competitor does not perform a mandatory reload

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ok after reading rule 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 - I am confused. So a shooter has to perform a mandatory reload and engage say a popper. He shoots 4 rounds before hitting the popper without doing the mandatory reload.

Would that be 4 procedurals or just 1, since rule 10.2.3 states that the procedural can't exced the maximum number of scoring hits. but in the same rule it sayd in the above cases, which the mandatory reload is actually the rule below that statement.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Spray_N_Prey

[G-ManBart]

I think 10.2.3 pretty clearly states it would be one penalty since only one popper was available in your scenario.

"For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while

faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will

receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to

a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots

fired."

Granted you said it was a failure to reload rather than faulting a line, but in this case you're calling them both a significant advantage with a per shot penalty so the same rules should apply. R,

Edit to add:

After reading 10.2.4 I think the above doesn't apply and it's 4 since there are no exceptions listed. R,

Edited June 14, 2009 by G-ManBart

[ChuckS]

10.2.3 Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not

exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the

competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while

faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will

receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to

a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots

fired.

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur

one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

10.2.4 spells it out and there are no exceptions and no limits other than finally doing the reload. Looks like 4 to me.

Blowing the reload seems to be a heinous kind of not following the WSB.

Later,

Chuck

[kgunz11]

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur

one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

That's pretty black and white to me. It specifically cites the reload and is not used as an example. It's 1 penalty per shot fired.

[Nik Habicht]

Bart, Chuck and Bobby have the correct answer.....

[Flexmoney]

I've never understand the logic in the "above cases" stuff.

It just doesn't make any sense.

I wonder if it wasn't left-over wording from some earlier version of the rules that got carried over and more examples of procedurals were provided under it.

Could be one of these??? http://www.snopes.com/weddings/newlywed/secret.asp

[Nik Habicht]

Kyle,

the rules are consistent through the Green book all the way back to the Red --- USPSA Rule Book, 14th Edition 2001. The wording's a little different, but all the pieces are there --- multiple procedurals up to the number of scoring hits, unlimited procedurals for failing to comply with a mandatory reload, etc.....

I don't know when the rule first appeared.....

[G-ManBart]

Bart, Chuck and Bobby have the correct answer.....

In my edit (a while after I posted originally) I said the same thing. I didn't want to just delete the first part since I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to be a smarty pants after the fact

[Pat Miles]

Bart, Chuck and Bobby have the correct answer.....

In my edit (a while after I posted originally) I said the same thing. I didn't want to just delete the first part since I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to be a smarty pants after the fact

Smarty pants?

CYa,

Pat

[FLL1911]

It is very clear to me that in this situation only one procedural penalty, not 4 should be scored.

10.2.3 – It states clearly the limit of penalties, which is the maximum of available scoring hits – just one (forget the example, if the example does not fit this case, it does not mean that different situations do not apply)

10.2.4 – It states that multiple penalties should be applied for not reloading. It does not say that the limit does not apply, and it cannot be implied by the rule text.

Since 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 are under the same item (10.2), they should be read as complementary, not exclusive of each other.

I wish the rule book would list the examples apart from the rule text.

[Nik Habicht]

It is very clear to me that in this situation only one procedural penalty, not 4 should be scored.

10.2.3 – It states clearly the limit of penalties, which is the maximum of available scoring hits – just one (forget the example, if the example does not fit this case, it does not mean that different situations do not apply)

10.2.4 – It states that multiple penalties should be applied for not reloading. It does not say that the limit does not apply, and it cannot be implied by the rule text.

Since 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 are under the same item (10.2), they should be read as complementary, not exclusive of each other.

I wish the rule book would list the examples apart from the rule text.

Actually 10.2.4 states specifically that one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

And 10.2.3 specifically references the above cases, i.e. 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 --- as such it can not apply to 10.2.4, and must be deemed exclusionary in this instance.....

[FLL1911]

It is very clear to me that in this situation only one procedural penalty, not 4 should be scored.

10.2.3 – It states clearly the limit of penalties, which is the maximum of available scoring hits – just one (forget the example, if the example does not fit this case, it does not mean that different situations do not apply)

10.2.4 – It states that multiple penalties should be applied for not reloading. It does not say that the limit does not apply, and it cannot be implied by the rule text.

Since 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 are under the same item (10.2), they should be read as complementary, not exclusive of each other.

I wish the rule book would list the examples apart from the rule text.

Actually 10.2.4 states specifically that one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

And 10.2.3 specifically references the above cases, i.e. 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 --- as such it can not apply to 10.2.4, and must be deemed exclusionary in this instance.....

Sorry, but 10.2.3 applies to all procedural penalties (including 10.2.8, not discussed here). None in the rules applies only "to the above cases", unless the item is explicitly referenced, and 10.2.3 does not make any reference to any other item.

One procedural penalty overall in should be scored in this specific example. 10.2.3 AND 10.2.4 supports it.

[G-ManBart]

It is very clear to me that in this situation only one procedural penalty, not 4 should be scored.

10.2.3 – It states clearly the limit of penalties, which is the maximum of available scoring hits – just one (forget the example, if the example does not fit this case, it does not mean that different situations do not apply)

10.2.4 – It states that multiple penalties should be applied for not reloading. It does not say that the limit does not apply, and it cannot be implied by the rule text.

Since 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 are under the same item (10.2), they should be read as complementary, not exclusive of each other.

I wish the rule book would list the examples apart from the rule text.

Actually 10.2.4 states specifically that one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

And 10.2.3 specifically references the above cases, i.e. 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 --- as such it can not apply to 10.2.4, and must be deemed exclusionary in this instance.....

Sorry, but 10.2.3 applies to all procedural penalties (including 10.2.8, not discussed here). None in the rules applies only "to the above cases", unless the item is explicitly referenced, and 10.2.3 does not make any reference to any other item.

One procedural penalty overall in should be scored in this specific example. 10.2.3 AND 10.2.4 supports it.

If they wanted 10.2.4 to read the way you're interpreting it they would have said something like "one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed, with the maximum number of penalties not exceeding the available number of hits per 10.2.3"....or something like that.

[FLL1911]

It is very clear to me that in this situation only one procedural penalty, not 4 should be scored.

10.2.3 – It states clearly the limit of penalties, which is the maximum of available scoring hits – just one (forget the example, if the example does not fit this case, it does not mean that different situations do not apply)

10.2.4 – It states that multiple penalties should be applied for not reloading. It does not say that the limit does not apply, and it cannot be implied by the rule text.

Since 10.2.3 and 10.2.4 are under the same item (10.2), they should be read as complementary, not exclusive of each other.

I wish the rule book would list the examples apart from the rule text.

Actually 10.2.4 states specifically that one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

And 10.2.3 specifically references the above cases, i.e. 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 --- as such it can not apply to 10.2.4, and must be deemed exclusionary in this instance.....

You are correct. Re-read all rules section again, and now I am convinced - 10.2.3 does not apply to 10.2.4 therefore 4 procedural penalties.

Sorry, but 10.2.3 applies to all procedural penalties (including 10.2.8, not discussed here). None in the rules applies only "to the above cases", unless the item is explicitly referenced, and 10.2.3 does not make any reference to any other item.

One procedural penalty overall in should be scored in this specific example. 10.2.3 AND 10.2.4 supports it.

If they wanted 10.2.4 to read the way you're interpreting it they would have said something like "one procedural penalty should be applied per shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed, with the maximum number of penalties not exceeding the available number of hits per 10.2.3"....or something like that.

You are correct. Re-read all rules section again, and now I am convinced - 10.2.3 does not apply to 10.2.4 therefore 4 procedural penalties.

[Flexmoney]

Just turn the rule book over. lol

[Spray_N_Prey]

yeah Kyle that wording is what kinda threw me there. I haven't had that come up yet, but I am glad I will be prepared when it does.

Thanks guys

Shawn G.