Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Greetings boys and girls, IT'S A PROUD DAY FOR THE NEW RELOADER Well, I'm new to reloading. Also new to USPSA and my shooting habit brought me to purchase a Dillon 650 for reloading. I started out with 9mm, 124 CMJ Montana Gold, 4.5gr Winchester 231 powder and winchester primers in cleaned up one time shot brass. The OAL is 1.150 which I obtained from the Blazer Brass length of a 115 gr. round. At an indoor 10 yd range I shot the factory Blazer 115gr aside my 124 MG relaods to judge the recoil, accuracy and whatever. The recoil may have been a little different but no problem to control and no difference in grouping. Side by side, 70 rounds each, no difference in groups. Looking good and very proud of myself. HERE COME THE BLUES I go to a match last night to shoot my stuff and prematch I decide to shoot my goodies at a burm behind the 100 yd targets. It was dry and you could easily see the bullet impact on the burm. Looked like fun to me. Pick out a peice of paper about mid high on the burm and started shooting. First shot-6 ft. high, second shot-6 to 7 ft. high 10 o'clock, third-5 ft. 4 o'clock, forth-4 to 5 ft. 9 o'clock, 5th through 24th shots were all in about a fourteen foot group. Ain't no way baby!!! Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. How in the world can two bullets passing through a single four inch barrel go from a two to a fourteen foot group differential??? Question is: WT*? Over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Crimp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I know someone else shooting 38 super comp and had the same accuracy problem with MG 124 CMJs. I can't say it's the bullet - because I'm sure my group is naturally about a 4 ft shotgun blast at 100 yd, but I'll relay the info - it's worth trying something like 125 gr. HAP in a few loads and see what that yield is. I have few I could mail ya if you want to try them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 What kind of gun? My first guess would also be crimp problems. As in Waaayy to much. Purely old school seat of the pants but run a finger down the side of a couple of factory rounds and then down the side of your reloads. Does the "ledge" where the brass stops and the bullet begins feel pretty similar? If the transition on your reloads feels nice and smooth at the location the brass meets the bullet.... You are (probably) considerably over crimping the loads. This ruins accuracy.... If you have any friends who are experienced loaders have them take a look see at your ammo.... .02 from me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. What's your crimp diameter? Also, a two feet group from a few yards away with 4 inch barrel is still something to be concerned about. Also, I can shoot 124 CMJ MGB at 20 yds at 2-3 inch group freestyle. I am sure HAPs are better but I know 124 CMJ's are not that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. What's your crimp diameter? Also, a two feet group from a few yards away with 4 inch barrel is still something to be concerned about. Also, I can shoot 124 CMJ MGB at 20 yds at 2-3 inch group freestyle. I am sure HAPs are better but I know 124 CMJ's are not that far. The target was at 100yds. Was the gun rested for this little experiment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin garcia Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. What's your crimp diameter? Also, a two feet group from a few yards away with 4 inch barrel is still something to be concerned about. Also, I can shoot 124 CMJ MGB at 20 yds at 2-3 inch group freestyle. I am sure HAPs are better but I know 124 CMJ's are not that far. The target was at 100yds. Was the gun rested for this little experiment? Must be my eyes... If that's the case, OP might just want to try a 7-10 yrd target for starters and see where it groups. A sandbag or some form of stable rest would not be a bad idea either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Crimp? I have a mic at the house and can check tonight. Some of my very first production fail to contain powder and after removing the bullet from the barrel I noticed a crimp line around the bullet. The line was not super deep and a reloader at the local gun shop commented it wasn't to heavy. So, I back off the crimp adjustment a little. I have not pulled another bullet to check the the bullet for any markings. The batch in question was after the no powder episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 I know someone else shooting 38 super comp and had the same accuracy problem with MG 124 CMJs. I can't say it's the bullet - because I'm sure my group is naturally about a 4 ft shotgun blast at 100 yd, but I'll relay the info - it's worth trying something like 125 gr. HAP in a few loads and see what that yield is. I have few I could mail ya if you want to try them. What is an HAP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 What kind of gun? My first guess would also be crimp problems. As in Waaayy to much. Purely old school seat of the pants but run a finger down the side of a couple of factory rounds and then down the side of your reloads. Does the "ledge" where the brass stops and the bullet begins feel pretty similar? If the transition on your reloads feels nice and smooth at the location the brass meets the bullet.... You are (probably) considerably over crimping the loads. This ruins accuracy.... If you have any friends who are experienced loaders have them take a look see at your ammo.... .02 from me.... The gun is a Springfield XD-9 service. 4 inch barrel. The ledge feels and looks no different than the Blazer 9. I will put a micrometer on them tonight. Is this something you can see with a mic or is the crimp just at the very top of the shell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) I have a mic at the house and can check tonight. I would start out with bullet diameter plus twice the case thickness measured right at the very top of the case. I would think that especially with a 9mm tapered case you would be better off measuring this with calipers. Edited May 1, 2009 by Greg Bell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I know someone else shooting 38 super comp and had the same accuracy problem with MG 124 CMJs. I can't say it's the bullet - because I'm sure my group is naturally about a 4 ft shotgun blast at 100 yd, but I'll relay the info - it's worth trying something like 125 gr. HAP in a few loads and see what that yield is. I have few I could mail ya if you want to try them. What is an HAP? HAP = Hornady Action Pistol Type of bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. What's your crimp diameter? Also, a two feet group from a few yards away with 4 inch barrel is still something to be concerned about. Also, I can shoot 124 CMJ MGB at 20 yds at 2-3 inch group freestyle. I am sure HAPs are better but I know 124 CMJ's are not that far. The range was 100 yards and it started just for the fun of it. Once I saw the placement was nearly in space I became concerned. I was firing from standing position, two hand freestyle. No matter how you look at it, there was a major difference in group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 (edited) Pulled out a box of factory Blazer 115gr, loaded up and produced a two foot group with twelve rounds. What's your crimp diameter? Also, a two feet group from a few yards away with 4 inch barrel is still something to be concerned about. Also, I can shoot 124 CMJ MGB at 20 yds at 2-3 inch group freestyle. I am sure HAPs are better but I know 124 CMJ's are not that far. The target was at 100yds. Was the gun rested for this little experiment? Must be my eyes... If that's the case, OP might just want to try a 7-10 yrd target for starters and see where it groups. A sandbag or some form of stable rest would not be a bad idea either. Negative gun rest. Standing position, two hand freestyle. Also, at 10 yards, the day before, I could tell no difference between the Blazer and my reloads. They were both 3 inch groups. Edited May 1, 2009 by Jachin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 1, 2009 Author Share Posted May 1, 2009 I have a mic at the house and can check tonight. I would start out with bullet diameter plus twice the case thickness measured right at the very top of the case. I would think that especially with a 9mm tapered case you would be better off measuring this with calipers. Have caliber, will check tonight. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I would think the OAL would be different between a 115 Blazer and the 124s you're using because of different bullet lengths. Could be that you're cramming too much bullet in the case and deforming the bullet in the process of crimping. Alan~^~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringop Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 I would suggest testing the same ammo combo off a rest at 15 and 20 yards. There are just way to many variables shooting at 100 yards freestyle and watching the bullet impacts in the berm. Get scientific on it! Gringop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 2, 2009 Author Share Posted May 2, 2009 First, thanks to all for a great response. As science would have it, the crimp in thous is .375, with an occasional .374 and a .376. That is measured at the highest point on the case and down the case about two millimeters. Bullet measured .355. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted May 2, 2009 Share Posted May 2, 2009 .375 sounds good might try loading some a bit shorter as an experiment. Also play with your powder charge weights a bit. Refer to your loading manual for starting and max loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 .375 sounds good might try loading some a bit shorter as an experiment. Also play with your powder charge weights a bit. Refer to your loading manual for starting and max loads. In 9mm, you want to crimp just until all traces of the belling/flare from the powder die are removed, and stop. Do not crimp the bullet. Simply remove the flare so that the sides of the case are straight, and you're good. The first thing I would do, would be to head back to the range and shoot a 10 yard group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 3, 2009 Author Share Posted May 3, 2009 .375 sounds good might try loading some a bit shorter as an experiment. Also play with your powder charge weights a bit. Refer to your loading manual for starting and max loads. In 9mm, you want to crimp just until all traces of the belling/flare from the powder die are removed, and stop. Do not crimp the bullet. Simply remove the flare so that the sides of the case are straight, and you're good. The first thing I would do, would be to head back to the range and shoot a 10 yard group. Based on all the advise here, I'm thinking and hoping that the problem lies in the crimping. Looking back, the rounds in question here may have been from the original settings that left a definite dimpled ring on the bullet which I now think was way to tight. Last night I seperated a round made after I lightened the crimp from the original setting. The bullet had no dimpled ring on the bullet at all. I had to twist it out a little. I would say it was snug. So... it will be Tuesday before I can make it to the range for some scientific testing. Will report findings latter next week. Thanks all, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remy Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 I think this thread about transonic loads may be relevant. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...mp;hl=transonic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Bell Posted May 3, 2009 Share Posted May 3, 2009 Remy, Excellent reference! Jachin, Make sure you aren't now going too light on your crimp. I grabbed on of my rounds and put a caliper on it, it measured .3755 - .3755. At that crimp the bullet is very tight, I cannot induce setback and it would require a kinetic puller to remove the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 I think this thread about transonic loads may be relevant.http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...mp;hl=transonic Greetings Remy, Interrestins thread. Digging around online I found some chrono's for a load very similar to mine. They were claiming 1060 fps., which is subsonic. The duds receip was the exact weight of Winchester 231 powder I use, same weight billet and close OAL of 1.140-1.145. My OAL is 1.145-1.148. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jachin Posted May 5, 2009 Author Share Posted May 5, 2009 Remy,Excellent reference! Jachin, Make sure you aren't now going too light on your crimp. I grabbed on of my rounds and put a caliper on it, it measured .3755 - .3755. At that crimp the bullet is very tight, I cannot induce setback and it would require a kinetic puller to remove the bullet. I've read some very strange things associated with tight crimps in the last few days and especially shooting at distance. Like the bullet takes on a mind of it own out passed 50 yards. After seeing the dimple I left on the bullet I can't imagin what aerodynamic may have taken over once it left the barrel. I read today that a good crimp on 9mm is .377 for .355 bullets. I'm measuring .375 to an occasional .376. That's pretty much what you have and the puller I used was a pair of vice grips. It took a couple of twist to bring her out, but no dimple on the bullet. There was an impression on the bullet, like a pressed fit, but nothing I could feel like the dimple I had or even an impression of a dimple. I went to an indoor range today and at 10 yards (range is only 10 yards) bench resting the pistol, all 12 rounds went into two holes. One hole was the size of a 9mm bullet and the other 11 were in a hole a little bigger than a quarter. I'm writting that one stranger off. Tomorrow or Wednesday I may be able to make it to the 25 yard range and test at a greater distance. All in all, I'm totally amazed at how much everything matters in the physics of projectilies. Just for fun I going to mic a few flaired cases, back off the crimp and slowly bring the crimp down in 1/2 flat turns and see how it works. Might even get a collar puller and hang some weights on it to measure the pull to remove the bullet. It'll be interresting to find out how the pros gauge their crimps. Top of the evening to ya, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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