Accurate rifle shooting instruction

[ken hebert]

If you were in the market to take a class to improve your long range skills, what type of curriculum would a person look for? As in: who puts on a good class and what a person can expect to learn, and more importantly use.

Ken

[Anon]

Define "long range", as it pertains to what you are looking for. And, is speed of follow-up shots a requirement for you?

Trying to get a sense of whether you are looking for sniper, varmit, long-range-match, hunting, or practical rifle skills.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Anon

[dsb45acp]

I've heard good things about Tac Pro up around DFW area and Rifles Only in south Tx. No direct experience, just words of mouth.

[smokshwn]

Ken,

If you are looking for shooting a precision rifle in a tactical setting you are really in a great spot for Rifles Only. They are definitely the go to place for tactical rifle instruction.

Take care, Craig

[ken hebert]

Define "long range", as it pertains to what you are looking for. And, is speed of follow-up shots a requirement for you?

Trying to get a sense of whether you are looking for sniper, varmit, long-range-match, hunting, or practical rifle skills.

I would think sniper and practical rifle would be where my interest lies. Speed of follow up shots is also a requirement. I am interested in starting to put on rifle matches at my home range in addition to my USPSA and 3-gun matches I already hold. I want to have the skills to demonstrate and hopefully pass on to shooters that I attract to the matches. How to range targets, dope wind--I'd like to end up able to engage targets accurately to 1000 yds. I know people throw that around a lot, but my home range is currently out to 600yds, and in the next few years it will be extended to a full 1000. We have invested in MGM flashers and other reactive steel to shoot such matches with.

What should I be looking for from these classes from such places as Tac Pro and Rifles Only? I mean what should I expect to get out of them? What kind of equipment is needed to attend?

Edited November 8, 2008 by ken hebert

[HiCapMag]

Ken, go to Rifles Only.

They have a PR1 and 2 combined class that takes you from the basics of position and trigger control to engaging targets in (usually) high wind out to 1000 yards....UKD target engagement....movers..... night shoots, etc.

Or, if you can get a spot, look for the various competitions at Rifles Only that are put on with Snipers Hide (snipershide.com). They usually offer a "Train Up" prior to the match that takes you through fundamentals, but also works on things that you might see at a match there.

Its all fun and good instruction by top quality folks.

riflesonly.com

Good luck....PM or ask here for any other info you need....or just call Jacob at RO.

Edit to add: on equipment, there is a list at the RO website. Essentially you need a rifle and scope with a mildot or similar ranging reticle, lots of quality ammo, log book or equivalent, good sling (A Tactial Intervention is highly recommended), backpack to carry your stuff and water and snacks, and a good attitude -- be the empty cup.

Edited November 8, 2008 by HiCapMag

[scottmilk9]

Rifles Only for sure. They are in Kingsville, TX Jacob and Lindy are some of the best teachers out there.

[dt1]

+1 Rifles Only. Take the PR 1 & 2 combo course if you can. You won't believe what Jacob, Frank and Lindy can teach you to do with your bolt rifle in a week's time.

[JKSNIPER]

Save your money and go to your local highpower rifle club.

Take the SAFS (Small Arms Firing School) class and get into Highpower rifle.

Most "cutting edge" sniper training is only available to military and L.E. snipers.

THere are a few orgs that will train civilians in "sniping".

IMHO you're better off spending the time and money to play in the highpower rifle game.

You'll learn more and faster and cheaper than if you spent the money to attend one of the famous training centers courses that allows civilian attendance.

On the highpower range you get advice and instruction handed out for free from some of the country's best shooters.

Just my .02

JK

[ken hebert]

The high power range around here is ... not exactly my kind of place, if you know what I mean. I did go over for one of their matches, as they are on the same range as one of my USPSA matches, same day. Not a single person spoke to me, barely made eye contact, just kinda huddled up and showed me their backs. Didn't seem like I was missing anything.

I have made contact with a very good instructor. The plan is to let him have his way with me ( ) first and then go do the Rifles Only course later in the year. (Next year) I am currently still working on the .243 I plan using for games. At present I still don't have the scope on it I want to end up with, but just a space filler to help me with load development. That, and I still need some more AICS 5 and 10 round mags.

We're getting there.

[John Dunn]

Most "cutting edge" sniper training is only available to military and L.E. snipers.

There's a difference between wanting to learn to hit reliably at distance and "cutting edge" sniper training. I doubt the OP wanted info on Ghillie suits, low crawling, hide construction, how to avoid thermal imaging, etc.

As far as "cutting edge" marksmanship with conventional rifle/ammo, there are no secrets available only to MIL/LE.

Highpower is too slow paced to appeal to me, but matches like the ITRC rock.

Rifles Only, Matt Burkett, Voigt, Cooley. All should get you started.

[JKSNIPER]

Correct JD that was my point.

Most "Sniper" marksmanship courses that they charge oodles of cash to civilians for cover things that are easily MUCH cheaper to learn on the Highpower range. There are NO secrets to marksmanship known only by LE MIL sipers that know the secret handshake (lol).

They call it a sniper course so they can charge you more money.

You can learn the same marksmanship stuff for MUCH less money and won't waste your time learning about ghillie suits etc.... from guys who will teach you about substandard stuff.

Buddy I have NEVER experienced highpower shooters showing their backs to ANYONE who truly shows up, asks questions, and wants to learn.

If thats true it would be a first I've heard of it.

I've seen loaning of weapons,gear, and best of all knowledge to fellow competitors a cameraderie I have not experienced among competitors in ANY sport except on the highpower/uspsa range.

Go to the local Small Arms Firing School run by a club and that will teach a lot to you.

There is a Jim Owens WWW.JARHEADTOP.COM that offers instruction and has dvd and books out there with great info in them. Not too expensive.

Good luck,

John

[Bret Heidkamp]

If you want to travel to Montana, contact me. You can also contact Matt Burkett which would be a little closer. The big 1/2 of training boils down to range time, you really need to develop a feel for wind and mirage reading. So, while an instructor can school you on the basics and what you need to work on, realize that it's like IPSC, you simply need rounds downrange under different light and mirage conditions.

I don't know if that is what you wanted to hear, but it's the truth as far as I'm concerned. Rifle is technical but very easy compared to IPSC.

[ken hebert]

Brett, I've been sending long, skinny bullets down range since I was a kid, usually killing deer. This was at the most 400 yards. What I want to learn is to take my weapon of choice and learn to hit, on the first shot, targets from 100 to 7-800, which I think is a reasonable distance. Honestly, I don't think I know how to correctly range targets or estimate wind, or all the other little things. What I want to know the correct things to learn, not what I think I should know. 'Ya know?

[Bret Heidkamp]

I hear ya. Sounds like one-on-one time. 7 to 800 first round hits are not tough at all, unless the conditions are Katrina, it's a perfectly reasonable distance. First round hits at 1K are more challenging, but still totally within reason on 12" plates. There are a number of basic topics that you can set out to learn without traveling to Montana. Do you have a practice range available with decent distance? Does your rifle hold at least 1/2 MOA or better out to 1K yards?

Sounds like you would learn a bunch shooting with someone that knows the game already, for sure, but you already have some basics (or bad habits, I haven't seen ya shoot! ). For example, I have a friend that trained with me and the last time we were out his new rifle shot 1-1/4" at 700. When we started together he knew nothing about long range shooting whatsoever. Now he is a serious threat anytime we are both at a match! Thank goodness he doesn't like to compete. To get to this point took some work, though. New optics, new rifle, load development, and trigger time on the UKD courses.

Equipment and setup is simply a large part of the game of long range rifle, I would say it is 60% or greater. To be able to hit a 700 yd. target and realize you were on the edge of the plate, move the rifle a couple inches, and have it smack the dead center of the plate is the accuracy you need to really learn, in my opinion. Anything else and you are just wasting ammo and time as your gear needs to be working 100%.

I am going to bulk out the precision rifle website with more shooting tips if I can get the time and motivation. There are some on there now, but I need to add video and some narratives. See the surprisingly dead forums at precisionrifle.org. There just don't seem to be too many people that really want to learn distance shooting, such as yourself.

Here's a couple tips to work on your estimating:

Grab your laser RF and go for a hike. Find a distant rock, tree, whatever and guess the yardage. Range it and see if you were on. Believe it or not, this works and pretty soon you'll be damn close to the real range. It really has freaked out people that I hunt with - being able to range by dead reckoning.

Now that you know the range, if you've got a good dope sheet your elevation should be pretty much done unless you need to adjust for angles. You do have dope sheets for the elevations and temps you shoot at, right?

The hard part is windage but it is really the same "feel" thing. Use a Kestral until you get good at it. There are some standard indicators such as the angle of wind socks, flags, etc, but I find those are usually not available. I end up sighting over sage and scrub grass half the time, which doesn't move much. Tall grasses and mirage work for telling direction but speed is often a "feel" thing and you have to pay attention to terrain features that may be isolating your muzzle from wind. Been burned by that before! But, only pay attention to wind on the first 1/2 of the distance for now unless conditions are abnormal. Wind at the target doesn't do a damn thing to your bullet flight, but that's what most people try to read! Go figure.

That's why I was saying range time is so important - there just isn't a substitute. I'll get a list up soon on what to work on for the PR site. I'm sure others will contribute some useful stuff.

[Modoc]

Brett,

Great info there! A bit off topic, but what size do they usually paint the white circle on the 400+ steel there at the Manhattan Club? My brother-in-law took me there last time we were out before going to the Sitz ranch .

I am looking forward to a return visit in about 2 years (too much spread between family).

[Bret Heidkamp]

Modoc,

Thanks!

The gong at 425 is about 24". It's pretty darned big, totally hittable offhand. I've hit it with my Open blaster.

If there was a white circle on it, that was done by a shooter as the gongs are usually all black. I wish that range had more distance, 425 is too short! Some of the High power guys wanted to shoot diagonally from the trap range #1 to the 425 backer, and get 600 yards but that didn't go over. I have a 1K place to shoot very near there.

There is also a new UKD course being set up near Boulder, MT I heard. That will make 3 courses in MT with UKD steel matches! Not to mention prairie dogs, which are a great UKD target...

[Boats]

Ken if you got a cold feeling from High Power over the course shooters you are not the first one. I don't know what it is about HP guys, think they are still in boot camp I guess.

I bet if you look up High Power Silhouette shooters in Texas you will get a completely different feeling. I worked down there a lot and carried my Silhouette rifles with me, had a warm reception in New Braufells Houston Port Arthur Beaumont etc Up in Louisiana too. Thing about Silhouette is its standing but the number of shots fired at distance is high and the trading off spotter shooter routine gives you lots of good experience. Watching is often more informative than shooting particularly if you can go to school on a good shooter. Varying range gives good sight adjustment experience too. We will often in practice shoot our Silhouette rifles to 500 meters at IDPA pistol targets stuck up and unknown distance any position. Most guys go prone or sitting. From Silhouette have a table of sights for distance that is very good at first shot zero hits. Our matches if not for prizes or sanctioned score allow any rifle somebody turns up with and many Sniper type guns shoot the match. Some very well too.

At our Club range the Silhouette shooters when shooting formal High power often win the match. Most of those guys can't shoot offhand which separates the good high power shooters from Want to Be's

Boats

[Modoc]

Bret,

It (the white dot) looked to be about 2-3 inches across, like a quick spot painted in the center. My 22-250 was grouping all of it's shots in that spot from a Bipod on the bench with the crosshair centered on the supporting cross bar . Now the pennies are being saved for a better scope with ranging capabilities. Is there a link to these UKD matches, and would a 22-250 be allowed?

You might know my Brother-In-Law, He's Jake Kleimer of Kleimer Electric in Belgrade.

I am hoping to make the next trip in conjunction with a shoot of some type or at least hit good weather for Prarie Dogs.

[Bret Heidkamp]

Sorry to everyone for the thread drift.

22-250 is hard on the steel, as it usually zips right on through on the closer targets. We do allow 223, so I have to check but it's probably OK for the 22-250 and we'll just suck it up with any steel damage. I'm guessing it's a heavy barrel varmint rig, so it would put you in precision rifle category (vs. Hunter class) which makes you shoot the longer targets with it (1K and a wee tad further in places). It is hard to spot 22 cal hits on the long targets at times.

The scope doesn't have to range but needs to have good clicks w/ target knobs. Any reticle will do, mil slashes work really well (MOA slashes if you're clicking in MOA; mils work best if you are clicking in mils (cm)). We've yet to do "sniper" challenges of mil ranging although we've discussed it. The courses and people are more about shooting vs. anything else. There is talk of a future 50bmg course at one of the ranges (Augustis).

I think I do know Jake. Get in touch if you head this way - stick with June or so for good PD weather...and head over toward east of Billings.

PM me if you want more detail so we don't destroy Ken's thread anymore...sorry Ken.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Bret Heidkamp

[ken hebert]

Post what ya'll want, doesn't bother me at all. I may pick up something useful. Feel free to talk about match dynamics too, I need to learn what goes on at one.

[Boats]

Match dynamics are interesting, Pretty dramatic difference in the way competitors relate to each other during a match.

On the negative side you have to put High power over the course with service rifles, and Small Bore position matches. Lots of team vs team and "gamesmanship" better called Head Games I say. High power have seen some pretty bad temper at times. Sort of like Golf seem some things thrown at times.

On the friendly side help each other out would be the Old rifle games muzzle loaders Black powder cartridge etc. Seems the newer sports are much more friendly too, IDPA guys go out of there way to help a new shooter.

Best shooters use the match to advantage, Conditions get tough, guys get mad, they beat themselves, Cool heads thrive on difficult conditions. Coolest of all shoot each shot one at a time never let what happened last shot or what they need to do next affect there presentation. Best way to be is oblivious to anybody else, tune them out. That is not particularly good for learning you need to interact to learn. However on match day better to observe quietly. Could be the tuning out part was what you saw at a High power match. I shoot the low stress matches and try to be nice to everybody, but don't want to talk much while shooting. Save that for later.

Boats

Edited December 8, 2008 by Boats

[HiCapMag]

On match dynamics...if you don't get by Snipers Hide much, here is the Course of Fire for the match that was just completed at Rifles Only (no I did not get to go )

2008 SH Bash COF

1. 100 yard Cold bore shot on a 1 inch dot. Numbers were scrambled and you had to find your target and dot and shoot in 45 seconds. 100 Points

2. 100 yards 10 shots rapid bolt on 10 1 inch dots in 60 seconds. 10 points each.

3. KYL at 100 yards shot weak side. 100 points total.

4. Sprint from 100 to 20 yards and fire 5 pistol shots on 5 inch target. Each worth 20 points. Then drop down and fire 1 rifle shot at 20 yards on 1 inch dot worth 100 points in 55 seconds.

5. 10 yards fire 5 shots on the 10 inch moving steel plate. 20 points each.

6. 5 pistol shots on 5 inch target worth 20 points each. Once you fire first shot you have 30 seconds before the mover starts to run. You had to sprint to pipe setup and fire 5 shots on 3 mph mover at 350 yards each shot worth 25 points.

7. 3 shots at 800 yards on larue plate point value for each shot was 100/50/25 you fire all 3 shots and add up the values for each shot hit 175 total points.

8. 3 shots at 1000 yards on larue plate point value for each shot was 100/50/25 you fire all 3 shots and add up the values for each shot hit 175 total points.

9. Dos Equis challenge 1 shot at 500 yards on a beer bottle 100 points.

10. Night fire pistol course 200 points total. 5 mini silhouettes and 4 head flopper targets. 55 seconds to complete.

11. 500 yard Cold bore off tower onto a 10 inch plate.

12. 600 yards 5 shots on 10 inch plates in 30 seconds. 20 points each.

13. 435 yard super mover, 1 pass each way on a 4 mph mover. 20 shots max 10 points a hit.

14. 100 yard barricade drill 3 shots from strong and weak sitting, strong and weak kneeling, and 3 shots standing. 15 shots. In 4 minutes. 10 points each?

15. Stewie’s Pit run and gun. No stage brief you did what you were told on the fly. 4 minute drill. Drill was 2 rounds from table out window onto your 3 inch dot, run out to pistol barricade and fire 5 pistol shots on your dot, run to wood barricade and 2 rounds rifle on dot, run into bus 2 out window on dot, run to table to take a UKD shot on a 330 yard target 2 shots max scored 100/50/0 run into tunnel 2 shots kneeling or sitting on dot out to trench and 1 round pistol.

16. UKD shot from run and gun!!

17. KD course 2 rounds strong and 2 rounds weak hand at 500 yards. 100 points total 25 per shot on a 5 inch target.

18. KD course 2 rounds strong and 2 rounds weak hand at 400 yards. 100 points total 25 per shot on a 5 inch target.

19. KD course 2 rounds strong and 2 rounds weak hand at 300 yards. 100 points total 25 per shot on a 3 inch target.

20. KD course 2 rounds strong and 2 rounds weak hand at 200. 100 points total 25 per shot on a 2 inch target.

21. KD course 2 rounds strong and 2 rounds weak hand at 100. 100 points total 25 per shot on a 1 inch target.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthread...2941&page=2

[ken hebert]

Now thats something I've been looking for, a real match set-up and course of fire. Some, if not most of that stuff, I can set up at my home range, though maybe not all at the same time. Not enough targets. Yet. But I can go out to 500 there.

something to think about... thank you.

[kgunz11]

Don't forget about the guys at Badlands in Oklahoma. Bobby Whittington and crew give EXCELLENT instruction at a very reasonable rate.

Here is a list of their course dates and cost:

Badlands course dates