ringram Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 There has been some discussion of whether a downed no shoot with no visible pellet marks but a solid wad mark counts as down. After scouring the rules I can only see the comment that steel down counts as hit. Therefore I think a down no shoot is a penalty. After all perhaps the wad carried a couple of pellets with it? Anyway some info on this would be good. Afterall its concievable that shoot targets are downed with nothing more than a wad... nobody complains about them. Anyone with a definitive answer? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 I keep $100 bill pinned in my range bag for this kind of call. I’ll arbitrate this one in a heartbeat and win. We reward the shooter for bullet/shot hits. Penalize them the same way. Wads, frags, splatter and bugs don't count. Recalibrate the falling steel. How fast does a wad have to go to make minor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 a bit more info on this plate. normally all penalties are painted before each competitor but not in this case. As i do not normally shoot them i let it slide to maintain match eficiency(no paint on stage) . the penalty already had hits on from previous competitor. so i shot the stage and it was down at the end. i ask for it to be checked for wads and the answer was "i'm not checking it as it fell when you fired " fair enough. i sign the sheet. moral -refuse to shoot unless you are happy with the set up and bugger match eficiency. what i normally do when ROing is if there is a wad hit but no pellets it does not count even one pellet and it counts. this is normal practise. the rules only refer to paper/card targets with wad hits not being scored if they can be proved to be such. ergo they cannot score for hits on targets or penalty targets on papers so i ASSUME they cannot score on steels. this only cost me the GB title. so i am not at all p*****ed off about it. Vince Neil Myra answers please james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi guys, Metal scoring targets score points (and metal penalty targets incur penalties) when they fall, and marks on their surface, if any, have no bearing. The relevant rules in the new (January 2004 Edition) IPSC Shotgun Rulebook are: 4.3.1.5 Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1). 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Metal penalty targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1). And, in anticipation of the next question, "any other reason" means (for example) due to wind action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 James, One more thing - there's a big difference when considering wad hits in respect of metal and paper targets, but in both cases, the wad is presumed to travel in the same direction as the slug (or pellets). The "special" rule for scoring paper targets only deals with cases where there are two holes in a paper target but where it cannot be determined which hole was caused by the wad and which hole was caused by the slug. The relevant rule is: 9.5.7 If a wad has caused an extra hole in a paper target and it cannot be determined which hole has been caused by the actual slug, the competitor must reshoot the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 ok sorry Richard you are / were right thank you Vince all is now clear I now foresee a problem that as wads do NOT follow the shot for more than about 5m an element of chance has now entered the equation when lightweight plates are being used. Perhaps there should be a minimum calibration setting of 450 rather than just a max of 520. Happy not to be a match director james Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Guys, Since you probably have more experience than me with respect to shooting Shotgun matches, I have a question for you: What would be the negative implications, if any, if IPSC specified that only 00 Buck could be used (i.e. no birdshot or slugs) at Shotgun matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Major cost impact to competitors for no real benefit?? I can get birdshot for $3.50/25 all over the place. Bangs down steel just fine. 00 Buck is $3.50 for five Also note tha 00 Buck is difficult or impossible to get in 20 GA. Pasting 8 buckshot holes in each target also can be time and target consuming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Please do not do this, in the UK this would lead to the PROHIBITION of slug and reduce the number of venues we can shoot at to erm 3 as the safety distance for 00 is much greater than birdshot. Also as Shred says cost £28/250 versus £50/250. ditto patching . also a loss of match design freedom.so all in alll not a good idea for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Hi guys, Thanks for the feedback. Please note that my question is not "on the table" with the rules committee - I just wanted to satisfy my own curioisty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 i did not have time to give a full answer this morning so here is another reason. RO safety. yep the poor RO gets more splashback than anybody else particularly with sg,. I ran a 28 round steel stage this year and came away rather battered after 28 *28*9 balls had hit and some came back .thats over 7000 projectiles with about70 % of the energy of a 9mm round bouncing around. someone will stop something guaranteed. Ok stage design and target layout has an impact on this but imagine 120 rds fired by 100 shooters of 9 ball....108,000 projectiles, almost as many as a level4 pistol match and you know how many ricochets they have. this i think is why no sg was in the ESC as the ranges were not big enough to nescesitate its effective and safe use, well thats my opinion. i may be wrong as i am with so many other things. please feel to ask more questions I would rather see them here than in a new rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ringram Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Aha, ok so now Im mentally comfortable. My answer is to place no shoots in a slightly different place so as not to allow wads to hit so easily. It has been common practice in the UK to obscure shoot targets so that only an inch or two is visible, a tricky shot with a shotgun, but possible. Perhaps no shoots can be heavier or made to fall with a proper power factor etc too. Anyway, I tend to think that if no shoots score as down and it was a wad its bad stage/range/target design. I think we need to change something so that it doesnt happen so much, take ESC for example, if a no shoot was down there, you can rest assured it was hit hard. In the UK Im not so sure. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Waitaminit, I thought no-shoot steel that is marked requires a penalty be assessed, even if it doesn't fall. (The main reason we've not seen a no-shoot steel in a local match in years-no one wants the hassle of painting and inspecting no-shoot poppers for every shooter.) If the no-shoot steel is bolted to a prop, and can't fall, what are you doing putting it so close to a shoot target that the wad can hit it? Or is this just a slug stage problem? By a strict reading, the wad is part of the payload, and if it strikes the no-shoot steel it earns a penalty. If we change to "steel must fall" then who cares if the wad hits or not. This is confusing. My head hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Patrick, Penalty metal targets can be designed to stay rigid or to fall under Handgun rules, but they must fall under Shotgun rules. The respective rules are: Handgun: 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets designed to fall or overturn when hit, but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, will be treated as range equipment failure. 4.3.1.8 Metal penalty targets designed to remain upright when hit must be repainted after each competitor ends their attempt at the course of fire, failing which subsequent competitors must not be penalized for hits visible on their surface. Shotgun: 4.3.1.7 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Metal penalty targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure (see Rule 4.6.1). 4.3.1.8 (No such rule) Vive le difference ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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