other posters are providing the list and contact persons, yet they still have the same excuse, over and over.

On the other hand, some good reasons for not shooting NRA AP may be....

I just don't have the time.

I know where there are matches, but unwilling to go that far to shoot them.

I can't find a shooting buddy, who also wants to try it.

Don't have the money to get into "yet another" shooting discipline.

I Like shooting at 15 yds or less only.

My gun isn't relaible enough, i.e. it jams too often.

My sponsor dropped me, and I only shoot if someone else pays for it.

I can't find components to reload with, or they are too expensive!

.. and there are many, many others.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[kimmbeckwith]

Martin you hit the nail on the head!!!!

I remeber shooting the plates standing, no prone execpt for the 25 & 50 on the practical and we didn't see hardley any crossover to any extent.

The Bianchi Cup is so unique! You CAN NOT SCREW UP and still place!!!! This is similar to shooting Registered Trap, you can't miss!! And with the CUP the 10 ring and in most cases in High Master the X! It's about perfection and speed not just one or the other.

I think alot of other shooting disicplines see this as intimidating or they would have been at Columbia starting way back. I crossed over from PPC and never shot a mover until I stood on that concrete pad at THE CUP in 1985! So until they decide to TAKE THE LEAP!! , like some of us that have been there a few years! ( I guess they aren't up to the challenge!) We won't see the numbers from other shooting sports.

Come on guys, quite making up excuses not to come and show UP!!!!

Been there since 1985!

[Action Pistolero]

Kim,

Speaking of excuses, will I see you in Bates City on Sat?

[kimmbeckwith]

Kim,

Speaking of excuses, will I see you in Bates City on Sat?

Kevin: Can you forward me a program by e-mail at kimmbeckwith@cox.net. I didn't receive one, we have season ticket for the Chiefs, on Sunday, so I will be in KC anyway. Haven't shot much at Hutch our club doesn't do action pistol anymore they went to IDPA.

But sure, I'll hit the range hard this week!!!!

[kimmbeckwith]

Thanks again for the Invite Kevin, I had a good time!!!

Kim

Edited October 5, 2009 by kimmbeckwith

[kimmbeckwith]

Thanks again for thei Invite Kevin, I had a good time!!!

Kim

[Action Pistolero]

Kim,

Glad you could make it. As usual, Mike and his boys did a hell of a job.

At least the wind died down and the temperatures were nice. Now if we could get back those late shots that you and I did the weekend would have been perfect.

Alan and I shot in Hutch on Sunday and I fired the exact same score that Chuck did. Even the x count was the same. That's the second time that's happened. When I lost to Chuck in 2007 I shot his same score the next day.

Good to see you again and we'll see you in the spring.

Kevin

[Allgoodhits]

Committee?

Tom,

Other than Super Senior, what's on the Agenda for upcoming meetings?

MJ

[NRAActionPistol]

Committee?

Tom,

Other than Super Senior, what's on the Agenda for upcoming meetings?

MJ

Martin,

Here ya go! Meeting is today 2 PM EST.

Tom...

AGENDA

NRA Action Shooting Committee

Fairfax, Virginia 7 October 2009

Responsibility: Policies and rules for the conduct of action shooting programs with the objective of stimulating interest and participation among NRA members and the general public. Policy level supervision of the NRA Bianchi Cup competition and the NRA Action Shooting World Cup Competition.

1. Call to Order.

2. Roll Call.

3. Old Business: Approve Minutes of Previous Meetings

4. New Business:

a. Adopt new agenda items.

b. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – John Sanders RE: Grand Senior Category

c. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – Andy Rayland RE: Grand Senior Category & others.

d. Review and discuss letter dated 5 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Committee Member & Competitor – Jeff Rowe RE: Barricade Event AP Rule 7.7

e. Review and amend rule 3.2.1 Production Firearm as Necessary (USPSA Production Rules enclosed)

f. Review and discuss letter dated 29 July 2009 from Australian Action Pistol Competitor – David Duprez RE: Classification

g. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – Martin Johnson RE: AP Rule 3.2, 3.2.1 & 3.1.7

h. Review and discuss letter from Action Pistol Competitor – David Surgi & Martin Johnson RE: 22 Rimfire & Long Rifle AP Rule 3.1.1 & 3.2.2

[Allgoodhits]

Committee?

Tom,

Other than Super Senior, what's on the Agenda for upcoming meetings?

MJ

Martin,

Here ya go! Meeting is today 2 PM EST.

Tom...

AGENDA

NRA Action Shooting Committee

Fairfax, Virginia 7 October 2009

Responsibility: Policies and rules for the conduct of action shooting programs with the objective of stimulating interest and participation among NRA members and the general public. Policy level supervision of the NRA Bianchi Cup competition and the NRA Action Shooting World Cup Competition.

1. Call to Order.

2. Roll Call.

3. Old Business: Approve Minutes of Previous Meetings

4. New Business:

a. Adopt new agenda items.

b. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – John Sanders RE: Grand Senior Category

c. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – Andy Rayland RE: Grand Senior Category & others.

d. Review and discuss letter dated 5 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Committee Member & Competitor – Jeff Rowe RE: Barricade Event AP Rule 7.7

e. Review and amend rule 3.2.1 Production Firearm as Necessary (USPSA Production Rules enclosed)

f. Review and discuss letter dated 29 July 2009 from Australian Action Pistol Competitor – David Duprez RE: Classification

g. Review and discuss letter dated 3 Aug 2009 from Action Pistol Competitor – Martin Johnson RE: AP Rule 3.2, 3.2.1 & 3.1.7

h. Review and discuss letter from Action Pistol Competitor – David Surgi & Martin Johnson RE: 22 Rimfire & Long Rifle AP Rule 3.1.1 & 3.2.2

Thanks Tom.

The ROLL CALL will be of interest. It is my understanding that elected Directors serve on committees, and as a voting member of NRA, I would like to know which Directors want to be Directors, but are too busy to Direct.

Martin

NRA Benefactor Member

[Chuck Anderson]

Any chance the Production discussion would include a two-tiered approach to the trigger pull rule? i.e 3.5 for all shots on DAO or Striker fired guns, and 2lb for SA shots on DA/SA guns (first shot must be DA). This would put DA/SA and Striker guns on a fairly even playing field. Striker fired wouldn't have to deal with the first DA shot and the DA guys would have a lighter pull after the first. Might make it easier for more guns to play. I know I have a lot of DA/SA guns and Revolvers that wouldn't meet the 3.5 lb rule in SA.

[Allgoodhits]

Any chance the Production discussion would include a two-tiered approach to the trigger pull rule? i.e 3.5 for all shots on DAO or Striker fired guns, and 2lb for SA shots on DA/SA guns (first shot must be DA). This would put DA/SA and Striker guns on a fairly even playing field. Striker fired wouldn't have to deal with the first DA shot and the DA guys would have a lighter pull after the first. Might make it easier for more guns to play. I know I have a lot of DA/SA guns and Revolvers that wouldn't meet the 3.5 lb rule in SA.

Chuck, that is a good approach, and just may be worthy of a compromise solution. Heck add single action onlys to the list with a 3.5 or 4 lb minimum too.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[NRAActionPistol]

All,

Committee meeting went well, the Minutes can not be released until they are approved by the Chairman, but we can tell you that the Committee did approve Agenda Item a) Grand Senior Category. It will have to be approved by the Board of Directors in January, but we think it will be approved to be consistent with the other NRA disciplines.

I am off to NC for a family function, I will be back in town on Tuesday.

Tom...

[Jadeslade]

[shoot]

I would love to shoot BC but as long as they have the grip safety rules it seems they don't want shooters.

OPEN is open ...

Let people compete with the guns they use and will use the next weekend and the next etc in Steel/USPSA/IDPA or whatever. How many safeties are enough on a 2011 and when does the rule become ridiculous.

Edited October 26, 2009 by shoot

[goldfieldshooter]

When will we mere mortals learn the outcome of the meetimg Tom?

Coatesy

[alfsauve]

As someone who just started to investigate NRA AP, I got a real workout of my Lipitor trying to navigate the NRA web site and maybe the sport. (But gosh by golly, if I wanted to know how to be "Distingished" that's clearly spelled out.) I did find the rule book, so please don't email me that link.

According to the NRA web site:

You can still register for the 2009 Bianchi, (held 6 months ago)

There is NO 2010 match scheduled.

There are NO local matches.

BUT, having found this thread, I see that, there indeed might be hope of a next year (though it appears there's no hope for the NRA web site.)

The quetion is where around Atlanta, GA are there shoots? Middle TN? Northwestern SC? NorthEastern AL? (Charlotte's a little far for a day trip, but looks like a nice program.)

Alf

Edited November 5, 2009 by alfsauve

[NRAActionPistol]

When will we mere mortals learn the outcome of the meetimg Tom?

Coatesy

Coatesy,

Here ya go, not much changed, with only 6 people showing up at the committee meeting in Columbia, and most everyone is happy with the rules, the committee decided not to change the current rules, and to let the Production Division rules as they are for a full year to see it grow.

The 2nd agenda item was discussed: The committee discussed this item in detail. The committee agreed in order to keep in line with the NRA Pistol Rule Book, a Grand Senior Category should added to NRA Action Pistol Rule 2.2.2.

The 5th agenda item was discussed: The committee discussed in detail. To make it clear and as fair as possible the committee recommends that Action Pistol Rule 3.2.1. Be amended to read - Production Firearm - Holsters must be for carry and every day use. Competition, Race Type and Open Front Holsters are Prohibited.

Sorry for the delay, I have been and continue to be swamped.

Best always,

Tom...

[goldfieldshooter]

Many Thanks Tom

Better slow than no.

Coatesy

[Allgoodhits]

I would love to shoot BC but as long as they have the grip safety rules it seems they don't want shooters.

OPEN is open ...

Let people compete with the guns they use and will use the next weekend and the next etc in Steel/USPSA/IDPA or whatever. How many safeties are enough on a 2011 and when does the rule become ridiculous.

NRA started running competitions in the 19th century, BC started in 1979. We veteran BC shooters would love to have you come out and try it. To prove our love for the sport, we will help put a gun in your hand that complies with NRA rules. Just contact someone off line, we'll help you out, and any others.

If a grip safety issue is the only impediment to your "love" to shoot BC, then ....well whatever. By the way from what "manufacturer" did you buy the gun with the deactivated grip safety? All new automobiles sold in the US have seat belts. Helmets and fire suits not required. AA Fuel dragsters running 300+ mph putting out 500+ HP from each cylinder are about as "open as open" can ever be require not just seat belts, but harness, helmet and fire suit. Those guys prove their love for their sport by complying with those rules required to play the game. I wonder why NHRA, NASCAR, IRL and such require those safety protocols? Oh yeah, SAFETY!

Bring a gun, borrow a gun, show up and we'll help put a gun in your hands beacuse if you 'love" something enough you'll overcome the minor obstacle which is in your way, correct?

MJ

[JFlowers]

One of our biggest roadblocks to growing any specific shooting sport is all the other shooting sports. We talk about "cross-overs" and "attracting shooters from other sports", but lets be realistic. There is only so many hours, dollars, weekends, rounds of ammo, tolerance from wife available.

Take Charlotte, NC for example. On any given weekend, there is a SASS, a USPSA, and an IDPA match at one of the local (less than 1 hour drive) ranges and basically each weekend just shifts what discipline is at what range. Plus there are 2, maybe 3 monthly AP style matches, a couple of Steel Challenge matches, and at least one outlaw falling steel match. And if you go to 90 minute drives, you add at least 5 more sanctioned matches to the monthly mix.

Don't get me wrong, the amount and variety of shooting available is wonderful. But when you decide to shoot discipline A, you really leave yourself no time to shoot anything else. I know that other places are not as lucky and multi-discipline shooting is the only way to shoot more.

Basically what I am trying to say is at some point we saturate the market of shooters. So growth needs to come in the form of new shooters. I think all the disciplines are doing a good job there with building a place for the popular polymer SA/DA and DAO out of the box guns to compete.

[Allgoodhits]

JFlowers, I think you are right on with your comments. I would add that the difficulty in getting components and ammo as contributed significantly to the burden on the shooters.

From what I recall most IDPA and USPSA matches are less than 100 rds, except for the larger ones, whereas PPC is a minimum 150 rds for one gun, NRA AP is typically at least 192 rds and BE is 270 rds. Thus it becomes less difficult to acquire the ammo to shoot IDPA and USPSA.

To these complications add the need for plates, a mover and a venue which can accommodate two events which require greater than 25 yds ( Practical 50 yds & Barricade 35yds ) and it is a wonder that NRA AP does as well as it does all things considered.

MJ

Edited November 22, 2009 by Allgoodhits

[mpolans]

JFlowers, I think you are right on with your comments. I would add that the difficulty in getting components and ammo as contributed significantly to the burden on the shooters.

From what I recall most IDPA and USPSA matches are less than 100 rds, except for the larger ones, whereas PPC is a minimum 150 rds for one gun, NRA AP is typically at least 192 rds and BE is 270 rds. Thus it becomes less difficult to acquire the ammo to shoot IDPA and USPSA.

To these complications add the need for plates, a mover and a venue which can accommodate two events which require greater than 25 yds ( Practical 50 yds & Barricade 35yds ) and it is a wonder that NRA AP does as well as it does all things considered.

MJ

NRA Action Pistol doesn't require a mover or plates . . . only shooting the events in the Bianchi Cup require them. The fact that most consider the latter as the definition for the former is probably one of the reasons why NRA Action Pistol is virtually dead at the local level.