Newbie Revolver Advice for USPSA / IDPA

[JasonL]

Hi folks,

I own a Model 28-2 S&W (4"). I purchased this gun a month and a bit ago. At the time I had no idea competitive shooting existed beyond the Olympic rifle shooting. In fact, before 2 months ago I had never held a Handgun other than ancient museum pieces (I'm from Canada, "gun" there means a 12 gauge or the .303 you kill critters and food with). Well, after many range visits and taking some classes with a USPSA shooter (non-revolver, but still a great guy ) I started to get the twitch. I really enjoy the sport and hope to become as seriously involved as finances / time allow - I'm lucky, my wife has caught her own competition shooter disease as a bottom-feeder. I've joined a local pistol league (based on the USPSA rules) and I joyfully, yet ineptly, competed in an IDPA event last weekend.

At the moment I do not have the option to run out and buy a S&W 625. I have plans to do so, but these plans require me to scrimp & save for several months to do so (wife and I are both PhD students & adjunct profs). I also want to ensure this "bug" is permanently biting before I lay out $800+ for a gun.

However, the Model 28 is hardly an ideal revolver for USPSA (or even IDPA shooting - too heavy for minor and uncompetitive in major, and with the only readily available speed loaders being the HKS ones). This I recognize fully. It was however an ideal gun for what it was originally purchased for (home defence and shootin' on the line). Even worse, the cursed Model 28 has caused my love for revolvers, which originally was based solely on appearances, to deepen to an all out near monogamous commitment to the archaic beasts. (I do "cheat" on my gun while practicing as I want to become proficient with the semi-autos). I also do not wish to sell the Model 28 or get a moon clip conversion.

All the above is a wonderful story of course, but hardly a reason to post a thread on a message board. I do however have some questions...

1.) Should I get some minor gunsmith work done on the gun - cylinder chamfer & some trigger work. Explicitly legal in IDPA, but I cannot tell if cylinder chamfering is legal in USPSA from my reading of the rule book (or looking through archived posts on this board). Worth the money? Is it legal?

2.) Should I focus on local IDPA club events as an SSR (that do not care that my revo is .7 oz too heavy) and ignore USPSA until I buy a moon clip ready gun? Or should I say "screwdriver it" and shoot both USPSA & IDPA and start worrying about being competitive when I get a different gun (and have many more months - that will lead in years - of practice)? I would still do the USPSAish club league in any event.

3.) Assuming I shoot USPSA - should I shoot .38 Sp as a minor power level or shoot .357 as a major? I've experimented with both, and the .38 seems the better choice as a) they are shorter and easier to load and b ) "double tapping" speed is slower with the .357 I've not found any issues from a stamina PoV with the .357 but the costs seem to outweigh the benefits (this includes financially as well!).

If you have not noticed, I like brackets (really I do!) and I am sure this post is already exceeding the "willing to read it" length. Also, and perhaps most importantly, what questions should I be asking?

Edited March 14, 2009 by JasonL

[oneton]

if they dont mind just shoot the 28 with minor. for both then save up and get a k or l frame that has jet loaders. the 625 is nice but if your a buget shooter use what you have. till you find a good deal on a k or l frame. i have a guy in town who keeps finding these things for under 300. he has 5 k frames now. i see them on gun broker all the time. as for hks speedloaders i shoot with some people who can use them really good.

as for chamfering is uspsa its ok and its ok in idpa. i shoot both and icore a lot.

Jeremy Hardin

[johnnybravo]

Hello Jason,

Well, since you asked, here is my take on this.

First, shoot what you have, don't worry about what you don't have. Go to the IDPA or USPSA matches and shoot your 28 with speedloaders. What's going to happen is you will be exposed to more gun/ammo combinations and choices that the other competitors have. You will also gain practice and experience. You cannot get better without practice/experience.

Yes, 38 special will be cheaper and easier to shoot than 357. In the revolver world, major is overrated.

IF you are going to save for another gun, don't put money into your 28. It will become a never ending quest to build your current gun into something it is not: Another Gun.

Eventually, when you have the money saved and you do purchase a 625 or another moonclipped revolver, you will get more out of the transition from speedloaders to moonclips. You will APPRECIATE the transition, and I believe it will increase your skill level more than if you had started out revolver with moonclips.

If there's one thing to remember with revolver shooting it's this": Shoot smooth. Smooth is faster than you think.

Don't forget to practice dry firing,

John

Edited March 14, 2009 by johnnybravo

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Good info so far except:

With your budget, I would expect you will be shooting the 28 for a while so I would suggest a little trigger work to lighten it. Send me a PM with a mailing address and I will send you a few springs you can try yourself as a start.

Next, find a friend in Europe that can send you some SL Varient loaders for the 28 They are great and easy to reload between stages. They are usable in both games and ICORE too.

As far as the major/minor thing, get used to the 28 with the IDPA loads 7oz can be be removed from the gun somewhere to make it legal (grips, etc). Use the same loads for all you shoot and for USPSA shoot A's.

Best of luck

[JFlowers]

Jason,

I shoot a Model 27 (basically a Model 28 stripped for police sales) and there is not a thing wrong with the gun. You do not need a 625, though they are nice guns and the ideal for high speed competition.

First, get some old DADE or Safariland JN-1 Speedloaders. These are spring loaded speedloader for the Model 27/28 and are faster than the HKS models. This guy out of Florida has an inventory of the old Dades he is selling on EBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300299805096&ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX&refitem=300295928423&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=closed_view_item&refwidgettype=osi_widget&_trksid=p284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%252BP%252BIA%252BI%252BIA%26itu%3DIA%252BUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D4%26ps%3D41). I have bought from him and he is a good guy to do business with.

I am running Major using a 180-200 grain bullet in a 38 Special +p case. If you are going to run Minor, get some 38 Short Colt brass. The shorter brass makes for easier reloads. Assuming you are loading your own ammo.

You can spend a lot of money on gunsmiths - trigger and hammer jobs, moonclipping, etc. But I would advise you to just purchase and install a Wolf spring kit and polish everything. That will give you a nice trigger for little money.

After that, its just lots of practice, especially reloads. I made up a group of shells that have no powder and primers and do a two target, reload, two target, reload, two target, reload drill every day that I am home.

[johnnybravo]

Good info so far except:

With your budget, I would expect you will be shooting the 28 for a while so I would suggest a little trigger work to lighten it. Send me a PM with a mailing address and I will send you a few springs you can try yourself as a start.

Next, find a friend in Europe that can send you some SL Varient loaders for the 28 They are great and easy to reload between stages. They are usable in both games and ICORE too.

As far as the major/minor thing, get used to the 28 with the IDPA loads 7oz can be be removed from the gun somewhere to make it legal (grips, etc). Use the same loads for all you shoot and for USPSA shoot A's.

Best of luck

You are correct, Round Gun Shooter. It doesn't hurt to smooth out the action. I was just trying to caution Jason about spending GOBS of money on a gun he doesn't plan on shootng for forever and a day.

By the way, Jason, don't worry about the 28 being "too heavy". The weight does help absorb recoil, and makes it a more "shooter friendly" gun, so to speak.

If the 28 you have is relatively little used, it might still have a stiff action. One economical "Gunsmithing technique" to smooth out the action is to put a wee bit of oil inside, and dryfire the gun. Smoothly. This will help wear in the parts. After dry firing several thousand times, try putting in the spring(s) Round Gun Shooter sends you. If you are concerned about dropping the hammer on empty chambers, snap caps are relatively cheap.

Dry fire alternating strong and weak hand. You don't have to do it all in one session. The benefits of this are, a smoother action, and it will help improve your double action trigger control.

A side note: I have the Hogue brand finger groove gips on my 28. I prefer the fit over the wood grips.

John

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You are correct, Round Gun Shooter. It doesn't hurt to smooth out the action. I was just trying to caution Jason about spending GOBS of money on a gun he doesn't plan on shootng for forever and a day.

By the way, Jason, don't worry about the 28 being "too heavy". The weight does help absorb recoil, and makes it a more "shooter friendly" gun, so to speak.

If the 28 you have is relatively little used, it might still have a stiff action. One economical "Gunsmithing technique" to smooth out the action is to put a wee bit of oil inside, and dryfire the gun. Smoothly. This will help wear in the parts. After dry firing several thousand times, try putting in the spring(s) Round Gun Shooter sends you. If you are concerned about dropping the hammer on empty chambers, snap caps are relatively cheap.

Dry fire alternating strong and weak hand. You don't have to do it all in one session. The benefits of this are, a smoother action, and it will help improve your double action trigger control.

A side note: I have the Hogue brand finger groove gips on my 28. I prefer the fit over the wood grips.

John

Totally understand John but a couple things:

I think he was concerned about the rule book weight limit in IDPA and that his 28 may be overweight (Something revo shooters know a lot about, but that is for another thread )

As for the oil, I learned many years ago oil in the action of a revolver is a sure way to attract unburned powder and crap. S&W has always recommended only three drops of oil for the internals at specific locations. Allows them to run and run and run.

Best of luck Jason, revolvers are a great tool and will become an obsession. I bought my first in 1972 and have never lost the attraction.

Gary

[JasonL]

Thanks for all the great replies gang.

Yeah, the weight concern is based on the IDPA rule book which limits the weight of minor revos to an unloaded weight of 42 oz (according to the kitchen scale mine is 42.7 oz). Not a huge issue as the local clubs seem to just be happy to see a new wheelgunner.

johnnybravo: I do have snap caps, and I am doing dryfire drills (draws & sight aquiring). I also taped a dollar store laser pointer to a fabric strap that I slip on the end of the gun to see how much "wiggle" I am getting when I pull the trigger. I put that on, look at the wiggle, correct the wiggle, take it off and practice trigger pulls, put it back on and see how I am doing. It seems to help, or it may just be that my trigger finger is getting stronger.

JFlowers: thanks for the ebay links. Removing the "twist" from the HKS speedloader process will help. As a bit of theorygun: would I see more improvement spending $50 on these loaders or the same amount on the cylinder chamfer? Also, I am selling some surplus gym equipment (my garage looks like a Gold's gym, but all tucked into a 20'x15' area! I use it all, but I bang my shins too much anyway) and am getting some reloading equipment. Looks like I will be scrounging for primers with the rest of the world soon!

RoundGunShooter: wow. thanks. you are an ambassador to your sport!

oneton: thanks for clarifying the legalities in USPSA.

I'm glad I was referred to this forum!

Edited March 14, 2009 by JasonL

[RogerT]

Hi Jason.

Instead of sending away your gun for cylinder chamfering, you could consider doing it your self.

You don't need to make large bevels on the cylinders, just break the sharp edge of the charge holes with a small round file.

Be careful and go slow, you are not making an funnel of the cylinder, just remove the sharp edges.

It helps reloads a lot, even if the "chamfering" is not that visible.

And if you're not mechanically inclined, you may have a friend with work shop experience to do it for you. It's a half hour job, with the cleaning of the cylinder included.

You dont need to bring the whole gun, just the cylinder.

[Boats]

Sort of were you are revolver wise. Mostly shoot SSP with a plastic 9mm. However for fun at some matches I use a M28 with HKS speedloaders. My revolver is well worn and the action is about as slick as I could get. It's never going to make IDPA weight but our clubs matches we don't have a scale and we wink at Revolver rules in order to get more shooters. best it's 2 oz too heavy.

On the HKS take your last match results and figure out were you lost your time. Most people it's missed targets or draws. Then look at how many re-loads you did and give the HKS a "slow" factor. Perhaps 1 sec per load. My revolver shooting can account 4 or 5 seconds in a club match to the speedloaders and that's not worth switching. Many more seconds added due to "down" I think but don't know for sure the reliability factor for HKS loaders is pretty good. I never fumble a reload with them.

If you shoot club matches enough a good competitive revolver will come up. I got my 625 for 500 bucks. It's a better IDPA revolver than the M 28, but that old Highway Patrol model is still a lot of fun to shoot.

Boats

[SharonAnne9x23]

you can make 'snap caps' by loading bullets in primerless cases. Put a dab of white silicone caulk in the primer pocket. It cushions the firing pin and identifies practice 'dummies'. With speed loaders you will want about 30 'dummies' to use with speed loaders.

[revchuck]

Jason - Use the HKS loaders. While the SL Variant loaders are undoubtedly quicker, the cost and hassle aren't worth it at this stage of your development. I'd personally stay away from the Dade loaders; they're the only shooting equipment I've ever thrown away and not regretted, because they hold the rounds too loosely and can release them before you want to. The HKS are maybe a half-second slower than the Safarilands, and much easier to find.

Work on wearing out that M28. I've got a four incher myself, and it's a sweet gun.

[Blueridge]

I suggest that you use what you have until you get to a point that you can buy what you would prefer to use. There is nothing wrong with using what you have, no matter what division you have to use it in. Do your best with what you have, as anything that you learn now will transfer over any revolver that you get in the future. Most of it will transfer over to any handgun you use now or in the future.

I don't say this as a person that uses the revolver and equipment that the majority seems to like best, but as someone who enjoys using what he has and has stuck with it. I use a Ruger Alaskan (.45 Colt/.454 Casull) loaded with .45 Colt in competition. It weighs 43-44 ounces and as such places me in the ESR division. I use HKS speedloaders and have little problem manipulating them on stages. There are no other speedloaders that are reccomended for the Alskan, and I have not had the chance to try any that might work personally. I simply compete against whomever else is in my division and read the results at the end. Moonclips are a little faster for me to reload with in the 625 as compared with my Alaskan reloads, but that has not been a "deal breaker" to lead me to move to the 625. I participate in both IDPA and USPSA, so the majority of my competition uses moonclips with their revolvers.

Lately my accuracy has been up there with the top revolver shooters in competitions that I have participated in, and I am improving my speed as I get more experience.

I have a S&W 625 and equipment for it, but I prefer to use the Alaskan instead. Nothing is wrong with the 625, I just like the feel of the Ruger better.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Blueridge

[Cherryriver]

I've got to jump in just because it's a Model 28 item.

My first gun may have been a Colt 1911, but my second was a Highway Patrolman, way back 35 years ago. I wanted the biggest, heaviest thing I could shoot .38s out of. The $140.00 price was tolerable for a young carpenter, and much less than the Python I would have preferred.

The 28 is still here, but it's not wadcutters any more.

I keep hoping to find a way to compete with it, but the fact is that I know I'll get better scores in IDPA, where I normally shoot sixguns, with my 586 because of the speedloaders.

I recall the third or fourth match I ever went to, I decided to try the 28 instead of the .45. It was a monthly club Steel Challenge-style match. I had a handful of HKS #27 speedloaders and a couple of matching belt carriers. It wasn't pretty at all; I nearly gave up pistol competition right then and there. I left dozens of rounds on the ground and in the carrier by inadvertantly unscrewing the handle on the withdraw.

I've never used an HKS since, not even to charge the gun at Make Ready. It was years before I stumbled onto Safariland Comps and finally went back to trying to compete with speedloaders in IDPA.

That said, there's a gentleman in the northern Indiana region who makes Master using a 686 with HKS loaders and minor ammunition. The only time I've ever caught a whiff of his gunsmoke was a big ICORE match I shot with my Webley. The ranges were quite short, and he had an off-day, relatively speaking.

So, the limiting factor is obviously the operator and not the equipment.

I'm still pretty crazy about my old 28, though, and it's sure a pleasure to shoot. Using major loads does slow me down a little bit, but not as much as they do, for example, in my six-inch 686. Can't explain that.

I do have two of the old Comp Is for the 28, which is barely enough for an IDPA match, and I may try that, if only I can bank the competitiveness thing.

I have to mention, I salute you for even owning a handgun in the Dominion. That's got to be a dang difficult thing.

[Bones]

Welcome Jason.

The 28 is a great, big gun (notice the comma).

You've gotten some good advice so far.

I'm hoping the IDPA SSR weight issue wil be resolved soon. I wouldn't worry about it - especially at a local match.

Think about getting the cylinder cut for moonclips - it might make a positive difference in USPSA and ICORE (and IDPA ESR if you can stand the recoil) for you at a relatively low price point. It's not ideal, but it's closer.

Enjoy,

Craig

[pskys2]

I have a 6" M28 and it's a nice piece. I used it for the first couple of years of USPSA Revolver Division.

It is legal to Chamfer the Chambers in USPSA. Do so but be very careful with a .357 as too much can lead to a belted looking case with Magnums. Not good.

I used the HKS Speed loaders and never had a lot of issues, excepting once or twice I kind of twisted the knob as I pulled the Loader, kind of messy with rounds flying around.

I would recommend smoothing the action yourself, bending and adjusting the factory springs, and finally lightly chamfering the chambers. Then practice, practice, practice.

Oh and have fun!

Jerry's DVD on Action Jobs is good and I believe Kurtchausen's Books have info, there may be others too. Or you can look online and probably find some pretty detailed info on what to smooth and more importantly what NOT to mess with.

Someone else with IDPA experience might chime in, but you may be able to loose some of that .7 ounces by Carmonizing the Hammer (taking the spur off and reducing the mass of the hammer). Most all of us dedicated Action Revolver Competitors don't cock the hammers, ever. Even for long shots.

Edited March 18, 2009 by pskys2

[JasonL]

I salute you for even owning a handgun in the Dominion. That's got to be a dang difficult thing.

Pretty gun.

I'm a native of the Dominion of Canuckistan, but I'm in Texas now I thought my location showed in the side panel, guess I did not activate it. Sorry for any confusion to all. I'm a perm. resident of the USA now (married a Boston yankee girl for the free healthcare... er crap.. I knew I did that backwards!)

Thanks everyone for your responses. I'm currently digesting the contents of this thread.

Edited March 18, 2009 by JasonL

[Boats]

It MAY be possible to shave weight off that 28, I would look at the Grips, lots of difference in density of the various materials, rubber grips are pretty heavy. Some woods could be shaped into a nice grip and be light same time. Question I would have is trouble and cost to modify vs just buying another revolver. Good M 19's and 66's can be had between 400-500 dollars. Local shop has a 686 which is probably the optimal gun for 550.

Boats

[Cherryriver]

Indeed, the 586/686 is the better gun for action pistol.

It's better-balanced for fast shooting with nearly the same weight as the 28, but with much more of it way up front where it can do the most good.

The L-frame ergos are better for most of us, meaning anyone with less-than-large hands (and shorter finger lengths).

The X86 can be shot faster; the trigger stroke is shorter, and because the L cylinder is smaller in diameter and weighs less, it can be rotated, started and stopped, more quickly.

Vastly superior speedloaders, moonclipping, and rechambering options such as 9x23/.38 Super are easily available for the L.

It's currently available anywhere and enjoys enormous aftermarket.

So what? The Highway Patrolman beats any 686 for cool, for looks, and for fun.

So, I shoot a 686 (my only stainless gun) in PPC, a 586 in IDPA, and my Highway Patrolman any chance I get.

For a repository of extreme Highway Patrolman adulation, check out this Smith & Wesson Forum thread of some 16 pages and never-ending fanning: http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/...04/m/8621001072

[Crabbys44]

There has been a lot of good advice posted. Allow me to express my opinion.

Shoot what you have and put the money of the modifications towards ammo. Dry practice A LOT.

Instead of the laser pointer, which makes you focus on the dot on the wall instead of your front sight, try this:

Place a dime (or Canadian equivalent) on top of the front sight blade. Smoothly press the trigger to the rear. The goal is to be able to get a smooth trigger break without making the dime fall off. If that get too frustrating, try placing a fired piece of brass on the barrel just behind the front sight. It's easier, just not as effective.

IMHO as a new shooter, don't do any amateur gunsmithing (grinding, filing, bending springs, etc.) unless you want to bring your gun to a "professional" gunsmith to undo or replace whatever you just broke or lost.

SMOOTH = FAST

Relax and enjoy!