LaRue Tactical Multi-Gun

[Wakal]

I will be there anyway, because I like the Waco guys and I would rather shoot than not, even under strange rules. As a world-wide "practical" shooter of going on 19 years experience, I know that the A-zone is where most of my targets are wearing their plates (or their stacked magazines) and so would rather zip a few C shots now and then. So far, that theory has worked for me just fine, as had the theory that fast hits somewhere on the target are better than slow center punched hits (laughs)

However, if this match is going from the "zero second penalty for two hits anywhere on paper" to this new "two hits to avoid a failure to nutralize, but every C adds two second and every D adds four seconds," then Fred wants his money back. FWIW, the Corpus carbine match was two hits, with C worth .5 extra and D worth 1 extra (if memory serves). Not "International" scoring, but not that bad. Two and four second penalties are a bit excessive.

Alex

[HiCapMag]

Well, we could shoot paper plates and not keep score, and I'm there

Sorry to pile on with the questions but I need a rule claification....thats what happens with us gamers

Rule 6.3.5 prohibits support devices on the rifle, such as "bipods, etc" -- is a coupled magazine such as an Arrendondo setup ok, as that is usually what I run. In a prone position the mags would, of course, touch the ground and be used as support, just like a single mag does, but I think at least one match has dissalowed this.

Thanks and looking forward to it!

[M ammo]

Scoring,,

Our Club uses IDPA scoring,, for 3 Gun,,,,, , this is close enough,, same.. Same not a hosier match. as you might using IMG rules.

No big deal. Just as long as you know the rules and how to change your shooting style strategy, to fit the rules.

Jim M ammo

Edited March 1, 2009 by M ammo

[AlamoShooter]

Scoring,,

Our Club uses IDPA scoring,, for 3 Gun,,,,, , this is close enough,, same.. Same not a hosier match. as you might using IMG rules.

No big deal. Just as long as you know the rules and how to change your shooting style strategy, to fit the rules.

Jim M ammo

Yep good way to look at it. I figured we could just think of it as a hostage rescue match. (enter puffed up chest here) the bad guys could set off a grenade if you just nick them and the No Shoots are Sports Illustrated swimsuit girls. So if you Even scratched one of them, your buddies would Whack you. 30 seconds

Still sounds like fun

But I would like name tags for the no shoots we could hire a Ninja to sneak in with a magic marker and put name each one.

April, Betty, Cindy, Donna, Ellen, Francis, Gloria, Heather..........

Heck I'm having fun allready

[vsound]

Of course if you read the scoring carefully, it says "MINUS 2" for C and "MINUS 4" for D. So does that mean a C or D hit will actually reduce my overall time? If so, that'll be awesome! I can rack up D's all day long.

[AlamoShooter]

Of course if you read the scoring carefully, it says "MINUS 2" for C and "MINUS 4" for D. So does that mean a C or D hit will actually reduce my overall time? If so, that'll be awesome! I can rack up D's all day long.

thats sharp , I want to be on your squad

If you look at post #189 on this thread he gives a link to the updated rules and score and he spell it out in red print as 2 seconds 4 seconds and 30 second no shoot

Edited March 3, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[Larry White]

Are we talking about points or sec.'s on the 2 down or 4 down. Tell me if I shoot a C & and an D , I'm not 6 seconds down on one target.

[Mike P]

Of course if you read the scoring carefully, it says "MINUS 2" for C and "MINUS 4" for D. So does that mean a C or D hit will actually reduce my overall time? If so, that'll be awesome! I can rack up D's all day long.

thats sharp , I want to be on your squad

Not sure, but I think the minus 2 and minus 4 means points, with point value measured in time added to overall time simlar to IDPA scoring, only a little less forgiving.

Could be wrong though, it may be in seconds added. Either way it'll be a hoot.

Mike

[benny hill]

Just figuring if I want to bring my 1x4 for hoseing or my 3x9 for points.

[Wakal]

Greg answered my PM...

Greg,

Fred and I are confused by this:

A/B – 0, C – minus 2, D – minus 4

This means that a A or B hit is worth 0 seconds to your time, but...a C hit adds 2 seconds and a D hit adds four seconds? So...if you had two D hits on paper, you would be a plus eight seconds?

Are we reading this wrong? If our take on this scoring is correct, please provide a means to withdraw an application with a full refund, as this late rule change is not conducive with the concept of practical shooting. I will probably show up anyway, but Fred is not interested in playing under that sort of draconian system.

Thanks,

Alex

You are correct.

Contact Austin at austin@laruetactical.com and he will refund your match fee.

Greg

So to carry this out further...this means that a "A/D" is worth plus FOUR seconds, while a "A/miss" is worth plus FIVE seconds.

Better bring the 3-9, Benny, because the only "tactical" in this match is the one in LaRue's business name

Alex

[Mike P]

Greg answered my PM...

Greg,

Fred and I are confused by this:

A/B – 0, C – minus 2, D – minus 4

This means that a A or B hit is worth 0 seconds to your time, but...a C hit adds 2 seconds and a D hit adds four seconds? So...if you had two D hits on paper, you would be a plus eight seconds?

Are we reading this wrong? If our take on this scoring is correct, please provide a means to withdraw an application with a full refund, as this late rule change is not conducive with the concept of practical shooting. I will probably show up anyway, but Fred is not interested in playing under that sort of draconian system.

Thanks,

Alex

You are correct.

Contact Austin at austin@laruetactical.com and he will refund your match fee.

Greg

So to carry this out further...this means that a "A/D" is worth plus FOUR seconds, while a "A/miss" is worth plus FIVE seconds.

Better bring the 3-9, Benny, because the only "tactical" in this match is the one in LaRue's business name

Alex

Well I guess that's what I get for thinking, eh?

Thanks for the clarification, it may make a difference in how practice goes.

Mike

[mike4045]

You can give up alot of speed, if you can shoot clean.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Greg answered my PM...

Greg,

Fred and I are confused by this:

A/B – 0, C – minus 2, D – minus 4

This means that a A or B hit is worth 0 seconds to your time, but...a C hit adds 2 seconds and a D hit adds four seconds? So...if you had two D hits on paper, you would be a plus eight seconds?

Are we reading this wrong? If our take on this scoring is correct, please provide a means to withdraw an application with a full refund, as this late rule change is not conducive with the concept of practical shooting. I will probably show up anyway, but Fred is not interested in playing under that sort of draconian system.

Thanks,

Alex

You are correct.

Contact Austin at austin@laruetactical.com and he will refund your match fee.

Greg

So to carry this out further...this means that a "A/D" is worth plus FOUR seconds, while a "A/miss" is worth plus FIVE seconds.

Better bring the 3-9, Benny, because the only "tactical" in this match is the one in LaRue's business name

Alex

So. . . . . . . this is now a Bullseye match instead of a Run-N-Gun Multi-Gun Match. I can feel my Interest level dropping like the Stock Market!

I may contact Greg and request a refund and shoot DTC instead - gotta think it over - Shit!!

[benny hill]

If it is scored as above, it will be mine & others from here's last time to shoot it also. Use multi-gun , Horner or uspsa scoreing. Don't care for a A zone only bullseye match.

[AlamoShooter]

Scoring> I am going to pull out my Swiss Flag on this one. But I do know OK I don't 'Know' but I was told that a medic has a harder time dealing with 6 shots more than 1 or two shots.

Proposed Neutral ground on scoring paper targets

Why Why Only count 2 best hits?

Why only count 2 best hits? Do the extra shots into a no shoot count? Is only 2 penalties on the no shoot count as 60 seconds?

OR! can the shooter get 120 seconds in penalties for 4 hits on the same no shoot?

1 A hit and 2 C hits = no time added

1 A hit and 3 D hits = no time added

4 C hits no time added

6 D Hits no time added

2 C + 3 D =NTA= No Time Added (2 C = 1 A) ( 3 D = 1 A) (2 D = 1 C)

This could be a great test of Hose And Go -V- Center Punch

This is getting Fun

(Edit to add Ro know to count total hits on a target first) And I have scores many targets with more than 2 hits = it takes 3 seconds longer to score a target with 6 hits than just 2

If a shooter shot only D's on a 30 round stage it would take 45 seconds longer to score the 15 target stage per shooter.

Edited March 3, 2009 by AlamoShooter

[Wakal]

Just an idea...lets try these rules, like back in the long-long ago, in the before time...

9.1 Scoring per stage will be straight time plus penalties. Maximum time allowed to shoot any stage is 180 seconds.

9.1.1 Any IPSC cardboard target, designated as a “shoot” target must have either one (1) “A” hit OR two (2) hits anywhere inside the scoring perforations on the target (i.e. minimum 2 “D” hits) to avoid a penalty.

9.1.2 Example of scoring and penalties on paper targets:

a. One “A” zone hit = no penalty

b. Two hits in any combination “B, C or D” = no penalty

c. Target not neutralized but target was engaged = 10 second penalty

d. Target Not Engaged (TNE)= 10 second penalty for not making the minimum two hits anywhere on the target plus 5 seconds, per target, for the TNE PROCEDURAL for a total penalty of 15 seconds per target added to time.

9.1.3 Paper targets used in the match may be IPSC (old style), the new IPSC “Classic”, SOF, or IDPA Targets

9.1.4 Designated “No Shoot” targets that are hit will incur a 5 second penalty for each hit.

9.1.5 Knock down style targets (i.e. poppers or steel) must fall to score.

9.1.6 Frangible targets must break to score. (One BB hole is a break.)

9.1.7 Swinging style rifle targets must be struck solid enough to cause the hidden “flash card” to be visible to the R.O. R.O. may call hits.

9.1.8 Failure to engage a frangible, knock down or swinging style target will result in a 15-second penalty. (10 sec. for not making the hit and 5 sec. TNE.)

9.1.9 Engaging a frangible, knock-down or swinging style target but not breaking it, knocking it down or causing the target to react will result in a 10 second penalty per target.

9.1.10 Procedural penalties, 5 seconds per shot, may be assessed for failing to follow the stage directions as written in the stage description.

9.1.11 Procedural penalties, 5 seconds, may be assessed for failing to follow stage procedures.

9.1.12 Stage Not Fired (SNF/DNF) penalty, 300 seconds per stage not fired.

9.1.13 Maximum penalty time for any stage (including target penalties) is 300 seconds.

9.2 Stage Points

9.2.1 First Place (lowest time) for each stage, in each class, will receive 100 points; Second Place and below will figure points on a percentage basis of the 100 from 1st Place.

9.2.2 Rifle stages will score Tactical Iron sighted and Tactical Scoped rifles separately. Non-rifle stages will have all Tactical Class shooters competing together.

9.2.3 Total points accumulated for all stages will determine the match placement by class.

9.2.4 Ties will be broken by an undisclosed Tie Breaker Stage designated by the Range Master.

9.2.5 Highest score wins.

[AlamoShooter]

well Its about like that just x 2 Seams like if it taste that bad I just mite be good for us?

I don't know enoph to know better about 3 gun

I like that I am so new to 3 gun that I don't know what I should not like.

[mike4045]

++++ Benny

You know I am not a bullseye shooter. Preparations have already been made this year.

[bigbrowndog]

It would be nice if this match had a good showing, because it would be nice if Texas had a MAJOR multigun event. LaRue Tactical is a good supporter of the sport and those that have to engage targets in anger.

It would be a shame if petty little things kept this from happening, but it seems both sides will have to compromise, kinda like that BiPartisan participation we keep hearing about in DC???????????

Radical changes from the norm are often met with apprehension, and many radical changes are often met with a lack of participation. It would be sad to see a supporter and match have a bad showing especially in these uneasy times, Competitors pick a match and go, the option COULD be that next year you have NO match to go to.

LaRue supports many matches, including mine, and I wholeheartedly appreciate them for this. I seem to recall a match on the east coast that had its growing pains and problems, and this last year it filled up in a couple of seconds?????????????????

So you never know how things will turn out, after time.

Trapr Swonson

Match Director

High Plains Shotgun Challenge

[SGDM]

Hey Fellas,

Stirred the pot on this one eh.

This is not a practical match, it is a tactical match. Providing a challenging course of fire, the fastest shooter with the least penalties wins.

I am still working the penalties and will post when I make a decision but it won't be a whole lot of difference. My intent is to provide the shooter with a course of fire that will challenge you, I have always been taught to reward the accurate shooter with the fastest time.

I did not come up with this over night, it has been a long process as a whole. The targets are new, NRA TPC. The "0" scoring area is larger than other targets and was developed for the NRA by a doctor. Yes sir, we are entering yet another new system for competitive shooting and will endure some growing pains. I am by all means not an expert but will guarantee a good time and you will learn something.

Feedback is good, both negative and positive. I'm not one to follow, I lead. Just trying to figure out a rewarding system for the masses. I will skin this Cat with some help, I can't please eveyone, it is impossible. So...come shoot, do yer best and have fun.

I will post pictures and dimensions of the targets when I get 'em.

This is America and I saw to it that you have the freedom of choice.

More to follow.

Adios

Greg

[AlamoShooter]

Something strange when the Brown Dog is the voice of reason

[Wakal]

This is not a practical match, it is a tactical match.

This isn't a tactical match, this is a bullseye match with a free-flow firing line

Two fast shots in the pelvis should be cause for a beer run (well, not for the guy with the perforated pelvis ), not eight seconds in penalties when MISSING gets ten seconds

Alex

Edited March 3, 2009 by Wakal

[bigbrowndog]

I have my moments.

trapr

[TXMXRACER]

This is not a practical match, it is a tactical match.

This isn't a tactical match, this is a bullseye match with a free-flow firing line

Two fast shots in the pelvis should be cause for a beer run (well, not for the guy with the perforated pelvis ), not ten seconds in penalties

Just aim higher and you wont have to worry.

Alex

[HiCapMag]

Just to toss something out there....some other clubs use the pure time measurement of performance, but ding you a half second for a C and a full second for a D. That is enough, but not too much IMHO.

Carry on.