NRA TPC LE 3-Gun Competition

[Chuck Anderson]

Tri-County Gun Club is hosting an NRA Tactical Police Competition on August 29, 2009. This match is for Law Enforcement, Private LE and Military only(retired folks are welcome as well). These matches are new to the NRA and are a good way to get some LE folks involved with 3 Gun and competition. This match is set up for duty guns and duty gear. If you are interested in shooting the match, but don't have a rifle or shotgun, there will be some available to use. You just need to provide your own ammo. Applications for the match are up on the NRA LEAD site, http://www.nrahq.org/law/competitions/tpc/20090829.pdf This is a prize table match with several thousand dollars in prizes donated by our sponsors.

Information about NRA TPC matches can be found at http://www.nrahq.org/law/competitions/tpc/index.asp There are some very different rules, from what USPSA/IMGA or just about any other competition will be used to.

If you're not LE, you can still participate in this match though. Send me a PM or email if you're interested in being an RO. RO's do not have to be LE/Mil. They can shoot the match, time permitting (and I will do everything I can to make sure there is time). The only down side is the non-LE folks will not be eligible for the prize table or awards.

[rtr]

We used their targets for one of the stages at the 2009 Johnson 3Gun, they are pretty cool looking.

[ac4wordplay]

Interesting match.

Low match fee and small # of competitors. The prize table looked nice.

I had to leave before results were posted - (the NRA site doesn't have them up yet) does anyone here have the results?

[Chuck Anderson]

The NRA folks flew out Monday following the match to go set up in Albequerque for the TPC and PPC Nationals. It might be a bit before they get them posted. I'll try to follow up with them this week. There were some good things and bad things about this match, at least in my opinion. I've heard from folks that ran the whole gamut from it being an awesome match to it being the work of Satan and they'll never come back. Please let me know what you thought of it. We're trying to decide if we want NRA to give it another shot with us next year or not. (I'm strongly leaning towards bringing the match back). NRA is still new to this event, it can't hurt to give them some constructive criticism so they can improve. If it starts looking like a bash fest I'll probably have to take it to PM, but I think it's important to give them feedback.

Some of the things I've heard so far:

Tan painted steel: The reasoning (as far as I know) was to keep the steel the same color as the shoot targets. The effect was it looked like the NRA took a handful of dirt from the range and had Home Depot mix a batch of paint the same color. Very difficult to see. This we might be able to get changed.

Scoring system: Rounds touching the line score the lower value. In IPSC terms, an A/C line hit would score C, a hit on the edge of the target would score a miss. I heard a ton of grumbling about this (including from me) but the scoring was even for everyone and it was explained, as well as the reasoning behind it, at the beginning of the match. I doubt the NRA would change it and I don't really think it needs to be changed.

Tactical Reloads: Tac Loads/Reloads with Retention were required if rounds were still left in the magazine. The rules were pretty relaxed on this, you could leave cover with a round in the chamber and do the Tac Load in the open. Only one tac load was REQUIRED during the whole match. I did a total of 3, and only one with the pistol. I didn't think this was that big of a deal but maybe I'm wrong. I've heard from one person that no one trains tac loads and it's completely un-tactical (is that a word?) I know my agency and every other agency I've worked for or with teaches tac-loads, I know guys with my agency have done tac-loads during/after shootings. I don't know of a single case where a magazine retained following a tac load was used again.

That brings us to tactics. Any time you have a match that tries to enforce tactics there are going to be disputes. I've heard from members of my counties tac team that were cool with the tactics used and thought the match was great and will be back. Members of another SWAT team apparently thought the tactics were horrible and will never return. Don't know what to tell you. The way I look at this match is it is something different. If you try to shoot it using a USPSA/IDPA/whatever mindset and you're locked rigidly into that, you're gonna have a rough time. If you went with an open mind and an understanding that you don't have to like the rules, you just have to shoot the match according to them, I think you probably had a good time.

Also there were a couple other comments about the NRA flying in the top three gunners to shoot the match and RO. I talked to the guy who came in 2nd in Patrol behind PPB's Sgt Kyle Nice. This was his 4th three gun match. 3rd place was about the same. The guy who came in 2nd in Tactical, Ting Sun has won a couple other TPC's around the country but is a fairly new USPSA/IDPA shooter. These guys are not hot shots. The guy who won Tactical has a little bit of experience shooting 3 gun, Dave Neth. Dave is first and foremost a cop though, and he's from the area why shouldn't he be able to come?

I'm sure there are more concerns. Please let me know. I'm not sure that the NRA will be willing to come back, I may have butted heads a couple times with the NRA myself. If they do come back I'd like to be able to address as many concerns as I can.

[spd522]

The NRA folks flew out Monday following the match to go set up in Albequerque for the TPC and PPC Nationals. It might be a bit before they get them posted. I'll try to follow up with them this week. There were some good things and bad things about this match, at least in my opinion. I've heard from folks that ran the whole gamut from it being an awesome match to it being the work of Satan and they'll never come back. Please let me know what you thought of it. We're trying to decide if we want NRA to give it another shot with us next year or not. (I'm strongly leaning towards bringing the match back). NRA is still new to this event, it can't hurt to give them some constructive criticism so they can improve. If it starts looking like a bash fest I'll probably have to take it to PM, but I think it's important to give them feedback.

Some of the things I've heard so far:

Tan painted steel: The reasoning (as far as I know) was to keep the steel the same color as the shoot targets. The effect was it looked like the NRA took a handful of dirt from the range and had Home Depot mix a batch of paint the same color. Very difficult to see. This we might be able to get changed.

Scoring system: Rounds touching the line score the lower value. In IPSC terms, an A/C line hit would score C, a hit on the edge of the target would score a miss. I heard a ton of grumbling about this (including from me) but the scoring was even for everyone and it was explained, as well as the reasoning behind it, at the beginning of the match. I doubt the NRA would change it and I don't really think it needs to be changed.

Tactical Reloads: Tac Loads/Reloads with Retention were required if rounds were still left in the magazine. The rules were pretty relaxed on this, you could leave cover with a round in the chamber and do the Tac Load in the open. Only one tac load was REQUIRED during the whole match. I did a total of 3, and only one with the pistol. I didn't think this was that big of a deal but maybe I'm wrong. I've heard from one person that no one trains tac loads and it's completely un-tactical (is that a word?) I know my agency and every other agency I've worked for or with teaches tac-loads, I know guys with my agency have done tac-loads during/after shootings. I don't know of a single case where a magazine retained following a tac load was used again.

That brings us to tactics. Any time you have a match that tries to enforce tactics there are going to be disputes. I've heard from members of my counties tac team that were cool with the tactics used and thought the match was great and will be back. Members of another SWAT team apparently thought the tactics were horrible and will never return. Don't know what to tell you. The way I look at this match is it is something different. If you try to shoot it using a USPSA/IDPA/whatever mindset and you're locked rigidly into that, you're gonna have a rough time. If you went with an open mind and an understanding that you don't have to like the rules, you just have to shoot the match according to them, I think you probably had a good time.

Also there were a couple other comments about the NRA flying in the top three gunners to shoot the match and RO. I talked to the guy who came in 2nd in Patrol behind PPB's Sgt Kyle Nice. This was his 4th three gun match. 3rd place was about the same. The guy who came in 2nd in Tactical, Ting Sun has won a couple other TPC's around the country but is a fairly new USPSA/IDPA shooter. These guys are not hot shots. The guy who won Tactical has a little bit of experience shooting 3 gun, Dave Neth. Dave is first and foremost a cop though, and he's from the area why shouldn't he be able to come?

I'm sure there are more concerns. Please let me know. I'm not sure that the NRA will be willing to come back, I may have butted heads a couple times with the NRA myself. If they do come back I'd like to be able to address as many concerns as I can.

I have shot the match the past 2 years at Stockton MO. There are some bugs to work out, I agree. I don't care for the scoring either but I do understand the reason for it. As cops, we are held to a higher standard regarding marginal hits and misses. Yes I know the average hit percent in officer involved shootings is only in the teens. But I still appreciate where they are going with it, even though it's not as much fun as hoser mode. The NRA tac reload is similar to IDPA except you can drop an empty and move with a round in the chamber. Way better than IDPA in my opinion.

I have the same opinion of the tan painted steel. Here in MO, it's the same color as the berm clay and they do disappear easily.

As for the pro shooters traveling around and winning each match, they kind of addressed that this year with the new one gun a year rule. Yes there are often better prizes on the table than a gun (LaRue upper comes to mind) but some guys hit the matches knowing they would probably get a gun each time. This didn't eliminate the top shooters but does spread the guns around a bit. Do we really want to keep these guys away just because they are really good at it? They are LE/Mil and deserve to be there just as anyone else does.

I plan on shooting the TPC match in Albuquerque later this month just because we happened to be in the vicinity at the same time visiting relatives. Most likely there will be some stages I don't like or rules I disagree with. It's still fun to me and I am looking forward to it.

Craig

Edited September 1, 2009 by spd522

[abn-rgr]

The NRA folks flew out Monday following the match to go set up in Albequerque for the TPC and PPC Nationals. It might be a bit before they get them posted. I'll try to follow up with them this week. There were some good things and bad things about this match, at least in my opinion. I've heard from folks that ran the whole gamut from it being an awesome match to it being the work of Satan and they'll never come back. Please let me know what you thought of it. We're trying to decide if we want NRA to give it another shot with us next year or not. (I'm strongly leaning towards bringing the match back). NRA is still new to this event, it can't hurt to give them some constructive criticism so they can improve. If it starts looking like a bash fest I'll probably have to take it to PM, but I think it's important to give them feedback.

Some of the things I've heard so far:

Tan painted steel: The reasoning (as far as I know) was to keep the steel the same color as the shoot targets. The effect was it looked like the NRA took a handful of dirt from the range and had Home Depot mix a batch of paint the same color. Very difficult to see. This we might be able to get changed.

Scoring system: Rounds touching the line score the lower value. In IPSC terms, an A/C line hit would score C, a hit on the edge of the target would score a miss. I heard a ton of grumbling about this (including from me) but the scoring was even for everyone and it was explained, as well as the reasoning behind it, at the beginning of the match. I doubt the NRA would change it and I don't really think it needs to be changed.

Tactical Reloads: Tac Loads/Reloads with Retention were required if rounds were still left in the magazine. The rules were pretty relaxed on this, you could leave cover with a round in the chamber and do the Tac Load in the open. Only one tac load was REQUIRED during the whole match. I did a total of 3, and only one with the pistol. I didn't think this was that big of a deal but maybe I'm wrong. I've heard from one person that no one trains tac loads and it's completely un-tactical (is that a word?) I know my agency and every other agency I've worked for or with teaches tac-loads, I know guys with my agency have done tac-loads during/after shootings. I don't know of a single case where a magazine retained following a tac load was used again.

That brings us to tactics. Any time you have a match that tries to enforce tactics there are going to be disputes. I've heard from members of my counties tac team that were cool with the tactics used and thought the match was great and will be back. Members of another SWAT team apparently thought the tactics were horrible and will never return. Don't know what to tell you. The way I look at this match is it is something different. If you try to shoot it using a USPSA/IDPA/whatever mindset and you're locked rigidly into that, you're gonna have a rough time. If you went with an open mind and an understanding that you don't have to like the rules, you just have to shoot the match according to them, I think you probably had a good time.

Also there were a couple other comments about the NRA flying in the top three gunners to shoot the match and RO. I talked to the guy who came in 2nd in Patrol behind PPB's Sgt Kyle Nice. This was his 4th three gun match. 3rd place was about the same. The guy who came in 2nd in Tactical, Ting Sun has won a couple other TPC's around the country but is a fairly new USPSA/IDPA shooter. These guys are not hot shots. The guy who won Tactical has a little bit of experience shooting 3 gun, Dave Neth. Dave is first and foremost a cop though, and he's from the area why shouldn't he be able to come?

I'm sure there are more concerns. Please let me know. I'm not sure that the NRA will be willing to come back, I may have butted heads a couple times with the NRA myself. If they do come back I'd like to be able to address as many concerns as I can.

I have shot the match the past 2 years at Stockton MO. There are some bugs to work out, I agree. I don't care for the scoring either but I do understand the reason for it. As cops, we are held to a higher standard regarding marginal hits and misses. Yes I know the average hit percent in officer involved shootings is only in the teens. But I still appreciate where they are going with it, even though it's not as much fun as hoser mode. The NRA tac reload is similar to IDPA except you can drop an empty and move with a round in the chamber. Way better than IDPA in my opinion.

I have the same opinion of the tan painted steel. Here in MO, it's the same color as the berm clay and they do disappear easily.

As for the pro shooters traveling around and winning each match, they kind of addressed that this year with the new one gun a year rule. Yes there are often better prizes on the table than a gun (LaRue upper comes to mind) but some guys hit the matches knowing they would probably get a gun each time. This didn't eliminate the top shooters but does spread the guns around a bit. Do we really want to keep these guys away just because they are really good at it? They are LE/Mil and deserve to be there just as anyone else does.

I plan on shooting the TPC match in Albuquerque later this month just because we happened to be in the vicinity at the same time visiting relatives. Most likely there will be some stages I don't like or rules I disagree with. It's still fun to me and I am looking forward to it.

Craig

Here is my take on the NRA flying their RO's around. I have RO'ed the last two years at the Stockton, MO match. The NRA wont allow other shooters to come early and look over the stages. As an RO, I was able to not only look over the stages, but help set them up. If they would let shooters look over the courses of fire early, I cant see how anyone could gripe about the RO's winning the match. Its a fun match with a good prize table. You have to adapt to new rules for almost every 3 gun match you go to. Thats just the way it is.

[Chuck Anderson]

Just a quick clarification. The Larue uppers are in the same category as guns. You only get one gun or Larue Upper per year. At least that's what they said at our match. Didn't really matter because both Larue's went to shooters who shot this match for the first time and finished in first place.

[MarcO]

Chuck,

Overall I felt this was an excellent match. I agree with you about the color of the steel, you could not see the skinny poppers with iron sights. Thank goodness the tripods they were sitting on were painted black.

While the rules were different they were the same for everyone, and I can understand the logic of most of them. The prize table was generous and the one gun per year rule seems to me to be fair as well.

All in all I felt it was a good match and I would shoot it again if I had the opportunity. My thanks to you and Everitt for all your time and energy in bringing this match to Portland. I haven't seen this kind of attendance since the old Al Mar and Clackamas County matches of the 90's.

Just my 2 cents and worth what you paid for it.

Marc

[spd522]

Just a quick clarification. The Larue uppers are in the same category as guns. You only get one gun or Larue Upper per year. At least that's what they said at our match. Didn't really matter because both Larue's went to shooters who shot this match for the first time and finished in first place.

I didn't know that. I just heard the actual gun part. May have changed since the Stockton match in May.

I don't have a problem with it. The tables at these have been more than generous, especially considering the

entry fee.

I do find it odd that Glock and S&W are absent. Considering their battle for LE sales, it would be a good

venue. Glock was at the 2008 Stockton match with a display table only. The rep at the

table said they would be back and donate guns however they were a complete no-show in 2009. Maybe a sign of

the times............

Craig

[CraigS.]

I did get to RO this match and shoot it for the first time.

Mark Lipp the director and his staff and the other RO's that arrived early were very friendly and

helpful with any questions or concerns.

The format was different with the scoring and rules but, so are the three other matches

I compete in monthly as well as nationaly, you just make sure you understand them before you start

and take that mindset.

The stages were challenging and the prize table was very nice, even though I did not walk it

I did recieve a goodie bag from the NRA as thanks for volunteering my time.

and they had a B-B-Q lunch as well, not bad for only $35 ! wish more matches were like this!

I'd be happy to do it again! what ever it takes to promote muti-gun and getting more people out shooting.

Thanks, Chuck & Everett well done !

I had a great time , Craig S.

[rkgsmith]

Shot the match in Fairfax earlier this year. Like many I don't agree with the rules regarding the scoring border hits. However that being said, I knew the rules before I shot the match, and it applied to everybody, so like it or not it was fair.

Prizes were given out according to order of finish and Larue uppers counted just like guns. Because of this I finished 4th in tactical, and was the 8th guy to go to the table and still got an STI single stack 45, which I thought was pretty good for a 35 dollar match.

Personally I won't travel for a trophy only match, however some guys will and I say good for them. If you win a gun or upper, then no more guns for you, and I see nothing wrong with that. Sometimes guys like to see better shooters at a match just for the chance to see how somebody else would shoot a stage, or what type of gear they are using. If your a top shot and enjoy traveling to these matches for trophies, again I say good for you.

When I shot the match there was a stage that had paper targets (no shoots ) on a shotgun "shot" stage. One of the RO's said if a pellet strikes the furring strip holding the target it would be considered a hostage hit. After a short discussion with the MD this was resolved. Now was the stage RO trying to be a "dick " about it, No he wasn't. He just didn't know the rules about scoring zones on targets. Would this have happened at an area match, again No. But this is the type of things that come up and need corrected. That will take time. Let the NRA get some match experience and problems like this will go away.

I have shot the match 2 years running, and will continue to shoot it when it comes to town. It's a good match, and allows some LE guys to experience the thrill of 3 gun. Who knows some will stray into USPSA and that is good for all of us.

[ac4wordplay]

... Please let me know what you thought of it. ... NRA is still new to this event, it can't hurt to give them some constructive criticism so they can improve. If it starts looking like a bash fest I'll probably have to take it to PM, but I think it's important to give them feedback.

... If they do come back I'd like to be able to address as many concerns as I can.

This is all intended to be constructive.

I didn't pay to shoot the match (staff perk - match fee waived), and as a civilian I knew I wasn't eligible to walk the prize table. I enjoyed shooting the stages, but I didn't see any of them as "special". All the NRA staff I interacted with were polite, respectful, seemed sincere, and most were quite friendly.

I was impressed with how much they brought/shipped to TCGC - they brought almost all of their own tools/equipment, and did lumber runs Wednesday and Thursday mornings for the supplies to build their walls/props. They used very little of the TCGC props. Their crew seemed accustomed to working set-up together without local assistance (to the point where those of us who showed on Wednesday and Thursday almost felt unnecessary and in the way).

The Friday staff match was a bit awkward at times. The NRA staff ROs seemed somewhat uncertain of their rules and procedures. I saw different NRA staff ROs run the same stage differently, resulting in potential advantages to some competitors. One NRA staff RO had several competitors load pistols at the same time (to save time on individual loading procedures?) and walk around "hot" while taping/resetting the stage. When I questioned about an apparent 180 violation one NRA staff RO informed me that the 180 followed the shooter and that as long as the muzzle didn't point at an individual and was contained within the bay, then there wasn't a problem - I was surprised, and asked for clarification, and further conversation indicated that with a target at ~ 170 (IPSC conventional 170) that one could be downrange and point a muzzle at the uprange end of the berm and as long as no individual was in line with the muzzle, and the muzzle didn't cross to the open, no berm, "mouth" of the bay, there was no problem, no 180 violation. That contradicts the language in the NRA TPC Standards section 3.2.7 (we weren't talking about a multi-bay stage which would require a "floating 180".

During both the Friday staff match and the Saturday match several long guns were pointed (not "aimed") at me while being carried between stages - they were being carried horizontally, violating the match-required cased or "muzzle down" carry/transport manner (NRA TPC Standards section 3.2.3), and additionally violating the matches 1st two "core safety rules" (NRA TPC Standards section 3.1). Lots of firearm handling occurred (parking lot, bays, etc.) which seemed to be in violation of NRA TPC Standards section 3.2.5. Staff didn't seem to care and I didn't see or hear of any actions being taken to correct such behaviors.

I was amazed that an organization (the NRA) that often describes itself as the preeminent firearm safety training organization would allow such blatant disregard for its own safety rules at its match. Why do they include safety rules in the NRA TPC rulebook if nobody follows or enforces them?

Prior to the match, I had studied the rules posted on the NRA TPC website, as well as the rules distributed via e-mail to local volunteer staff. After some confusing events on Saturday I double checked and realized that the match scoring rules were inconsistent and contradictory. The match booklet distributed to each competitor states:

Hit on a Non_Threat Target: For each round fired on a Non Threat Target, including rounds partial (sic) breaking the edge, a Procedural Penalty (10 seconds) is assessed.

Compare the above with the rules found at the NRA TPC website (NRA TPC Standards .pdf, section 7.7.5), which states:

Hit on a Non_Threat Target: For each round fired on a Non Threat Target a Procedural Penalty is assessed. To be considered a hit the entire round must be on the target.

To further confuse matters, NRA staff had announced that only one hit per non-threat target would be scored as a penalty (old USPSA style - "you can only kill the no-shoot once"), and had stated that a non-threat target required a full diameter hit to be scored as a penalty.

The Saturday match ran fairly well (much quicker and smoother than I had expected - based on the Friday staff match). Almost everyone I spoke with enjoyed the Saturday match, regardless of how they shot. A few competitors were vocal about scoring inconsistencies (detailed above). The competitors I interacted with were all friendly and appreciative.

Suggestions:

Remove inconsistent/contradictory scoring information.

Eliminate rules that aren't expected to be followed and won't be enforced (extraneous rules).

Require the following and enforcing of any safety rules that remain in the rulebook.

I hope this is useful in improving future matches. The match has excellent potential. I would volunteer to work another NRA TPC match and support my host club.

ac

[L-10_shooter]

I did get to RO this match and shoot it for the first time.

Mark Lipp the director and his staff and the other RO's that arrived early were very friendly and

helpful with any questions or concerns.

The format was different with the scoring and rules but, so are the three other matches

I compete in monthly as well as nationaly, you just make sure you understand them before you start

and take that mindset.

The stages were challenging and the prize table was very nice, even though I did not walk it

I did recieve a goodie bag from the NRA as thanks for volunteering my time.

and they had a B-B-Q lunch as well, not bad for only $35 ! wish more matches were like this!

I'd be happy to do it again! what ever it takes to promote muti-gun and getting more people out shooting.

Thanks, Chuck & Everett well done !

I had a great time , Craig S.

I am with Craig. Our stage went very smooth and all the competitors enjoyed the stage (rifle only). I enjoyed myself and had fun. The RO match Friday started way to late and was not run very effeciently.

The big problem I had was the long gun handling and group loading. During the ro match, many people did not keep long guns pointed down or in a case. Walking around with a hot gun was very wierd and made me a bit uncomfortable. (I dont carry concealed). That was the only issue that I had with the match. I would like to be a part of it again if they come back next year.