PistolPete Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Here is the deal. I have the S&W 1911 with Novac sights. I want to change these out to a fiberoptic front sight and adjustable rear Bo-Mar sight. The question I have is looking at other 1911's with Bo-Mar sights I would need to mill out the rear of my slide. Does anyone make a Bo-mar style sight that will fit in the existing location? I'm looking to do this ASAP but I don't want to have to mill out my slide. Also, since I'm on it what would be the best Fiber-optic front sight to go with? I want a red sight because my open gun has a red-dot on it so I want some consistency. Thanks in advance, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 On the rear, to install a Bo-Mar you have two choices: 1. Weld-up the dovetail and have the slide remilled for the Bo-Mar dovetail; or 2. Have the slide milled flat in that area, then have the flat-bottomed Bo-Mar silver soldered to the slide. Novak makes an adjustable rear sight, but I understand it requires a different dovetail. Given that, it may be easier to do that sort of retrofit. Another option is an MMC adjustable. They will slide right into the Novak cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 How is the MMC sight? Does it have the same style blade as the Bo-Mar? If that is the case that will prob. be the winner for me. Have you ever used this setup before? Thanks again, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Oh, it's nothing like the Bo-Mar. It's more like the Novak, but you can adjust the blade for elevation (you move the whole sight to adjust for windage). I only threw that out in case you just wanted some adjustability for different loads, but were willing to live without the superior Bo-Mar sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 PPete Go ahead and bite the bullet and mill the slide and put on the BoMars. You'll like them. It just amazes me that people who plan to shoot competition, any kind, would knowingly buy a pistol with fixed sights. The very first time they change bullet weights or for that matter perhaps a different brand of ammo, the gun shoots to a different point of aim. After you are on the line, and the command LAMR has been given, trying to remember if the POI is 4 or 7 inches low at 20 yds, can't be a good thing. When will the manufacturers stop trying to save pennies and put on some quality adjustable sights, set low into the slide...I guess when the people who buy pistols stop buying pistols 'cause they have inferior fixed sights. Probably no other explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsonm1 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 "Go ahead and bite the bullet and mill the slide and put on the BoMars. You'll like them." Totally agree! Except he'll have to have the old slot welded and then recut. Might consider putting on Novak adjustable sight or replacing the slide. "It just amazes me that people who plan to shoot competition, any kind, would knowingly buy a pistol with fixed sights." Totally Disagree...most competitors have their pistol setup for one load and rarely make changes. I've shot USPSA and IDPA matches for over 10 years. I have changed loads once since I started shooting and setup all my pistols shoot the same 200 gr. bullet and Clays powder load since I found it. Most people just don't take the time to sight their pistols in properly and if fixed sights had no appeal, people like Wayne Novak would be broke by now instead of having sold over 1 million sights! Fixed sights have the best durability. "The very first time they change bullet weights or for that matter perhaps a different brand of ammo, the gun shoots to a different point of aim." See above. "After you are on the line, and the command LAMR has been given, trying to remember if the POI is 4 or 7 inches low at 20 yds, can't be a good thing." No "good" competitive shooter I know does this. Maybe the newbie who just showed up and had no idea where the pistol printed. If I don't know where a pistol is shooting, it stays in the safe until I have time to go to the range and properly sighted in. Most gunsmiths have you send along a few loaded rounds to sight your gun in when you have sights installed. "When will the manufacturers stop trying to save pennies and put on some quality adjustable sights, set low into the slide...I guess when the people who buy pistols stop buying pistols 'cause they have inferior fixed sights. " If a manufacturer can install a set of quality fixed sights (cost of sights, machining, etc) for $100 (10000 pennies) less than adjustables, then they will sell more guns, which will meet the needs of 80% of the shooters. Ajustable sights are nice (and I have both fixed and adjustables), but I have had my a$$ kicked in matches by guys using "inferior" fixed sights. Remember, it's not the gun, it's the driver. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Pete, Is there something wrong with the Novak sights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 When you are old and crusty you can go with fixed sights (or no sights) Until then, Bomars work well unless you are known as "the breaker of sights." The Garcia front sight is good as well as the Dawson, I think the .09 is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 parsonm1 As a fixed sight shooter, I'm sure you are familiar with "Kentucky Windage". I didn't know the term till I tried to shoot a match with a borrowed gun with fixed sights. Also, you statement about 'smiths having you send along a few loaded rounds to sight in the pistol with your ammo is fine, except on one can sight in your pistol or rifle for you, you have to do it yourself. It might be close, but you know what they say about close...horseshoes/hand granades... If you didn't know where it printed it would stay in the safe till you got it sighted in... Question, if it has fixed sights and shoots left or right you can drift the rear to where it needs to be, and if it shoots high you can reduce the front sight till it is correct, but what do you do if it shoots 6 or 7 inches low and has fixed sights? Do you have a taller front sight put on, and then file it down till correct? For ME, it is easier to install an adjustable sight. As far as getting whipped by someone who shoots fixed sights, sure it can and has happened, but how many GM shooters do you see at USPSA matches who are shooting a 1911 platform with fixed sights? Why don't dot sights come without adjustment , sighted in for 25 yds? How many L10 guns do you see for sale that have fixed sights on them? Browse the gallery topic on this forum and see how many COMPETITION pistols being made by a whole host of 'smiths have fixed sights...I can't recall any at all. On a battle pistol, fixed sights are the way to go, on a competition pistol, I think you are better off with adj., sights. I'm sure Wayne Novak is grateful everyday that everyone who buys a pistol doesn't want adjustable sights. Also his sights and those by Heinie are super looking, well made , rugged beyond belief and have carved out a place for themselves in the market. I applaud them. If PPete is looking for adjustable sights, my advice is to weld up the hole and remachine for BoMars. Save the fixed sight which comes off the pistol, and when you have 100 of them, put them into a tomato can and you can hold down one end of a trot line with them. My .02 worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsonm1 Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 "As a fixed sight shooter, I'm sure you are familiar with "Kentucky Windage". I didn't know the term till I tried to shoot a match with a borrowed gun with fixed sights." Unless you had time to sight the gun in minutes before the match, fixed or adj., you would still have to use KW. "you have to do it yourself. It might be close, but you know what they say about close...horseshoes/hand granades..." True, but with most shooters would be close (within an inch or two unless your eyes are really off). And with most matches under 20 yards, close enough. " if it has fixed sights and shoots left or right you can drift the rear to where it needs to be, and if it shoots high you can reduce the front sight till it is correct, but what do you do if it shoots 6 or 7 inches low and has fixed sights? Do you have a taller front sight put on, and then file it down till correct? For ME, it is easier to install an adjustable sight." Actually you have that backwards (if it shoots low, shorten the sight), but I got the point. I just replaced the sights on my Edge (adj.) and still had to re-replace the front sight (too tall). I admit adjustable is easier, I am just saying that if you don't experiment with loads every week (which most shooters don't), fixed sights are just as accurate, more durable and cost half as much. Spend the extra money on ammo and practice! "how many GM shooters do you see at USPSA matches who are shooting a 1911 platform with fixed sights? Why don't dot sights come without adjustment , sighted in for 25 yds? How many L10 guns do you see for sale that have fixed sights on them? Browse the gallery topic on this forum and see how many COMPETITION pistols being made by a whole host of 'smiths have fixed sights...I can't recall any at all." Apples and oranges. GM's will experiment more than the average or above average shooter with loads, guns and other equipment. But they are in a class that requires a different level of equipment. And most of the guns the great smiths are building will shoot WAAAAAY better than most of the guys that are shooting them. You can only buy som much of an advantage and then it comes back down to talent of the shooter. I am sure Brian, Todd or TGO could whip most of use pretty severely using a gun with NO sights. All I am saying is that 90% of competition shooters would be well served by a set of fixed sights. If everybody wanted or needed adjustable sights, fixed sights would fade away, but don't categorize all shooters in with the GMs because their needs are different. If you aren't a GM or M, spend more time practicing with your fixed sight gun and less time fretting over a lack of adjustable sights. "If PPete is looking for adjustable sights, my advice is to weld up the hole and remachine for BoMars. Save the fixed sight which comes off the pistol, and when you have 100 of them, put them into a tomato can and you can hold down one end of a trot line with them." Sure, go for the Bomars. I don't have a problem with that, but don't pin all confidence and accomplishments on having adj. sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 If you decide not to weld/remill the slide, the MMC is a durable rear sight. I had them on 3 HK Usp's in .45, .40 , and 9mm. I shot the .45 and 9mm a lot and they always held zero. They have a good amount of evelation adjustment, but windage you have to slide the sight and set it in the right spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted September 2, 2003 Author Share Posted September 2, 2003 What I'm looking for more than the ability to adjust the sights is just a better sight picture. I really love the way the Bo-Mar sights in. With the Novacs I have the rear sight leave a lot to be desired (for me) as there are too many different angles going on. Using the Bo-mars I've noticed it is much easier to focus in on the front sight. I'm speakiing from personal experience so please don't harp on me. The Novacs are not a bad sight by any means but I know I can shoot faster and more accurately with the Novac style rear. Trader how is the sight picture with the MMC's? I want something that is really boxy with a flat cutout for quick sight alignment. I'm not overly concearned with adjusting my sights as I will be shooting the same loads 97% of the time. Thanks for everyones advice, Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 parsonm1 Have you read the Book? Are you familiar with the idea of "aim small, miss small"? I know the vital part of a average deer is 10" in diameter, but if my gun only does 5"@100 my wiggle room is only 2.5 minutes of angle. Not very confidence inspiring. However, my .300 will do .25" at 100, about 4.5 minutes of wiggle room, big boost to the confidence. Same with pistols, especially competition pistols. At the 1982 US Natl's we shot a stage with the stop plate 6x6" at 25 yds. If your pistol only does 2" at 15 or 20 yds, could be tough on you. You are correct, I did have the front sight adjmt backwards...typing faster than brain works. I don't think only M and GM shooters benefit from having the BEST gear avaliable. When I was a 1st yr IPSC shooter, (no classes back then), If I got beaten by the best guy there and I shot the same gear he did; he beat me on ability. If he had better gear than I did, he beat me with a combination of the two. Why not eliminate every advantage you can as you improve. If you have the best and can't shoot like the big dogs, it IS you. Then shut up till you can run with the big guys. Hey, I know Tommy Campbell won his 1st IPSC match with a stock 1911 he took out of a Reserve Armory, but I don't think Fowler or Dalton or Seyfried were at that match. How are the needs of any M or GM shooter different that the needs of the lowest class shooter at the match? I speak only for myself, but my requirements as a pistol shooter, concerning equipment, are more than TGO or The Burner or Todd. I need better gear than they do to help level the playing field, not the same or gear that is inferior to theirs. My 'smith charges $160 to provide and low mount Bo Mars on a 1911. that is about 5% of the cost of a full out L10 gun. When I'm spending 3200 for a pistol, I ought to be able to keep myself in ammo, AND enjoy the confidence of adjustable sights. I don't know about you, but I would take a bet on beating TGO or anyone else if they shot w/o any sights at all, even at my age, if it wasn't a hose course at 4 yds. I don't know if I will live long enought to fill up my tomato can, but I have 7 now and am still saving... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 Heinie fixed sights have a sight picture nearly the same as Bomars. The old style are slanted backwards like Bomars, and the new style ("Slant Pro" or something like that) are slanted a little bit forwards. FWIW, I will most likely have fixed sights put on my Limited gun when I get it built. I'm tired of having adjustable sights break or worrying about if they have come out of adjustment. -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 TL, Why would anybody change their load? Once you find something that works, don't you stick with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Flex Some of us have to use the same pistol for steel that we do for regular matches. Also, I still know shooters who do not load the same load for practice that they shoot in matches... I also shoot a modified 2700 course of fire to keep my hand in, and it isn't the same load as either IDPA or IPSC, and I shoot the same gun for that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Pistol Pete: The MMC sight blade is protected by wings on each side of the blade. You may not care for that" picture". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsonm1 Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 TL, "If your pistol only does 2" at 15 or 20 yds, could be tough on you." This doesn't matter whether the sights are fixed or adj. 2 inches is 2 inches. "I don't think only M and GM shooters benefit from having the BEST gear avaliable." I agree. I am just saying that alot of shooters can't shoot up to the level that their guns are capable of and buying a better gun may help you do a little better, but there are limits as to how much score you can buy. Then it comes back to shooter ability. "How are the needs of any M or GM shooter different that the needs of the lowest class shooter at the match?" Basics, maybe. Good trigger, clear sights, a sighted in gun, ammo that works 100% of the time. But most lower class shooters aren't going to be able to take full advantage of the $5k wonder guns. If technique is not as good, equipment won't contribute as much. "When I'm spending 3200 for a pistol, I ought to be able to keep myself in ammo, AND enjoy the confidence of adjustable sights." I thnk most lower class shooters would do better to buy a $1500 and spend $1700 on a Dillon and lots of components to practice with. Quick example...a B shooter in one of my clubs wanted a hi-cap pistol in the worst way because he thought he couldn't be competitive with the guys in A class (we shoot A, B, C, D, S, L) with a single stack. So, I told him if he could consistently shoot 80% or better, I would sell him one of mine (P-14 with Novaks, 3/4" at 20 yds). He practiced and did it, so I sold it to him. He practiced and shot the next match with it. His score improved slightly (1-2%), but when I told him I shot a single stack with 8 rd. mags that day (and beat him), he realized it's mostly the shooter, not the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 parsonm1 Well, it is good to stick to your sights, I mean guns. You can support Novak and I will do my part for BoMar. I have always said it is the indian and not the arrow, but even the best indian can't do well with 2nd rate arrows. If a 1500 buck gun and 1700 worth of ammo is good, does it stand to reason that a 3200 buck gun and 1700 worth of ammo is better? I think so. It is shooter ability, but to get a true measure of that ability and to measure your progress against the Best, it needs to be apples to apples. I would hate to be a B shooter who had a great day and finished 2nd HOA, and drove home thinking; what might have happened if he had the same tricked out gear as the guy who won HOA. I understand your point completely. I'll give you a good example of it. In 1979, I shot with a guy who had all the talent in the world, but poor boy'ed his gear to the extent that he tought it was foolish to spend that kind of money. I have seen him get out of the truck search through his tool box for some magazines, take them out and knock off the rust with a wire brush, hose them with some oil and win the match, while my other two buds and I finished in the top 7 with our gear which was the best $$ could buy. His talent carried him for 7 months, then guess who got in line for all the tricked out gear after he stopped winning. Took him 4 more months to get up to speed with his new gun. The rest of us were winning that whole time. Cost him a slot to the Natl's. If you start with the best, you don't have to look back and wonder, what if... That's what makes this forum great, we can agree to disagree, and both go away with a win/win situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Smith Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Let's assume you can get the same sight picture with either fixed or adjustable sights -- the Heinie is the same shape as the adjustable Bomar. Is the argument against fixed sights, then, that you might want to change loads which would change the POI? -z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Zak Without going thru the entire conversation, yes. IMO fixed sights are, strong like bull but not pretty like heifer. IF you want to change loads, or just have the option of adjusting your sights, for whatever reason, adjustable sights are where it's at. Unlike some folks on this forum, I have shot 1911's over 1 million rounds with BoMar sights and NEVER had a problem. So IMO, I think they hold up just as well as fixed sights do. If I wanted to teach my granddaughter to shoot my 1911, I certainly wouldn't take her out with full house 230gr loads. maybe some 185's with 3.6 gr of Bullseye. Nothing amps up a kid more than hitting what they aim at and nothing gets them down like missing. I have that option. Get the drift. Parsonm1 and I got off on a tangent about M and GM shooters needing different kinds of gear etc., but the above is the bottom line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Springfield Armory is now selling an adjustable rear sight that fits the Novak dovetail. I think it's made by PSI and the web site lists it for $49. It doesn't have as large a rear blade as a Bo-Mar, but it is a similar style. I don't know how rugged it is, though! http://www.springfield-armory.com/shop/?pa...824e59acc1fc077 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted September 9, 2003 Author Share Posted September 9, 2003 I think that would be the winner. Do you know if it will fit with the SW1911? I've read somewhere that the Novac used on this gun has a different slide cut. Anyone know if this is true? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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