N320 - am I making a mistake?

[Alan Adamson]

As a point of reference see my original post http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80577

Am I making a mistake to even try these?

Gun - 4.5" barrel SA XDM 40

OAL - which I forgot on the original post 1.125 (at the time I loaded them was was provided as a SAAMI length, which I've since seen referenced as 1.125 - 1.135)

Crimp - basically none, I just took off the slight bell that I had from the powder funnel. probably something like .420-.421 now.

I loaded about 10 +/- with 180 Plated Rainier 180 TC bullets (basically a Lead bullet and was advised to use Lead data).

My rational was the Lapua website where it lists a 180 LTC (Lead Truncated Cone) with N320 and a range of 3.4 - 4.3

I simply needed a starting point and based upon some other references, this seemed like a good place to start.

However, now based upon some further reading on OAL and N320, I'm a little concerned.

Anyone care to offer an opinion? It's the OAL that has me concerned, and the nature of this powder... I could switch to TG, but everyone speaks so highly of this powder especially behind a plated bullet, I had some and figured I'd give it a try...but caution and no range time set in, now I don't know what to do...

Thanks in advance,

[al503]

Don't know much about the XDM but do you (or anyone) know how long you can load based on mag dimensions and possibly how much freebore you have?

[Alan Adamson]

Don't know much about the XDM but do you (or anyone) know how long you can load based on mag dimensions and possibly how much freebore you have?

unfortunately no to both... I've read that the mag will only allow to about 1.135... looking at it with a set of calipers with a 1.130 (some factory Georgia Arms 180gr TC) bullets in it, there is very little space available between the tip of the bullet and the front of the magazine, when pressing down slightly on the bullets/follower - eyeball says something like 1/64 - may 1/32, but it all depends on what angle the bullets are when the magazine is seated in the gun.

Darn, why does this all have to be so difficult... I suppose that's the black magic, voodoo, whatever you want to call it around developing loads for particular guns... With basically no crimp, I suppose I can always load long say to 1.15 or so and come down in .05 increments and see what feeds... Course all of this says that I'm not hitting the lands at that length. Only way to tell that is to set some long, and drop them in...

So what if I do the following.

a) take a brass and put primer, powder into it... I'll stay at the 4.0gr of N320 for now.

seat a bullet to 1.2 (a good long one) and don't crimp it

c) drop it into the gun and compare it to a regular 1.125-1.135 round to see if I'm hitting the lands. If so, repeat from with a slightly shorter crimp until I find where I'm not raising the round off the lands, then how much additional?

Second, once that length is determined, load up a handful and see if they will fit the magazine, if so, then I suppose I need to crimp these and go shoot them to make sure they feed and if not, go back to above and shorten them.

perhaps this is the only way to figure out some of these things on the XDM...

Is my process correct?

Alan

Edited March 10, 2009 by Alan Adamson

[carter300]

I have an XD when I load to 1.160-1.165 I have an issue with the Aftermarket High cap mags, about the 5-7 round starts to bind up and can't load no more. BUT with factory 10 round mag 1.165 is no problem at all. I have since back down the COL, just so it will load in all my mags.

My 2 cents on what to do, same as I did with my rifle, load to max mag COL(watch your powder charge) make 10 rounds of each and work your way down to SAAMI spec find out which one shoots better, if thats what your looking for.

Also what i have found, my Dillion SDB was set up at .423 crimp, I switch to MG 180 JHP. I was looking for a minor load, at 4.2 700x was nice but I wanted some less empf. So i made the crimp just a smiggin tighter, and dropped the powder charge and got same effects as with the 4.2 charge.

Thats what nice about reloading so many, many, many, many options to do, its endless, but at some point(usually when the wallet is near empty) you have to find a load you like and stick with it.

[Alan Adamson]

I have an XD when I load to 1.160-1.165 I have an issue with the Aftermarket High cap mags, about the 5-7 round starts to bind up and can't load no more. BUT with factory 10 round mag 1.165 is no problem at all. I have since back down the COL, just so it will load in all my mags.

My 2 cents on what to do, same as I did with my rifle, load to max mag COL(watch your powder charge) make 10 rounds of each and work your way down to SAAMI spec find out which one shoots better, if thats what your looking for.

Also what i have found, my Dillion SDB was set up at .423 crimp, I switch to MG 180 JHP. I was looking for a minor load, at 4.2 700x was nice but I wanted some less empf. So i made the crimp just a smiggin tighter, and dropped the powder charge and got same effects as with the 4.2 charge.

Thats what nice about reloading so many, many, many, many options to do, its endless, but at some point(usually when the wallet is near empty) you have to find a load you like and stick with it.

Good info, I think I'll work on my plan a little... I can always seat the non-crimped back a little further until I can figure out the "lands length" question. The mags are different in the xdm vs the xd, but the priciple is the same - you want whatever length to feed 100%

Thanks, this give me something to work with... I don't think I can cram all of this into the time I have before a match this weekend. so if I shot that it will be with factory ammo which I know works just fine ...

Thanks all.

Alan

[carter300]

How do you like that XDM, is the Accuracy there??

[Seth]

I won't comment on the load, but I spent a lot of time getting an N320 load together only to be stymied when it came time to buy more powder. I've been checking my dealers for 2 months and can't get powder. When I finally got close to running out, I made the change to Titegroup. Its dirty and not quite as pleasant to shoot, but I can buy 4# of it for the cost of 2# of Vit and its readily available.

[Alan Adamson]

How do you like that XDM, is the Accuracy there??

being the new kid on the block, I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment... However, I've done enough target shooting (NRA style), that it's every bit as good as some of the "target" guns I've shot. To be quite honest, I was pretty shocked at how good it is. I don't have the double tap thing down yet, but there is no doubt the gun is *way* better than I am...

One thing tho, after shooting lots of 1911's, the trigger quite frankly SUCKS!... but that's about to be remedied... Rich at Canyon Creek is fixing me up ...

beyond that, it's a very nice gun in 40 SW... and lost of production guys love it in 9mm. While the 40 is 16+1 from the factory, a new follower and spring and extended magazine remedies that to 21+1.... Just right for limited ...

Alan

[G-ManBart]

As a point of reference see my original post http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80577

Am I making a mistake to even try these?

Gun - 4.5" barrel SA XDM 40

OAL - which I forgot on the original post 1.125 (at the time I loaded them was was provided as a SAAMI length, which I've since seen referenced as 1.125 - 1.135)

Crimp - basically none, I just took off the slight bell that I had from the powder funnel. probably something like .420-.421 now.

I loaded about 10 +/- with 180 Plated Rainier 180 TC bullets (basically a Lead bullet and was advised to use Lead data).

My rational was the Lapua website where it lists a 180 LTC (Lead Truncated Cone) with N320 and a range of 3.4 - 4.3

I simply needed a starting point and based upon some other references, this seemed like a good place to start.

However, now based upon some further reading on OAL and N320, I'm a little concerned.

Anyone care to offer an opinion? It's the OAL that has me concerned, and the nature of this powder... I could switch to TG, but everyone speaks so highly of this powder especially behind a plated bullet, I had some and figured I'd give it a try...but caution and no range time set in, now I don't know what to do...

Thanks in advance,

What exactly are you concerned about? You're loading to very nearly the precise oal that VV recommends (they list 1.126 rather than 1.125...not enough to make any difference) and staying below their max.

The guide shows 4.3gr as a max and 4.0gr is 93% of that so you've dropped down a reasonable amount to start with.

The Sierra manual shows a max of 5.2gr of N320 with their 180gr JHP at 1.125" and a jacketed bullet will raise pressure compared with lead. Even though the two bullets aren't the same profile and will use slightly different case volumes, the're still showing .9gr higher with the same weight bullet and jacketed to boot so the chances that you're going to run into dangerous pressures are essentially zero. In fact they also list 5.0gr of N320 with a 190gr JHP....which is more proof that you should be well below max pressures.

[G-ManBart]

Also what i have found, my Dillion SDB was set up at .423 crimp, I switch to MG 180 JHP. I was looking for a minor load, at 4.2 700x was nice but I wanted some less empf. So i made the crimp just a smiggin tighter, and dropped the powder charge and got same effects as with the 4.2 charge.

Changing the crimp shouldn't change the pressure you get unless you're talking a bullet with a cannelure where you can really round the case mouth into the bullet.

In fact, neck tension (bullet pull) in .40 and other automatic cartridges (.45acp, 9mm etc) is determined by how they're resized, the thickness of the brass and the diameter of the bullet, not the crimp. There should already be so much neck tension that you can't push the bullet back into the case when pushing against your loading bench.....more crimp won't increase the neck tension unless you're literally to the point of digging into the bullet (which is bad). R,

[SA Friday]

G-man is right. To add to it, it's fairly easy to check for max OAL for the mag and the chamber by making dummy rounds (resized brass, seated bullet, no powder, no primer). make five dummy rounds really long, 1.170 then check the chamber and check the mag. If they go in both, then you know what you can get away with. If they only go in one of the two, then it's a no-go. Keep reseating the bullets at specified and measured lengths and checking the rounds in the chamber and mag until you get to where both are accepting the bullets. Once you have determined the max length you can load to, back of the dimension about .02 to .03 in length for reliability's sake and write down the data. Never load for that gun longer than that dimension.

Then reload some ammo and test fire for velocity, pressure signs, and accuracy. Some guns like a shorter OAL than you can get away with. Glocks are like this. They shoot better at a shorter length than I can get away with. Cool, I load a little shorter and fire. CZ's like really long bullets typically and seem to get the best accuracy and feeding with them. Cool, load long and watch to not get into disfunctional lengths.

The dummy test rounds will cost you less than a dollar, answer all your OAL questions, can be used in the mags during dry=fire practice, and will take you less than an hour.

OOps, forgot to add this. You should also make one of these dummy rounds at the OAL you finally decide on for your reloads. Write the OAL on the cartridge with a fine sharpie, and the gun too if you reload different rounds of the same caliber for different guns. Keep the round in your reloading tools and use it as a gauge to reset your seating die when necessary.

Edited March 10, 2009 by SA Friday

[Alan Adamson]

What exactly are you concerned about? You're loading to very nearly the precise oal that VV recommends (they list 1.126 rather than 1.125...not enough to make any difference) and staying below their max.

The guide shows 4.3gr as a max and 4.0gr is 93% of that so you've dropped down a reasonable amount to start with.

The Sierra manual shows a max of 5.2gr of N320 with their 180gr JHP at 1.125" and a jacketed bullet will raise pressure compared with lead. Even though the two bullets aren't the same profile and will use slightly different case volumes, the're still showing .9gr higher with the same weight bullet and jacketed to boot so the chances that you're going to run into dangerous pressures are essentially zero. In fact they also list 5.0gr of N320 with a 190gr JHP....which is more proof that you should be well below max pressures.

Thanks so much for the info... Yes, I knew most of what you mentioned, but got concerned when I saw a couple of posts that suggested any N320 with an OAL or 1.125 should be avoided at all costs. And then others where they were at 4+gr's, but with oals that started well beyond 1.125.

I think I'll try these, but will also figure out the max oal for chamber and magazine to have that information.

Thanks again all.

Alan

[G-ManBart]

P.S. Titegroup is slightly faster than N320 so it wouldn't lower pressures. R,

[-JQ-]

I won't comment on the load, but I spent a lot of time getting an N320 load together only to be stymied when it came time to buy more powder. I've been checking my dealers for 2 months and can't get powder. When I finally got close to running out, I made the change to Titegroup. Its dirty and not quite as pleasant to shoot, but I can buy 4# of it for the cost of 2# of Vit and its readily available.

I too worked up VV320 for my 45 and plan to use it for my 40 as well. Then it became tough to find. I just bought a 4lb keg so I'm good for a while but it has me thinking about another powder...

[Seth]

I went through 4# in about 3 months (5.2gr per ~ 1100 rounds per pound and I'm at about 1500 rounds per month) and kept looking for more and just couldn't find any locally. I figured when I got down to the last pound, I'd throw the parachute and try something different. That was last week.

The Vit is a WONDERFUL load. Extremely consistent, meters well, and feels great... all meaningless if you can't get the pow pow!

Edited March 10, 2009 by Seth

[Alan Adamson]

Ok, so I worked up some measurements on an XDM 40.

Here's what I found.

a) chamber length doesn't seem to be an issue... With Plated TC 180gr bullets, I can make a 1.186 not hit the lands, but still bottom the case out. Any more is probably too long - but it's a mute point because that won't fit the magazine.

On the magazine, I had to go to down 1.152 to make it so that just loading up a magazine and pushing out the bullets with my finger, didn't cause one to stick. Anything longer (tried a 1.158) and it would stick.

so, I guess I've figured out some of the magic for this gun...

More later.

Alan

[Alan Adamson]

As a follow up.

First, the 1.125, 4gr N320, with a Rainier 180 Plated FP worked just fine, no signs of over pressure, were significantly less recoil than the factory stuff I was shoot (shot back to back to compare).. In fact, I had a couple of primers where there was some debris that was on the seat when the primer was put in, this debris left some little marks and even those weren't flattened on these 4.0gr at 1.125 in an XDM 40.

Also, shot a couple of the loaded long (1.15), same charge, same bullet. I sent 3 of them down the magazine with some other factory stuff just to make sure they would traverse the mag without issue and so far so good.

Now I need to find/beg/borrow/buy a chrono and get some serious testing in...

Just figured I'd share what I found, at least for the XDM 40, N320 is just fine in the portions I've listed above. However I have no idea if they were minor or major PF...But at least I have a starting point.

Alan

[olp73]

As a follow up.

First, the 1.125, 4gr N320, with a Rainier 180 Plated FP worked just fine, no signs of over pressure, were significantly less recoil than the factory stuff I was shoot (shot back to back to compare).. In fact, I had a couple of primers where there was some debris that was on the seat when the primer was put in, this debris left some little marks and even those weren't flattened on these 4.0gr at 1.125 in an XDM 40.

Also, shot a couple of the loaded long (1.15), same charge, same bullet. I sent 3 of them down the magazine with some other factory stuff just to make sure they would traverse the mag without issue and so far so good.

Now I need to find/beg/borrow/buy a chrono and get some serious testing in...

Just figured I'd share what I found, at least for the XDM 40, N320 is just fine in the portions I've listed above. However I have no idea if they were minor or major PF...But at least I have a starting point.

Alan

Alan the load is safe!!! And it is NOT a major load. Don’t worry about it!!!!

………..but be advised. I have loaded some thousand “short” 40 rounds now and with the powder you mention. (n320) with the combination, heavy lead and short OAL the pressure is increasing fast at a certain point. I load mine to 1.15, about as long as I can go and between 4,2 and 4,5. There is quit a bit difference in the feel and already at 4.5 I see signs of pressure, even thou I think I can go a couple of tenth more.

The point is: just because 4.0 is fine doesn’t mean that you can increase half a grain. Take it slow…….

For minor try 3.5…..for a factor around 135 pf. Given everything else is the same.

[Alan Adamson]

Alan the load is safe!!! And it is NOT a major load. Don’t worry about it!!!!

………..but be advised. I have loaded some thousand “short” 40 rounds now and with the powder you mention. (n320) with the combination, heavy lead and short OAL the pressure is increasing fast at a certain point. I load mine to 1.15, about as long as I can go and between 4,2 and 4,5. There is quit a bit difference in the feel and already at 4.5 I see signs of pressure, even thou I think I can go a couple of tenth more.

The point is: just because 4.0 is fine doesn’t mean that you can increase half a grain. Take it slow…….

For minor try 3.5…..for a factor around 135 pf. Given everything else is the same.

Thanks much for the confirmation.

I loaded a 100 yesterday at the 4.0gr mark and adjusted the seating die for a nice round number of 1.145 ... Left everything else the same. Shot our Wed night match last night that way. Im really liking this setup. Just to make sure as I knew I didn't know the PF... I shot production.

At 4.0gr at 1.145 in an XDM it fed and cycled just fine. If I can go down to 3.5 and it still cycle, that would be a perfect production load I'm sure. Maybe I could even compete against those darn 9mm guys in production .

I'm really looking for 2 loads, an nice flat, soft production load in minor and a major load for limited. Some have suggested that you can leave the powder the same and just change the bullet to 155gr... I'll work up both combinations I suppose.

Thanks again!

Alan

[XDNut]

For those of you looking for N320 powder. Check this out. I just ordered 40 lbs last week and when I asked if at this price is there a limit and they said "no how many pallets would you like". Sounds like they have plenty in stock and at a better price than the 4lb bottles for the 1lb ones.

Rick

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/

Edited March 13, 2009 by XDNut

[G-ManBart]

For those of you looking for N320 powder. Check this out. I just ordered 40 lbs last week and when I asked if at this price is there a limit and they said "no how many pallets would you like". Sounds like they have plenty in stock and at a better price than the 4lb bottles for the 1lb ones.

Rick

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/

Yep, they initially had the price wrong, but I e-mailed them and they corrected it to the current price

[hdrules59]

For those of you looking for N320 powder. Check this out. I just ordered 40 lbs last week and when I asked if at this price is there a limit and they said "no how many pallets would you like". Sounds like they have plenty in stock and at a better price than the 4lb bottles for the 1lb ones.

Rick

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/

Yep, they initially had the price wrong, but I e-mailed them and they corrected it to the current price

Is this the correct price? N320 - 1lb- ON SALE!! $22.00 X 4 = $88 for 4# As of 7:25 AM Today

N320 - 4lb $110.12

[bbbean]

Cool. Now I think I have enough powder to get through the season.

[XDNut]

For those of you looking for N320 powder. Check this out. I just ordered 40 lbs last week and when I asked if at this price is there a limit and they said "no how many pallets would you like". Sounds like they have plenty in stock and at a better price than the 4lb bottles for the 1lb ones.

Rick

http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/

Yep, they initially had the price wrong, but I e-mailed them and they corrected it to the current price

Is this the correct price? N320 - 1lb- ON SALE!! $22.00 X 4 = $88 for 4# As of 7:25 AM Today

N320 - 4lb $110.12

It's correct. I ordered it last week at that price.

[38superman]

Alan,

I got to this thread a little late so it looks like all your questions have been answered.

Gman Bart is right (he usually is).

I load 5.1 of N320 with jacketed bullets at 1.175"

The OAL is shorter in your loads but the powder charge is reduced enough to compensate.

Granted, the profile of the bullet you are using might be slightly different but I would not be afraid of the loads you put together.

N320 is never a mistake.

It is an excellent powder for .40 caliber competition ammo.

The only time I wouldn't use it would be for a high velocity defense load.

For that I would choose something slower.

The only downside is price, and to lesser degree, availability.

Tls